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OT Hydrogen economy, not?

T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
It has to do with a little-known science called "thermodynamics". Look
it up some time.

Aha, so it's thermodynamics and not waste heat...?

That's done occasionally here, but in the US power plants tend not to
be located in urban centers. Low-grade (ie, lots of calories at low
temperature) heat is hard to use. And an efficient power plant dumps
only low-grade heat. I suspect that, if power plant cooling water is
hot enough to be used to heat a city, the plant efficiency suffers.

Electricity efficiency may suffer, but over all energy efficiency
increases.

As the residents uses the heat, their need for electricity decreases.
This is especialy true in the wintertime when energy demand is at its
highest.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
It's not too far though. It is true that new state-of-the-art plants
running natural gas are much higher (GE's H-series approach 60%).

Is that a co-gen or heat recovery type ? Not many of them around. Siemens do
some of that kind of stuff too I think.

The simple heat-rate of coal plants can be higher than 30% (often in the
mid
40's), but the fuel handling energy to move the coal around the yard and
process it typically doesn't show up in the stated heat-rates.

And it all counts.

Maybe had I said 33% there may have been less complaint. But it's not a high
figure taking into account the quantity of historic plant. Older generation
Nukes are about 33% thermally efficient too even BEFORE transmission losses.


Distribution losses of course can vary but are in the range of 5 to 7%.

I've heard as high as 10% in some cases.

Graham
 
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Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Sure it suffers, but if you look at the whole setup, overall fuel usage is
better. The 'trick' is to pay the plant for that low-grade heat in such a
way that it's economical to run with lower plant efficiency (even when
district heating is not needed in summer).

Netherlands has found it benefits society overall to use the 'hi-grade'
energy in power production and the 'low-grade' energy in domestic heating.
I believe the plant and district heating are operated by the same agency so
they aren't focused on just power plant efficiency.

Or you can heat your home and hot-water with natural gas that has a flame
temperature of 1950C (~3500F) and 'waste' all that entropy heating air or
water to 140F. While a modern, condensing, gas furnace may have an
efficiency of >93% (of LHV), it is terribly 'wasteful' of entropy. The high
differential temperatures across the heat exchanger means entropy is being
created at a very high rate. Think about it.

I totally agree. Co-gen needs more development.

It's not THAT long ago each town had its own power (and potentially heat)
station. The efficiency enhancements are wicked.

And it's not really very difficult.

Graham
 
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Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Actually, a couple of research projects were done in the 80's about
servo-controlled control rod systems for small reactors. The control
algorithm could raise power up to a couple of MW for a prescribed time and
then lower power back down to the sub kW range in about 10 seconds.

Shame the RBMK didn't work like that ! :-(

Graham
 
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Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Needless to say this was *not* a typical, low enrichment LWR design ;-).
But it was considered for certain, ahem... 'mobile' applications and money
was not much of a concern.

Thaty military one you mean whose name eludes me now ? Killed 3 ? operators
due to a control rod problem ?

Graham
 
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Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trygve said:
Electricity efficiency may suffer, but over all energy efficiency
increases.

As the residents uses the heat, their need for electricity decreases.
This is especialy true in the wintertime when energy demand is at its
highest.

Why this has never spread more widely to other countries that have cold
winters has always baffled me. I'm sure I knew about it at least 25 years ago
(probably more).

Graham
 
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Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
...not to mention that diversion of corn makes for higher corn prices =
higher meat costs (corn fed cattle), higher corn-based food costs etc.
Which has already taken place...

Eat less meat and many problems would be solved including better human health.

Graham
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore is known for illogical ejaculations from time to time..... Pay no
attention to Graham, he's gone balmy.

Allthough I often disagree with Graham, he often have many good
points.
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
He's British. Their math skills are as bad as their dental care.

Aparently you are not British, as you would then have a hint of good
behaveour.
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
|
|
| Calab wrote:
|
| > So you think it's easier to go install a pollution containment system
all
| > ALL the engines out there
|
| What pollution ? Have you any idea how clean burning modern engines are ?
|
| If CO2 IS a problem and there's a hell of a lot of doubt about it, despite
the
| alleged 'consensus', it makes more sense to capture it in large plants
located
| all over the country for deep burial or whatever.

Finally... a reply that DOESN'T sound totally condescending.

True, new cars are MUCH better these days. How good will they be after five
years of service though?

...and a couple questions related to this thread.

If gasoline is such a great way to store portable energy, why can't a fuel
cell be developed to get at that energy instead of burning it?

Also, has anyone considered the "heat" pollution from our modern world? I
know that it's relatively small compared to the heat that hits us from the
sun, but doesn't all those engines, and nuclear plants, and coal plants, and
air conditioning, etc. all affect our environment?

I have been thinking the same thing, but apparently the effects are
local and neglible compared with the ammount of heat that comes from
the sun.

The thing about global warming, is that slightly more of that heat is
contained on earth instad of dispersing into the universe.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trygve said:
The thing about global warming, is that slightly more of that heat is
contained on earth instad of dispersing into the universe.

And this is directly 'albedo'. Now if only people could concentrate on examining
chages in albedo and the reasons instead of ppms of CO2 we might get somewhere.

Graham
 
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Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trygve said:
Allthough I often disagree with Graham, he often have many good
points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant
" Subcritical fossil fuel power plants can achieve 36–40% efficiency."

Add those transmission losses and what do you get ?

My original figures came from Greenpeace UK literature btw.

Yes, newer plants can do better, but they are still in the minority.

Graham
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trygve Lillefosse wrote:

And this is directly 'albedo'. Now if only people could concentrate on examining
chages in albedo and the reasons instead of ppms of CO2 we might get somewhere.

I think that it may have a significant effect, imagine if all roofs
were painted white. Not sure how much that would contribute, but
still.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
So why aren't the farmers burning ethanol in their tractors?

Growing the corn is only the first step in the production process. Most
farmers don't have the facilities to continue the process beyond this first
step. They could buy the ethanol from a producer like everyone else, but
I'm sure they look at the economics of it. They must compare the price
against that of diesel.

And also consider the capital investment to buy a new tractor that can use
gasoline/ ethanol instead of diesel. That investment would be on
speculation that ethanol will be around for many years to come. And why
scrap their current machinery unless the cost difference is truly
significant.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ken said:
There are hydrocarbon fuel cells, most run on the methane series of
hydrocarbons, which includes gasoline (octane) and diesel oil
(cetane). They operate around 1800°F, though.
-S.L.Soo "Direct Energy Conversion" 1968 Prentice-Hall

But the important question is, "Are they any more efficient or economical
than a simple ICE?" At 1800F versus the combustion temperature in an ICE, I
doubt they're any more efficient. And manufacturing/maintenance costs might
be worse if the cells use 'exotic' materials that are difficult to produce.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn said:
You just need a moderator that changes density inversely with
temperature, and then virtually no rod movement is necessary to
change power. As you draw heat from the reactor, the moderator
cools a bit, increases density, automatically raising the core power
level. If you stop drawing power, the moderator heats up a bit, gets
less dense, and the power level decreases. The naval PWRs that I am
familar with have throttle response that is plenty good enough for
ship manuvering.

I'm quite aware of using negative moderator coefficient to control power.
Commercial PWR's also use this feature. But fuel temperature causes a lot
of negative feedback in low-enrichment reactors. Naval units have the
advantage of not having very much U-238 (cost of high enrichment is
'justified' on the ground of mission statement).

The research project I was referring to was able to ramp from sub kW to
about 2 MW in under 5 seconds, hold that power a precise amount of time and
then 'push' power back down to sub kW. Normally, power reduction would be a
problem thanks to some physics and a -1/3 SUR (or in BWR 'speak', a -80
second period).

Now, can you think of some government project that would be interested in
that sort of 'pulsed' power?? ;-)
The real problem (besides that minor radiation & safety thing) with
a small reactor is they don't yet make nuclear reactors with handy
crankshaft couplings sticking out of them. Nuclear reactors are
really just a heat source, so you still need a heat engine to do much
useful with them.

This project wasn't interested in a steam plant, but the 'minor radiation'
had some uses.
BTW: There have been several fission nuclear reactors launched into
space, so they don't need to be all that big.

Are you sure they were 'fission'? Many TNG's, but they weren't really
'fission reactors'. ISTR Voyager was one that was a 'concern' at the time
because it contained a toxic fuel, Pu.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
danny said:
In <[email protected]>


And then there's the one we left on that Russkie
underwater telephone cable when we tapped it over
in (or under) the Sea of Okhotsk...

Oh please. Go read 'Blind Man's Bluff'.

The wire taps were *not* nuclear powered. And there were more than one.
The boat responsible was also used several times to take divers to the tap
so that it could be serviced (batteries and blank tapes).

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:

Sorry, NO. I am not referring to SL-1. That was a relatively 'portable'
power plant built in the 50's that killed a crew performing maintenance one
night out in Idaho.

I'm referring to a more recent research project to develop some high powered
'pulses' for another project in the mid 1980's.

daestrom
 
D

danny burstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Growing the corn is only the first step in the production process. Most
farmers don't have the facilities to continue the process beyond this first
step. They could buy the ethanol from a producer like everyone else, but
I'm sure they look at the economics of it. They must compare the price
against that of diesel.

otoh, it's prett common to use the corn, or at least the
field remnants, for heating purposes.
 
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