Maker Pro
Maker Pro

OT Hydrogen economy, not?

T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jonathan Kirwan said:
I doubt there will be enough platinum.

Nah, there's enough platinum, or lithium (for batteries) or whatever around,
it's just that it'll get really, really expensive as that supply gets put
into major use.

Tim
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nah, there's enough platinum, or lithium (for batteries) or whatever around,
it's just that it'll get really, really expensive as that supply gets put
into major use.

I was listening to a chemist say that they really didn't know whether
or not there would be enough, given a strong enough commitment to
using fuel cells. Not necessarily an absolute authority, of course,
but good enough for conversation right now.

You have any figures to make a case one way or another? I'm curious
if that guy was close to right.

Jon
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jonathan Kirwan said:
I was listening to a chemist say that they really didn't know whether
or not there would be enough, given a strong enough commitment to
using fuel cells. Not necessarily an absolute authority, of course,
but good enough for conversation right now.

You have any figures to make a case one way or another? I'm curious
if that guy was close to right.

Well, let's see.

From Wikipedia...
"In 2002, typical cells had a catalyst content of US$1000 per kilowatt of
electric power output."

Concerning platinum:

"If all the world's platinum reserves were poured into one Olympic-size
swimming pool, it would be just deep enough to cover one's ankles." An
Olympic-size swimming pool is 25 x 50 m, and "just ankle high" is around,
oh, 4", or 0.1 m, so a volume of 125 m^3, or 2681 tonnes.

Platinum was around $550/oz., or $17.68/g in 2002.

Platinum reserves are estimated at 80 thousand tonnes, which at present
production (218 tonnes in 2005, see USGS docs) would take some 367 years to
deplete, so we're not running out of supplies soon, and there's a lot
available, but man does it take a lot of effort ( = continuing high market
price) to extract.

That swimming pool factoid sounds like bullshit, because we've been mining a
whole lot longer than ten years, even if not at the same rate. If the
entire ankle was meant (i.e. up to your knees), that would be 16,000 tonnes,
which seems a little more believable.

Getting back to fuel cells, if most of the cost is due to platinum (the
quote says catalyst, sure), then that's roughly $1k/kW or about $20k/car
(not counting SUVs, hybrid technology, etc.), which is, in turn, around 1.1
kg platinum. Taking the upper estimate of 16 kt, we could therefore make 16
million fuel-cell powered cars.

Finally...
"As of 2002, there were 590 million passenger cars worldwide."

So, the correct answer does indeed appear that there ain't a chance in hell
that we're going to use today's fuel cells in any large proportion of
today's automobiles!

One final statistic to close with. Even if it would only make 16M cars, all
that platinum is currently worth (today's prices) $971 billion. Which is a
mere 7.4% of the U.S. GDP (and about how much the Iraq war is going to cost
in the long run).

Tim
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon John said:
Do you have any factual basis to back up that assertion which is silly on
its face?

No, unfortunately, although I find it amusing that you go on for three more
pages attempting to contradict my non-existent facts! ;-)

I found that statistic while researching a short essay, unfortunately the
website referenced within changed its links and now I don't know where the
hell I saw that. It was on a government website, I believe Austrailian.
And hey, if you doubt my references, I got an "A" on that assignment, so
pfffbt on you. :^)

I also found numbers stating that, if all our energy needs were filled with
nuclear power only, we would have somewhere between 3(!) and 50 years of
nuclear power, no more. That low figure probably incorporates exponential
growth, readily available uranium reserves and no reprocessing, while the
other may or may not account for any of these factors. I don't know, it
wasn't specified. Even the advertized upper bounds such as 300 years are
depressingly short, considering coal reserves alone will last about as long!

If you'd like to see the essay anyway I could forward it. I don't remember
if I used that statistic or not.
There is certainly no modern data in this country to base your
assertion on ...

Obviously then, it wasn't. Of note, France and Japan have reprocessing
facilities; Japan in particular was in the news for a criticality accident
at one plant. You can find it near the top of a list of nuclear incidents
if you'd like to read about it.

Tim
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
Except for some control details, the internal combustion engine hasn't
changed much in 100 years. Crank, pistons, rings, poppet valves, spark
plugs, camshaft, clutch of some sort, geared transmission, water
jacket, radiator, oil pump. That's impressive.

On one level that is true; on another level, it's not even close.

It is not just IC engines that haven't change in basic principle over the
last 100 years: I was once a reactor operator on a nuclear submarine. A
nuclear ship simply uses a steam engine with a nuclear heat source, and it turns
out that steam plants are another thing that "haven't changed". Back then, I
was able to go down in the engine room of a Spanish-American war-era museum
ship and accurately trace out the function of every major valve and control.
You see, "a steam plant is a steam plant". Does that mean that the propulsion
plant of my SSBN was really anything like that of the old cruiser? Not on your
life!

My first car was a 1955 Ford V8. It managed 6 or 7 MPG back when gas was
19.9 cents a gallon. I drive that car until it had 100,000 miles on the clock.
By 100,000 miles, my engine was so worn out that the pistons were nearly
swapping holes. There was no way that it would have manged another 100,000
miles without a major rebuild. Oh yes, by then the car was on its second drive
train, both transmission and rear end had been replaced. That engine took lots
of routine maintenance. Valves needed to be kept adjusted, oil passages needed
to be purged, the distributer needed regular maintenace, the carb needed
occasional cleaning and rebuilding. It burned oil, but that was OK because I
could buy filtered, used oil at many gas stations for 10 cents a quart. That
car was terrible for the environment! Oh yes, several expensive parts, such as
universal joints and front end joints, were considered temporary "wear" items
back then. It needed a new muffler about once a year. Hell, even the radio
took constant and potentially expensive maintenance (mostly tubes and
vibrators).

Did I mention that I loved my old Ford?

In contrast, my Honda Civic does not even need the spark plugs changed until
after the first 100,000 miles. At that point, I will consider it nicely broken
in. For gas mileage, there is just no comparison between my Civic and that old
Ford. For impact on the environment, there also is no comparison. That Civic
has no carburator and no distributer, so they can't break. There are some very
basic improvements in combustion over my old Ford that improve both efficiency
and emissions. I can start up my Civic on a cold morning and just drive, while
I had to fuss with the Ford and warm it up before it would produce significant
power or exhibit useful driveability.

Saying that the IC engine in my old Ford was anything like the IC engine in
my '01 Civic is only true on the most basic level. Yes, they both use the same
basic cycle, the function of the major internal parts of my Civic's engine would
be obvious to any 1920's auto mechanic, but the comparison stops there!

When it comes to cars, they don't make them like they used to; and I am glad!

Vaughn
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon John said:
mess.




Which mess is that? Well, OK, my cabin's in a bit of a mess right now because
I've been spending too much time on these internets but other than that, I
look around but I can't see any messes. From up here on the mountaintop,
everything looks peachy.

Air pollution, water pollution, stuff like that. California is a filthy,
disgusting place. I won't even go in the ocean any more. If you want to
buy land here first you have to find out if the ground water is contaminated
with arsenic from old gold mines and make sure your aquafer is not
downstream from some toxic waste site.
 
N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
This alone would go a long way toward reducing our energy consumption.
We simply need to find ways to use what we have efficiently.

Ah the energy equivalent of a hair vest. The energy used by your computer
while you typed this was 100% waste so there is a start for you.
--
 
J

James Arthur

Jan 1, 1970
0
Martin said:
John Larkin wrote:


I am in full agreement with you there. It also drives prices of grain
up out of reach of the poorest.

Only the power of the US corn lobby could ever have got this one off
the ground.

No! It started as an environmentalist / sustainable /
alternative energy / anti-global-warming thing.

Al Gore invented it:
http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OVP/speeches/farmj.html

"I was also proud to stand up for the ethanol tax exemption
when it was under attack in the Congress -- at one point,
supplying a tie-breaking vote in the Senate to save it. The
more we can make this home-grown fuel a successful,
widely-used product, the better-off our farmers and our
environment will be." --Al Gore, Speech, Dec. 1, 1998

In the 2000 edition of his book "Earth In The Balance":
"by tripling U.S. use of bioenergy and bioproducts
by 2010, we can keep millions of tons of greenhouse
gases out of the air...."

Cheers,
James Arthur
 
D

danny burstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
In said:
Well, it brought us amongst other things the gasoline additive MTBE.
Several years and contaminated wells later it was "Oh s..t!".

Not to mention a lawsuit, using NAFTA as the hook, by
a Canoodian company claiming that California's concerns
about MTBE (which cancelled the company's future shipments)
were superceded by that little bit of international paper.

(Methanex vs. California, or maybe vs. the US,
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2005/50964.htm )
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
<snip>
Heh, heard today abotu a dairy farmer in CA who extracts the methane from
teh manure produced by his cows - teh methane would be goign into the
atmosphere in either even, but what he does is uses the methane to power
his entire spread, so he doesn't have to buy any electricity.

The other benefit is that (1)CH4 + (2)O2 --> (2)H2O + (1)CO2.. In
short, besides using up a little breathable oxygen, which we can
afford to do, it exchanges a possible CH4 released into the air for a
CO2 released. Since CH4 has a radiative efficiency of about 370 uW
m^-2 ppb^-1. That's an instantaneous slope, of course, but it gives
an idea of where it is, right now. By comparison, CO2 has a radiative
efficiency of 14 uW m^-2 ppb^1. So if you gotta dump one, you might
prefer to dump CO2 rather than CH4. (The CH4 figure I mentioned
includes known indirect effects from the creation of stratospheric H2O
[most of what little moisture does occur there is from CH4 converting
to H2O] and from related ozone enhancements.)

Another important difference, though, is that CH4 doesn't last in the
atmosphere. It's tau is 12 years. By comparison, CO2 has at least
three taus below 1000 years (it has some above that), including 1.2,
19, and 170 years. CO2 remains well-mixed, as well. So that might
inure the other way.

Another is that extra CH4 reduces partial pressures of tropospheric
-OH radicals, which removes them from their use in otherwise scrubbing
the troposphere of pollutants. That works to wanting to release CO2.

And I'm sure there are other considerations I don't know anything
about. Of course, none of that addresses the fact that this farmer
doesn't have to tap into electricity, which is probably one of the
highest valued forms of energy and which has a huge impact on warming,
indirectly. So all in all, sounds like an excellent success story.

Jon
 
J

James Arthur

Jan 1, 1970
0
Martin said:
James said:
No! It started as an environmentalist / sustainable /
alternative energy / anti-global-warming thing.
[...]
Al Gore invented it:
[...]
In the 2000 edition of his book "Earth In The Balance":
"by tripling U.S. use of bioenergy and bioproducts
by 2010, we can keep millions of tons of greenhouse
gases out of the air...."

I am on record here as saying that Al Gore is a hypocrite from the
"don't do as I do, do as I say" school of leadership.

Yes, noted. But Al Gore did this thing, not the farm lobby.

He's been shrieking for years that alternative energy is being
suppressed, isn't getting enough funding, is a critical
emergency for the planet, accusing his political opponents
of being complicit or responsible.

Al Gore wanted us to triple our use of biofuels, he pushed it,
and that's exactly what we've done, from 3e6 to 9e6 gallons of
ethanol per annum from then to now, mandated by Congress
per his vision, at his insistence and persistence.

Farm collectives across America have literally bet their farms
building ethanol plants based on the policies Al Gore
propounded, based on Al Gore's recommendations for saving
the planet.

Too bad he advocated so vociferously never having bothered
to do the math.

And, mark my words: this is a bubble (corn-based ethanol),
uneconomic, unsustainable, and many farmers will be ruined
when it bursts a few years on.

Not to mention inflation, shock to the economy, and the
calamity higher prices and scarcer food present to the
world's poor.

All because our Nobel prize-winning calamitologist Al Gore
skipped some basic arithmetic.

Fortunately everything else that Al Gore says is carefully
checked and true.

Best regards,
James Arthur
 
J

James Arthur

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
And kill a couple of hundred million kids who can't vote Democrat.

It would be ironic if Al Gore winds up killing more innocents than
Stalin and Mao and Hitler combined. He has a good shot at it.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Thing is, it looks like he just wants to get rich.
Which he already is, but wants more. Which makes
him greedy too.

When millions die--because they certainly will die one
way or another--he'll be the first to blame someone
else. Or global warming.


James Arthur
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
Heh, heard today abotu a dairy farmer in CA who extracts the methane from
teh manure produced by his cows - teh methane would be goign into the
atmosphere in either even, but what he does is uses the methane to power
his entire spread, so he doesn't have to buy any electricity.

Does good in so many ways...

1. Removes smell
2. "Free" energy
3. When burnt, it turns into CO2, witch is a much less potent
greenhouse gas than Methane.
4. Noo need for transport
5. Less local pollution
6. A product that can be sold.
7.May potentialy be shipped by pipes
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
But back then there were more durable cars and engines. A friend drove a
Mercedes 170D from 1950, like this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mercedes_170_DS.JPG

It had more than 200k miles on it, engine was fine, didn't use much oil
and netted about 30mpg (Diesel fuel). The problem over there in Europe
was body rust and the fact that TUEV requires roadworthiness checks

I have an 2001 MB E200 Diesel that is getting a mix of kerosene and
diesel. It used to run on biodiesel but supplyer went belly up. It
also get the odd liter or two of pure vegetabile oil.

It has run 535.000 Km, even though most of them were done as a
taxi.:)
I try not to use it more than nessesary.

Anyway, exept for some rust (That model is known to rust a lot) and a
bit "hard" running engine, it is realy-realy good. And it only sipps
diesel- Almost like a ballerina beeing offered cake.
 
T

Trygve Lillefosse

Jan 1, 1970
0
A little thought? Study a modern (as in after, say, 1950 or so) steam
power plant. They have preheaters, superheaters, recirculators,
economizers, multi-stage turbines, hydrogen-cooled generators, every
trick known to thermodynamics to squeeze every fraction of a per cent
out of the fuel.

Then why are there a lot of hot water coming ou from them?

In the Netherlands, they use the excess energy to heat homes. (Hot
water is cirkulated under the steets in isolated pipes.)
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon said:
I'm still here. You can talk to me in the first person.


Well, the royal socialist "we" don't need to do anything. If you
mean by "we" that the government should force some central-planned
"solution" on us then Hell No.

The problem with this concept of using the soft energy sources that
the green weenies advocate is that they never do any math and don't
realize the magnitude of the country's energy demand.

Consider one little tidbit. In a recent issue of "Utility/T&D", a
utility trade rag, they proudly announced that about 1500 megawatts
of wind generation is installed in this country.

Whoop-de-doo. A SINGLE large nuclear unit produces 1200 megawatts.
In other words, all those ugly wind turbines that occupy so much land
and are such eye-sores make barely more power than one nuke unit.

And you only get those 1500 MW when the wind is blowing at 'design'
conditions at all those sites at the same time. Since that doesn't happen,
you only get about 25-30% capacity factor. Compared with a nuc's +93%, that
means the *energy* output of one nuc is about 3 times *all* those wind units
combined.

Understand that most nuclear PLANTs have two units. Some have three.
A nuclear plant never quits generating when the wind stops.

Just to displace the current fleet of coal plants, we'd (I use "we"
as a utility engineer) need to build about 300 nuclear plants. (This
rough estimate is based on there being about 100 operating plants
that represent about 25% of the national electrical generation.)

It's more than that. Nuc only accounts for 19.8% of the electric used and
there are 104 operating reactors. So that puts the total need at about 525
reactors.

About 2/3s of a conventional nuclear plant's thermal energy
production is wasted, either going up the cooling towers as hot air
and water vapor or into the river as slightly warm water. This
represents an immense amount of energy but it is unusable because it
is of such low quality (highly entropic). At least on a large scale.

Yet some European countries have found ways to use it for domestic heating.
There *are* some uses for low-grade heat that could be supplied by 'waste'
heat instead of burning hi-grade fuel such as natural gas.

daestrom
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Calab said:
| Calab wrote:
|
| > - Hydrogen is plentiful and found EVERYWHERE.
|
| Pardon ? Where are the hydrogen wells ?

You don't need wells... You need pumps. The oceans have a great deal of
hydrogen in them waiting to be "cracked".

You haven't the tiniest clue what you're talking about. On top of which salt
water is HIGHLY corrosive and will destroy almost any steel vessel.

| > - Hydrogen is simple to produce. This means that you can have many more
| > smaller hydrogen plants spread out to where the demand is, instead of
one
| > single gasoline plant. This saves on transportation costs, and helps
with
| > local economies.
|
| Uh ?

A plant producing hydrogen does not need to be large or complicated,

Says who ?

so it
can be scaled down to match the size of the economy. For example... How much
gasoline is produced in Hawii? None.

They import it obviously if that's true.

A hydrogen plant could easily be placed
there and meet the needs of the population. How much in transporation costs
would that save? Now consider that with the volcanic activity, they could
use thermal power to generate the electricity needed to crack the hydrogen
from sea water.

You're living in a fantasy world.

| > At this point, cars based on fuel produced by electricity are the
future. Whether the fuel is electricity in a battery; hydrogen in a tank to
power combustion or power a fuel cell;

A mere 50% efficiency for fuel cells, after deducting another 50% efficiency or
so to make and store/compress/liquify the H2, so at very best you get back 25%
of the energy you started with. Electrolyse it fron coal or oil powered
electricity which is ~ 33% efficient including transmission losses and you'd get
about 8% of the energy back.

Burn it in an ICE (cutting out the fuel cell) and you're down to about 4%
efficiency source to destination.

I'll pass on that one.
or something completely different, it
all means that the vehicles are no longer producing the pollution.
|
| A whole flock of them flew over there !

???

Anyhow... I'm not saying that hydrogen is the answer. I'm just saying that
it is feasable.

Not, it's the biggest boondoggle in history. If you had a good scientific
education, you could see every crack in its armour.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon said:
Please. Tell me you're a high school kid who's simply spouting what you've
been propagandized with. Surely you don't believe any of that stuff. Do you?
Really?

Sadly this is what Gore et al are responsible for.

I'm intending to write to the Nobel Prize Commission to the effect that when his propaganda has
finally been vilified, he should have his prize removed.

I would encourage you to do the same.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Calab said:
|
| >The big things with hydrogen are:
| >
| >- The pollution is generated at the source (the power plant) instead of
| >where it's used (the car). This makes the pollution generated easier to
| >contain BEFORE it gets into the environment.
|
| No it isn't.

So you think it's easier to go install a pollution containment system all
ALL the engines out there (not just vehicles) instead of containing the
pollution at a single plant where the electricity is produced? Please
explain.

GOOD LORD.

Is that what they teach you at school now ? How do you plan to 'contain' all
this pollution at the electric plant ? Never mind an electric plant is only ~30%
efficient including transmission losses.

Graham
 
Top