Cellemetry performance question

[W. Rantala]

Has anyone noticed any degradation of reliability with the North
American Cellemetry data network lately, especially in the
registration direction? We are currently bringing issues to the
attention of Numerex/Cellemetry, and would be very interested to know
if other customers are experiencing problems.

What we have noticed is a higher degree of message loss attributable
to server issues at the Cellemetry NOC center, affecting the overall
reliability of 2 way communication.

Thanks,
Wayne Rantala
ZTR Control Systems

 

[thesatguy]

I have noticed that since local companies offer unlimited internet access
via your cellphone as a gimmick to get peeps to sign up for cell service, we
often cannot get through period.

It used to be when I first installed Uplink units the second you opened the
Elk Cell box the light would come on and within a second or two the other
light would start flashing which indicates the transmission is in progress.

Now, when you open the boxes it is not unusual to wait 40-60 seconds or more
to get that same response and we have had burglars destroy several units
that no signals ever were received from even though they cut the telephone
lines outside of the buildings probably 15 minutes before they ever got
inside. I have stopped using Uplink because clearly there is a problem but
the problem seems to be with the locals cell sites being too busy to carry
traffic. Since we're talking overhnight midnight-5am this makes no sense.
There is a five second time-delay when the line goes dead until the
transmitter trips; I test these things all the time and they work every time
except when people break in. I have added a relay to many installs to fire
a cell signal every time the alarm system is turned off or on and at the 24
hour test interval. Yet we still seem to miss signals.

I had no idea there was a problem somewhere else.

 

[Reg Siemens]

Sending TLM failures via Uplink was specifically NOT recommended by Uplink.
The reason for this is that the first signal from an Uplink transmits quite
quickly, subsequent signals take significantly longer as they wait for
acknowledgement before the next will be sent. In our testing, the first
signal gets sent typically in less than 20 seconds, however subsequent
signals are often 2 minutes or more apart. So in our experience it is
critical that you set it up so that the first signal the Uplink sends is the
important one i.e. the burg event. Compound your problem with the fact that
most TLM circuits have a delay built in to avoid nuisance alarms and I can
understand how you are having systems compromised by thieves that take the
phone line down prior to the break-in. So while cell service might indeed
have degraded, perhaps a change in your setup could minimize the impact???

Reg

 

[thesatguy]

What the heck would you use it for if not for line failure?

Elk Cell Pack has power supply and teleinephone line monitor all-in-one unit
with telephone line monitor set to trip in 5v seconds. Thats way too fast
for my liking but the other option is 90 seconds so I use the 5 second
setting.

The first trip should be immediate - I don't care about any additional
signals - when we get a line fault signal we will poll that panel right then
to see if the line is really dead. It's the delay caused by the busy cell
site that is the problem and why in the hell is the cell site busy at 4 am?
It makes no sense.

 

[A.J.]

It's the design of the technology. First signal goes out immediately, and
then 2 minutes apart there after for other signals. Take a certain
communicator for example, trips on 5 zones will take 10 minutes to transmit
the whole buffer, and if during that time, a fire zone is also trip, the
fire signal will send on the 12th minute. Scarely huh ?

 

[Reg Siemens]

The purpose is to communicate a burglary event regardless of land-line
availability. Why do you care if the line goes down? Frankly the REALLY
important signal is the alarm event. Perhaps your phone lines are more
reliable than ours around here, but I wouldn't want to be generating a work
order everytime one of our subscribers phone lines goes down for storm,
service, malfunction or any number of reasons. Set up the cellemetry backup
so that it transmits only alarm conditions and you're going to get reliable,
fast, secured monitoring that works. Saddle the Uplink with TLM
transmissions and you generate a bunch of nuisance work orders and
compromise your security when it's an actual alarm event. FWIW that's the
approach we've taken and it's worked reliably for years.

Reg

 

[Reg Siemens]

Thought about this a little more and based on your procedure, I have a
question. If you get a line fault and then poll the panel to find that the
line really is dead, what do you do??? Dispatch authorities to bust a phone
technician doing service in the area??? Send your technician to check it
out only to waste precious time in the event of an actual B&E???

Another possibility...are you using the ELK TLM module to shunt Uplink
transmissions when it doesn't sense a TLM fault? While I'm not familiar
with the capabilities of the ELK TLM module there are ways to make some TLM
modules happy while blocking an outgoing call.

Reg

 

[thesatguy]

Why would we care if the line goes down? Because you don't get any signals
with no phone line.
Setting up a cellemtry unit to transmit alarm signals is a total waste of
time cause you don't get any.

In most cases - at least once a week - burglars cut the phone lines at the
pole and then cut a hole in the roof directly above the alarm panel and
proceed to cut every wire they can find. Usually theres around 15 minutes
before they get into the building after cutting the phone lines. Our runner
can be there in 20 minutes in many cases.
Obviously sending the police is a waste of time because of their slow
response times. It's not unusual to catch peeps on the roof or behind the
buildings when we get there

 

[thesatguy]

If you get a line fault and the panel doesn't respond you send a runner if
the premises is closed - end of story.
There are no phone guys working on lines at 3am.
The Elk module can shunt when the phone lines are okay but I have no desire
to do that. If the lines are okay we will get signals from the panel and
the Uplink unit and thats fine.

 

[Frank Olson]

How did they know where to cut the hole for the panel? Sounds like someone
knows an awful lot about where the panels are located! Wonder who knows that
information?

The information's available on the internet. It's called the "Burglar
Pages" (like "TheYellow Pages"). It lists stores and commercial premises by
address and tells you all sorts of neat stuff like what kind of alarm the
guy has and where the CP is located.

Seriously... I think they call it "casing the joint". It doesn't take
much. I had to replace a proximity reader at the side entrance to a
building this morning. Some nut figured that if he smashed the reader with
a rock the door would "magically" open. The reader's installed on a
concrete wall with the wires terminating in a tampered box located on the
back wall of a small corner grocery store in the building.

I walked up to the store's only counter carrying my tool belt and a small
cardboard box (with the new reader inside) and simply told the person that I
was working on the access control system for the building and needed to get
to the wires at the back of her store. She waved me through and it struck
me that with the way I was holding my belt and the carton there wasn't any
way for her to see my ID badge. After I finished my job, I went up to her
and told her that she should be a little more cautious next time and ask to
see ID before letting someone go into the more sensitive areas of her store
(her alarm control panel, telephone connections, and video surveillance
equipment were all back in the room I was working in). She basically
allowed a complete stranger into the back of her store because I looked like
a "worker".

The one question that begs to be answered... Should I go back and help
myself to those delicious looking carrot and blueberry muffins she had
cooling off in a rack back there??

 

[Jackcsg]

Actually....Sounds allot like downtown Baltimore, or even DC. I'm serious. I
don't think this thought pattern would actually work in high crime city. Out
in the sticks maybe where tree limbs fall on Telco lines, but the City? Land
lines are faster than 3rd party wireless, why wouldn't you use land first,
with wireless back-up? Didn't AlarmNet go down recently? Why would you use
third party wireless? I would use a standard cellular package long before
Uplink, or AlarmNet. Too Sloooow......

Jack

 

[Reg Siemens]

Why would we care if the line goes down? Because you don't get any
signals

with no phone line.

Maybe I'm missing something here but with a properly configured Uplink, you
do get the alarm signal without the phone line. This is precisely the
reason for the Uplink.

Setting up a cellemtry unit to transmit alarm signals is a total waste of
time cause you don't get any.

If your subscribers premise (or what's in it) is that desireable and they go
to these lengths to case your installs, then wouldn't you ensure that the
panel and Uplink is in a protected area that they can't get to without
tripping a zone well in advance of them being able to compromise the Uplink.
Our installations will generate an alarm if wires are cut between the panel
and the Uplink. The only hope would be that they get inside the Uplink box
and power it down before the signal is sent...virtually impossible with a
properly secured control panel/Uplink location.

My point is that with Cellemetry and the limitations of the network you need
to design your installation so that the important signals get sent first.
In my mind a burglary or fire signal is a lot more important than a TLM
failure which may or may not be an actual alarm event.

Reg Siemens

 

[Chuck]

This type of transmitter is used with battery operated RF sensors which are
independent of AC power.

 

[Reg Siemens]

This type of transmitter is used with battery operated RF sensors which
are

independent of AC power.

Now I'm REALLY confused...I have no idea what this has to do with the
thread.

Reg

 

[Spike]

Actually....Sounds allot like downtown Baltimore, or even DC. I'm serious. I
don't think this thought pattern would actually work in high crime city. Out
in the sticks maybe where tree limbs fall on Telco lines, but the City? Land
lines are faster than 3rd party wireless, why wouldn't you use land first,
with wireless back-up? Didn't AlarmNet go down recently? Why would you use
third party wireless? I would use a standard cellular package long before
Uplink, or AlarmNet. Too Sloooow......

Jack

What is a standard cellular package? I thought uplink and alarmnet were
cellular.

 

[fly in the ointment]

Spike wrote

What is a standard cellular package? I thought uplink and alarmnet were
cellular.

Like a Telguard classic, the original cell backup technology requiring a
cell #, and a lot more expensive. They send signals over the cell network
like a normal cell call. Can be used for voice, fax, etc.too.
http://www.telular.com/telguard/tgClassic.asp

Uplink is a cellemetry unit, like the Skyroute and Telguard Databurst,
sending short data bursts using the cellular control channel. The unit is
less expensive, and no cell account is necessary. The signals are processed
by their c/s, and forwarded to your c/s.
http://www.telular.com/telguard/tgDataBurst.asp
js

 

[Jackcsg]

I didn't say cheaper. Just Faster. And without the hands of Ademco
(Honeywell), or Uplink (GE?). But if you like a cheaper, slower, and paying
a third party ...go with it. It's only one persons opinion. I realize for
some it's the only option they can think of...

Jack

 

[fly in the ointment]

Jackcsg wrote

I didn't say cheaper. Just Faster. And without the hands of Ademco
(Honeywell), or Uplink (GE?). But if you like a cheaper, slower, and paying
a third party ...go with it. It's only one persons opinion. I realize for
some it's the only option they can think of...

No need to get your panties in a twist. He asked for an explanation. I've
used both cell backup and cellemetry units. As for the third party, what do
you call the cell service provider, a partner?

js

 

[Jackcsg]

Sorry, I lost count. 4th Party. I'm not disgruntle. And I don't think the
Telco receives my signals and re-transmits back to me, nor do I mind if they
use other companies switches to get it to me. I'm more of the Grade "AA"
type. But as I said, just an opinion. Chill fly

Jack

 

[Spike]

oooooh yah, now I remember... one uses the voice and the other the control
channel, thanks Jack.