OT: Hacking a turntable (think: vinyl)

[Don Y]

Hi,

I've been sorting out my old vinyl in preparation for
transcribing it to digital media. LP's and 45's are
easy to deal with. But, I have many 78's that I
simply can't "play" (unless I find a PoS "record player"
somewhere).

I was thinking of repurposing a Beogram 8000 to
support the 78's -- either hacking the controller
or "tricking" it (imposing a frequency multiplier
in the feedback circuit to make it think it is
running at a different speed).

Of course, I have no idea how the mechanism would
behave at that speed. Nor the cartridge, tracking
mechanism, etc.

Before *mangling* what is otherwise a decent turntable,
I wondered if just *playing* the records at, e.g., 45
and post-processing the resulting audio *digitally*
might give me "as good" results?

As above, there are similar issues with operating the
mechanism at 45 while the medium was intended for 78.
For example, the stylus/cartridge's low frequency response
gets taxed more heavily.

I'm not keen on determining this empirically as I
don't want to risk unnecessary wear on the media
*or* the stylus.

Suggestions?

 

[Syd Rumpo]

Hi,

I've been sorting out my old vinyl in preparation for
transcribing it to digital media. LP's and 45's are
easy to deal with. But, I have many 78's that I
simply can't "play" (unless I find a PoS "record player"
somewhere).

I was thinking of repurposing a Beogram 8000 to
support the 78's -- either hacking the controller
or "tricking" it (imposing a frequency multiplier
in the feedback circuit to make it think it is
running at a different speed).

Of course, I have no idea how the mechanism would
behave at that speed. Nor the cartridge, tracking
mechanism, etc.

Before *mangling* what is otherwise a decent turntable,
I wondered if just *playing* the records at, e.g., 45
and post-processing the resulting audio *digitally*
might give me "as good" results?

As above, there are similar issues with operating the
mechanism at 45 while the medium was intended for 78.
For example, the stylus/cartridge's low frequency response
gets taxed more heavily.

I'm not keen on determining this empirically as I
don't want to risk unnecessary wear on the media
*or* the stylus.

Suggestions?

Not really suggestions, just musings.

Over 35 years ago I worked for the BBC radio as a studio maintenance
technician. Great job - a 19 year old could destroy hundreds of pounds
worth of gear trying to fix it without really knowing which was the
sharp end.

Anyway. At that time, there was a whole department for transcribing 78
rpm (and many variations around that speed) disks onto tape. They used
real big turntables with huge motors, and proper heavy tone arms with
real steel needles. It was said that these fitted the grooves properly
and provided the best reproduction at the cost of wearing out he disk
more quickly. It was also said that the needles, being so large, would
have no truck with mere dust particles.

It all seemed to work.

Cheers

 

[Nico Coesel]

Hi,

I've been sorting out my old vinyl in preparation for
transcribing it to digital media. LP's and 45's are
easy to deal with. But, I have many 78's that I
simply can't "play" (unless I find a PoS "record player"
somewhere).

Google has its merits:
http://www.nextag.com/Audio-Technica-ATLP120USB-Turntable-676088979/prices-html

Specs:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/turntables/583f30b3a8662772/index.html

Its a bit heavy though.

 

[Gib Bogle]

Not really suggestions, just musings.

Over 35 years ago I worked for the BBC radio as a studio maintenance
technician. Great job - a 19 year old could destroy hundreds of pounds
worth of gear trying to fix it without really knowing which was the
sharp end.

Anyway. At that time, there was a whole department for transcribing 78
rpm (and many variations around that speed) disks onto tape. They used
real big turntables with huge motors, and proper heavy tone arms with
real steel needles. It was said that these fitted the grooves properly
and provided the best reproduction at the cost of wearing out he disk
more quickly. It was also said that the needles, being so large, would
have no truck with mere dust particles.

It all seemed to work.

I thought needles of Burmese plywood were preferred.

For those too young to get the reference (are there any here?):

On the back of Peter Sellers L.P. "Songs For Swingin' Sellers", it says..

(1) " Only use needles of Burmese plywood (obtainable for a few measly
coppers "pennies" at your local stockist.

(2) Wind gramophone and stand in an empty zinc bath.

(3) Point the horn due south and tilt at an angle of 37 degrees Fahr.to
the perpendicular

(4) Send Grandma out of the room !"

 

[Adrian Jansen]

The easiest is to get a belt drive turntable, its not hard to add tape
to the motor spindle to get i doing 78 if it doesnt already support
it. I wouldnt even contemplate messing with a dd tt.

If instead you record them at 45, you've got the complexities of both
the riaa curve and the various curves 78s used to contend with, as
well as the speed change. I dont se any reason to make life that hard.

Do use a 78 needle in your cart, use of an LP needle will get you far
worse sound. Don't use a steel needle, it deforms greatly during just
one play, and will mistrack something rotten by the end of the track

As far as all the minutiae you mention, 78s are crude beasts. Pretty
much none of them go down anywhere near 20Hz. They were recorded
mostly at 78, but some were 80rpm, and some were somewhere near 78 but
not quite, due to the crude equipment used. As for how the tracking
and mechanism behaves, look at old 78 recorders and players and you'll
quickly realise its a total non-issue. If you set up a tt as badly as
you can possibly manage, it might increase the distortion from 5% to
5.1.

And never clean a 78 with alcohol! It will dissolve.

ISTR audacity having a variety of the usual playback curves for 78s,
there were a fair few of them.


NT

Many earlier 78 records were not vinyl, they were shellac, deliberately
loaded with an abrasive filler to make the needle conform to the groove
shape in the first few revolutions. Best needles were fibre, often
rose thorn ( yes, good old plant material ! ). You could hand-sharpen
to approximately the correct shape, then the disc did the rest. Forget
modern diamond styli - these are *far* too small ( the term
'microgroove' actually meant something then ) and will quickly ruin the
record by riding in the bottom of the groove and slamming from side to
side on the walls.

Have fun.

 

[Don Y]

Many earlier 78 records were not vinyl, they were shellac, deliberately
loaded with an abrasive filler to make the needle conform to the groove
shape in the first few revolutions. Best needles were fibre, often rose
thorn ( yes, good old plant material ! ). You could hand-sharpen to
approximately the correct shape, then the disc did the rest. Forget
modern diamond styli - these are *far* too small ( the term
'microgroove' actually meant something then ) and will quickly ruin the
record by riding in the bottom of the groove and slamming from side to
side on the walls.

Have fun.

(sigh) This is disappointing! I'd reserved myself to the
tedium of the actual "transcription" process (recording the
audio, delimiting tracks, labeling them, etc.) thinking it
would be a straight-forward, on-time deal that would enable
me to shed some of this "baggage" before the next move.
I.e., comparable to scanning the old 35mm slides, photos,
tax returns, etc.

But, this doesn't seem like its going to be as cut and dry!
<frown> Maybe I will see if I can locate a "service" locally
and off-load this task to them...

Thanks!

 

[Les Cargill]

(sigh) This is disappointing! I'd reserved myself to the
tedium of the actual "transcription" process (recording the
audio, delimiting tracks, labeling them, etc.) thinking it
would be a straight-forward, on-time deal that would enable
me to shed some of this "baggage" before the next move.
I.e., comparable to scanning the old 35mm slides, photos,
tax returns, etc.

But, this doesn't seem like its going to be as cut and dry!
<frown> Maybe I will see if I can locate a "service" locally
and off-load this task to them...

Thanks!

Ask on rec.audio.pro.

 

[Nico Coesel]

(sigh) This is disappointing! I'd reserved myself to the
tedium of the actual "transcription" process (recording the
audio, delimiting tracks, labeling them, etc.) thinking it
would be a straight-forward, on-time deal that would enable
me to shed some of this "baggage" before the next move.

I doubt you are the only one with those records. I simply downloaded
most of the music I have (had) on vinyl in mp3. Much easier.

 

[Fred Abse]

ISTR audacity having a variety of the usual playback curves for 78s, there
were a fair few of them.

Acoustic
NAB
Columbia LP
AES
Decca FFRR micro
Decca FFRR 78
RIAA
Columbia 78
Decca FFRR LP
EMI 78
RCA Victor 1938
RCA Victor 1947

AFAIK, these filters *apply* the equalization curves.


Audacity also has standard RPM conversion: 33 1/3, 45, 78 both ways.

*Provided the OP can get a proper 78 stylus*, he could transcribe at
45RPM, then convert to 78. With a bit of massaging, he might get quite
acceptable results.

I have several hundred pounds weight of vinyl, mostly classical, collected
over the years, that I've been meaning to transcribe for years. I need a
magnetic cartridge preamp. One day when I have time and inclination (AKA
never), I shall build one.

 

[Fred Abse]

Forget modern
diamond styli - these are *far* too small ( the term 'microgroove'
actually meant something then ) and will quickly ruin the record by riding
in the bottom of the groove and slamming from side to side on the walls.

ISTR that Shure made a combined large groove stylus with added weight, to
fit their top-of-range magnetic cartridges (eg. V15).

 

[Don Y]

Hi Nico,

I doubt you are the only one with those records. I simply downloaded
most of the music I have (had) on vinyl in mp3. Much easier.

I've tried that with much of my "more recent" (i.e., 30-40 year
old) collection -- with some success though often with pretty
questionable quality! How much *you* value a particular piece
doesn't necessarily correlate to how much *I* value it! And,
there is variation among quality of the actual source materials!
(I can, for example, tell you how many times each of my copies
of these "more recent" albums have been "under the stylus"!)

However, older titles tend to be a lot harder to locate.
Or, to find the correct "version" (performer/release).

E.g., "Watusi Wedding", "Casey Jones", "Jailer Bring Me Water",
etc. (you might find a hit for the title -- only to discover
that it is a very different performance/performer than what
you were looking for)

I have a friend who collects versions of "Ghost Riders in the Sky"
(I *think* that is the title of the piece he's interested in).
Last count, he had something like *200* of them!

(Sheesh! I can't even name 200 varieties of ICE CREAM that
I like!!)

 

[Nico Coesel]

Hi Nico,



I've tried that with much of my "more recent" (i.e., 30-40 year
old) collection -- with some success though often with pretty
questionable quality! How much *you* value a particular piece
doesn't necessarily correlate to how much *I* value it! And,
there is variation among quality of the actual source materials!
(I can, for example, tell you how many times each of my copies
of these "more recent" albums have been "under the stylus"!)

However, older titles tend to be a lot harder to locate.
Or, to find the correct "version" (performer/release).

That is true. Sometimes something is hard to find so you have to
convert it yourself. But don't worry, even with today's music it is
hard to find the version they play on the radio. One of the more
recent songs by U2 called 'Magnificent' is available in about 10
original versions.

(Sheesh! I can't even name 200 varieties of ICE CREAM that
I like!!)

Fortunately there is benandjerrys.com

 

[Don Y]

Hi Nico,

That is true. Sometimes something is hard to find so you have to
convert it yourself.

Well (prior to this post! :> ) I had thought it would
"simply" be a matter of setting up a turntable, 24b sound
card, cueing up an album, *waiting* for it to finish playing.
Then, do a bit of post processing and labeling -- and on
to the *next*!

(I.e., sort of like getting things onto *tape*)

But don't worry, even with today's music it is
hard to find the version they play on the radio. One of the more
recent songs by U2 called 'Magnificent' is available in about 10
original versions.

I tend to enjoy live shows so I can easily have dozens of
different "performances" of a particular title (by the
same artist).

Fortunately there is benandjerrys.com

I make my own. :> Relatively easy (gelato is a bit more
work) and you can make the flavors as *intense* as you
want!

The downside is that the ice cream tends to be "colder"
than store-bought. This limits how quickly you can
*swallow* it all without discomfort (took me several hours
to finish the three pints I made last night! ;-)

 

[Adrian Jansen]

Same here. Also mostly classical. But I _do_ have a turntable... I
just haven't gotten to the task

...Jim Thompson

I am a bit ahead there, did several hundred vinyls around 10 years ago,
when recordable CDs first became available. Now they are all on one
drive as mp3.

Never transcribed any 78's, they were already dead technology in the
60's, as far as I was concerned. 78's had a playing time around 3 mins
per side. How many changes for say the Beethoven 9th ? Wagner Ring
cycle anyone ?

 

[notbob]

Ben & Jerry's is also anti-gun. I won't buy their products.

Another good reason to boycott them.

I never buy BJs ice cream primarily cuz it sucks. I can't think of
one single BJ flavor I'd eat even if given it free.

nb

 

[Nico Coesel]

Thats by far the most stupid reason not to buy an icecream I've ever
heard. Do you hear yourself saying that to your (grand)child?

I don't buy their products either.

Same here, my wife however...

 

[[email protected]]

Ben & Jerry's is also anti-gun. I won't buy their products.

Ben and Jerry certainly are Vermont fairies and Unileaver (bought Ben&Jerry
Ice Cream in '00) is a Europeon company, so being anti-gun is an automatic.
;-)

 

[Don Y]

Hi Fred,

ISTR that Shure made a combined large groove stylus with added weight, to
fit their top-of-range magnetic cartridges (eg. V15).

Probably *never* work in this turntable, then. One of those
wacky "tangential tracking" designs (I should look at the
mechanism to see how it actually works. One of those things
that you don't really think about -- as long as the sound comes
out! :> )

 

[Don Y]

Hi Fred,

I have several hundred pounds weight of vinyl, mostly classical, collected
over the years, that I've been meaning to transcribe for years.

Ditto. I've been going through slides, photos, old business
paperwork, tax returns, etc. -- paper is *heavy*!

I need a
magnetic cartridge preamp. One day when I have time and inclination (AKA
never), I shall build one.

If it was just a matter of hacking the microcontroller to
change the operating point of the motor's servo loop, that
would be a no brainer. But, if there are lots of other
issues related to the *physics* of the recording and reproduction
process that don't magically "scale"... then it's one of those
things I don't feel motivated to *learning* in this lifetime! :>

(I.e., I haven't heard many of these tunes in 40 years... I can
wait ANOTHER 40!! :> )

OTOH, if I can find a firm locally that will do the job for me,
then it may be worth it just to get rid of that excess weight
"justifiably".

 

[Nico Coesel]

don't have any grandchildren,or children.
Besides,there are other brands of ice cream.

I REFUSE to do business with companies that fund anti-American causes such
as gun control or other "progressive" issues that I believe are bad for
America.

Progressive means going forward. For some people change is difficult
to accept. You have to admit though that a car is much better than a
horse + carriage. And a house beats living in a cave hands down. Going
forward is the only way to stay in the game.

I don't see many movies because of all the activist actors and directors.
I just had to add Robert Downey Jr to my list,he was at that G.Clooney
Comrade Obama fundraiser. A shame,I liked him as an actor.

So your 'believes' are preventing you from living a normal live? You
sound even more ridiculous than a fanatic Muslim!