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Infinite Resistor Problem - Confirmation

D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Confirmation of the solution for the infinite resistor grid puzzle is in my
latest blog, link below.
Much more fun than writing a program...

Dave.
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cute!

So what's the xkcd resistance -- a knight's move?

Tim
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim said:
Cute!

So what's the xkcd resistance -- a knight's move?

Oops, plain forgot to include that.
Just uploaded a new version with it included.
Basically, 0.7855 was the lowest value I measured, and the expected value is
0.77324 according to Jon's program ((8-PI)/(2*PI)).
That's a 1.5% error minimum.
With the other arrangements I was getting much less error than that in all
the central locations, e.g. the single resistor one measured around an
average of about 0.6% error or so in the central region, not a single one
was over 1%.
The single diagonal averaged around the 0.9% mark or so.
So it looks like the "knights move" one shows greater error with a fixed
sized grid (or else, Jon's calculated value is slightly wrong?).
Jon's program spat out 0.05% error for a 30x30 grid, I wonder what it gives
for a 14x14 like mine?

Dave.
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
David L. Jones said:
Oops, plain forgot to include that.
Just uploaded a new version with it included.
Basically, 0.7855 was the lowest value I measured, and the expected value
is 0.77324 according to Jon's program ((8-PI)/(2*PI)).
That's a 1.5% error minimum.

Neet.

Hey, (8 - pi) / 2pi = 8/2pi - pi/2pi = 4/pi - 1/2. So it's double the
diagonal value, but minus the sideways value... coincidence? Now I wonder
if there is a general (x, y) solution with factors of 1/2 and pi!

'Ya know, you got about twice the error of the other moves. And it's about
twice the distance -- the others were approximately 1 or 2 resistors across,
but this is more like 3. So the majority of the current is flowing over a
larger area, and your grid is effectively about half the size it was on the
smaller measurements. The other measurements still came out higher than
predicted, by an amount roughly proportional to the grid. Going by just
"1%", it's not statistically significant, but the numbers are suspicious
enough that I wonder if your resistors are more accurate than a flat +/-1%
distribution.

So what's the error? You should have a fairly well defined (although still
approximate) correction factor to go between finite and infinite cases.
That correction factor will always be between 0 and 1, because a larger grid
can only have less resistance. Obviously, it's related to the gross area of
the grid and proximity to the edges, which you have illustrated.
Interesting to contemplate what functions would approximate it -- a wave of
the hand might simply say, well the grid is N wide and the measurement is n
wide, so the error is roughly n/N (or maybe (n/N)^2, or some other power,
since you're getting better than 1/14th accuracy, after all). Likewise, the
error might range between "fairly close" in the center, to "closer to R"
towards the edges, so it might have a (|x| + |y|), or maybe |x*y|, or even
x^2 * y^2 sort of factor to it.

It would also be interesting to run a Monte-Carlo on this grid to see what
real variations do. Precision across the whole grid goes as N^(-1/2) (for
number of resistors N), but most of the grid doesn't matter much, so it
might be closer to N^(-1/4) (4th root!) instead. I don't like the idea of
analyzing random values in a 500-dimensional space though...

Tim
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim said:
Neet.

Hey, (8 - pi) / 2pi = 8/2pi - pi/2pi = 4/pi - 1/2. So it's double the
diagonal value, but minus the sideways value... coincidence?

Coincidences like that don't happen that often in engineering!, I'd almost
expect a neat solution like that.
Now I wonder if there is a general (x, y) solution with factors of 1/2 and
pi!

Could well be. Resident mathematicians get to work!
'Ya know, you got about twice the error of the other moves. And it's
about twice the distance -- the others were approximately 1 or 2
resistors across, but this is more like 3. So the majority of the
current is flowing over a larger area, and your grid is effectively
about half the size it was on the smaller measurements. The other
measurements still came out higher than predicted, by an amount
roughly proportional to the grid. Going by just "1%", it's not
statistically significant, but the numbers are suspicious enough that
I wonder if your resistors are more accurate than a flat +/-1%
distribution.

I believe they are much better than 1%.
I measured quite a number of them before I started and they were all very
much under 1%, like well under 0.5% or so if I remember correctly.
I have some left over from the box so I can perform some post construction
confirmation...

Perhaps I should perform some systematic single resistor measurements on the
central part of the grid to give a better base accuracy to work with for the
diagonal measurements. At the moment my numbers are just from memory poking
around the grid, I didn't record them.
So what's the error? You should have a fairly well defined (although
still approximate) correction factor to go between finite and
infinite cases. That correction factor will always be between 0 and
1, because a larger grid can only have less resistance. Obviously,
it's related to the gross area of the grid and proximity to the
edges, which you have illustrated. Interesting to contemplate what
functions would approximate it -- a wave of the hand might simply
say, well the grid is N wide and the measurement is n wide, so the
error is roughly n/N (or maybe (n/N)^2, or some other power, since
you're getting better than 1/14th accuracy, after all). Likewise,
the error might range between "fairly close" in the center, to
"closer to R" towards the edges, so it might have a (|x| + |y|), or
maybe |x*y|, or even x^2 * y^2 sort of factor to it.
It would also be interesting to run a Monte-Carlo on this grid to see
what real variations do. Precision across the whole grid goes as
N^(-1/2) (for number of resistors N), but most of the grid doesn't
matter much, so it might be closer to N^(-1/4) (4th root!) instead.

Indeed. As you go further out the tolerance in each resistor would become
irrelevant pretty quickly.
In the single resistor case, that single resistance will dominate the error
for that reading, so it's possible to post-analyse and even "calibrate" the
actual grid this way for the diagonal measurements.

Building the thing has really made the whole problem a lot more interesting!

Dave.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Confirmation of the solution for the infinite resistor grid puzzle is in my
latest blog, link below.
Much more fun than writing a program...

Dave.

Some folks don't do idiots' blogs.

If the result or the proof so damned elaborate that you couldn't post it
here, it must be incorrect.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cute!

So what's the xkcd resistance -- a knight's move?

Tim

Only if the truck is approaching at 70mph (up two,over one).

Any slower and all you get is a pawn's move, and a flat pawn.
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oops, plain forgot to include that.
Just uploaded a new version with it included.
Basically, 0.7855 was the lowest value I measured, and the expected value is
0.77324 according to Jon's program ((8-PI)/(2*PI)).

The (8-pi)/(2pi) comes from a closed solution of the integrals done on
paper with pencil, not a software program. There are at least three
usefully different ways to approach the solution. The one I used was
the Fourier approach, where a constant factor of (1/2pi)^D appears in
the front and D is 2 for a 2-dimensional grid. [In other words, there
is always a common factor of 1/(4*pi^2) in all answers for a 2D grid,
before worrying about the result of the integrals/sums.]
That's a 1.5% error minimum.
With the other arrangements I was getting much less error than that in all
the central locations, e.g. the single resistor one measured around an
average of about 0.6% error or so in the central region, not a single one
was over 1%.
The single diagonal averaged around the 0.9% mark or so.
So it looks like the "knights move" one shows greater error with a fixed
sized grid (or else, Jon's calculated value is slightly wrong?).
Jon's program spat out 0.05% error for a 30x30 grid, I wonder what it gives
for a 14x14 like mine?

The program was set up to only use odd numbers for the width and
height (so that [0,0] could be directly in the center.) The grid I
used earlier was 121x121 and I had selected points [0,0] and [1,2] in
a grid going from -60 to +60 on each side. (I had been playing with
different sizes and when I wrote, I only pointed out that using a grid
that spans 30 or more seems to work pretty well -- not that I was
actually using a 30x30 in producing those values.)

That isn't exactly centered on the grid. Centering it on that large
grid provided (today) a value of 0.7730 instead of the .77284 that I'd
reported earlier.

Using a 15x15 node matrix (which is exactly what you'd get with a
14x14 resistor matrix), it settles down to a value of 0.7578 ohms
before the program terminates saying there is little remaining change
going on.

In these calculations, the software is using the relaxation algorithm
as I earlier mentioned. It is NOT using a Spice simulation with an
exact matrix solution to a finite resistor problem, which likely will
provide a different result.

In fact, just a second and I'll try it in LTSpice.

Ah. LTSpice provides 0.78561 Ohms for a 14x14 matrix of resistors,
with the battery placed so that the mid-point node is straddled. You
mentioned seeing nothing less than 0.7855, which is darned close to
what Spice says, too.

Take note that the relaxation algorithm on a finite grid is NOT the
same as an exact matrix solution that Spice uses. It is just an easy
way to write some simple code that is very effective in a broad set of
circumstances. In fact, the relaxation algorithm can be easily
applied to electric field potentials in a vaccum with varying types of
electrode shapes and enclosures and so on. It's got its own areas
where it is very effective (Laplace solutions.)

In fact, now that I've mentioned this I was easily able to find this
site:

http://www.av8n.com/physics/laplace.htm

Which has a nice spreadsheet you can use for exactly what I'm doing
with the tiny bit of code I wrote, earlier. I modified both the first
and second spreadsheet they offer to change the electrode and add a
cell that easily displays the same results that my program provides.

If you want my thoughts on changing those spreadsheets, I'll gladly
write them up. (It's not much, but there are some details to worry
about.)

Jon
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Archimedes' Lever said:
Some folks don't do idiots' blogs.

If the result or the proof so damned elaborate that you couldn't post
it here, it must be incorrect.

Just like your assertion that the standard 0.5R solution is wrong, huh?
We are still waiting for your brilliant answer and proof...

For those that don't want to watch my video blog, I actually built a
resistor network for some fun:
http://www.alternatezone.com/images/ResistorGrid05R.jpg

Dave.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oops, plain forgot to include that.
Just uploaded a new version with it included.
Basically, 0.7855 was the lowest value I measured, and the expected value is
0.77324 according to Jon's program ((8-PI)/(2*PI)).
That's a 1.5% error minimum.
With the other arrangements I was getting much less error than that in all
the central locations, e.g. the single resistor one measured around an
average of about 0.6% error or so in the central region, not a single one
was over 1%.
The single diagonal averaged around the 0.9% mark or so.
So it looks like the "knights move" one shows greater error with a fixed
sized grid (or else, Jon's calculated value is slightly wrong?).
Jon's program spat out 0.05% error for a 30x30 grid, I wonder what it gives
for a 14x14 like mine?

Why not 32,767 x 32,767? ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
B

Ben Jackson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Next time use 0201 SMD. ;-)

Actually if you picked the right size (probably 0805 or so) you could
take a standard prototyping perfboard and use the copper rings as the
nodes in the resistor grid. In fact, with solder paste and a toaster
oven you could do it really quickly!
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Why not 32,767 x 32,767? ;-)

Spoken like an owner of a quad-core server with 64gig of ram and a few
day's cpu time to waste. ;)

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Next time use 0201 SMD. ;-)

If someone can prepare a 100x100 for about $10-$20, I'll take one! :)
(20200 resistors and 40400 pads -- a walk in the park, eh?)

What I did instead of this was to just generate the surface plot in 3D
for a 121x121 node grid (120x120 resistors.) Beautiful to see after
the simple Laplacian operator does its work on it.

However, I'd go for a board, too. What does 20200 0201 1k resistors
cost with 40400 pads, soldered and ready? :)

Jon
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
If someone can prepare a 100x100 for about $10-$20, I'll take one! :)
(20200 resistors and 40400 pads -- a walk in the park, eh?)

What I did instead of this was to just generate the surface plot in 3D
for a 121x121 node grid (120x120 resistors.) Beautiful to see after
the simple Laplacian operator does its work on it.

However, I'd go for a board, too. What does 20200 0201 1k resistors
cost with 40400 pads, soldered and ready? :)

I'll supply the resistors (1K, 0603s) if you do everything else. Where
do you want them drop shipped?
 
M

Mycelium

Jan 1, 1970
0
If someone can prepare a 100x100 for about $10-$20, I'll take one! :)
(20200 resistors and 40400 pads -- a walk in the park, eh?)

What I did instead of this was to just generate the surface plot in 3D
for a 121x121 node grid (120x120 resistors.) Beautiful to see after
the simple Laplacian operator does its work on it.

However, I'd go for a board, too. What does 20200 0201 1k resistors
cost with 40400 pads, soldered and ready? :)

Jon


You place four pads together, and reduce the pad count. 45° angle grid.
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'll supply the resistors (1K, 0603s) if you do everything else. Where
do you want them drop shipped?

I can't even see them. The darned things swirl onto the floor from
the vortices of a buzzing gnat. Like finding particles of talcum
powder. Might as well be, to my soldering station. I have a hard
enough time with sot23-6 micros, already. And at least I can see
those.

Jon
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can't even see them. The darned things swirl onto the floor from
the vortices of a buzzing gnat. Like finding particles of talcum
powder. Might as well be, to my soldering station. I have a hard
enough time with sot23-6 micros, already. And at least I can see
those.

Hey, I figured that it was worth the $30 to see you solder them all
down. ;-)
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hey, I figured that it was worth the $30 to see you solder them all
down. ;-)

It would be, and you can bet I'd sell tickets (at $2/minute.) And
hotdogs, meals, and probably rooms for the week-long extravaganza,
because I wouldn't be done in a single day.

If enough folks want to pony up $5k/wk for this wonderful event, be
sure to write. I'll include transportation to and from the airport,
the option of either A-frame housing or separate rooms with their own
bathrooms, commercial kitchen services and food, horse riding, evening
hand gun, rifle, and automatic weapons practice with my picture on
every target, and wall sized video monitors to watch me solder 0201
resistors with a Weller D550 soldering gun using pieces from a rounded
hanger wire as a tip. If I survive the abuse, I'll personally sign
certificates of completion, too.

If this 'entertainment' catches on, I'll make it a yearly event! ;)

Jon

P.S. Actually, I'm already working on providing regular retreats not
unlike this -- four times a year is the current goal. Very soon, I
hope to see. Different function, of course. But I'm adaptable when
the price is right. ;)
 
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