Cheap PCB fab place (for non-urgent stuff)

[Joerg]

Gents,

Was mentioned in this month's IEEE Spectrum:

http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Faq

It's not something for urgent projects, you can't have more than four
layers and no really small drill sizes but it sure is cheap. Seems like
this is run by Sparkfun.

 

[Rich Webb]

Gents,

Was mentioned in this month's IEEE Spectrum:

http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Faq

It's not something for urgent projects, you can't have more than four
layers and no really small drill sizes but it sure is cheap. Seems like
this is run by Sparkfun.

I've used it and it's fully in compliance with the old saying "Good,
fast, or cheap. Pick two." No complaints at all about the board quality
(two-sided) and the prices are certainly good. Actually, I received
twice the number of boards that I had ordered at no extra cost,
presumably because it was used to fill out the panel. They did take a
while to be received, though!

 

[Joerg]

I've used it and it's fully in compliance with the old saying "Good,
fast, or cheap. Pick two." No complaints at all about the board quality
(two-sided) and the prices are certainly good. Actually, I received
twice the number of boards that I had ordered at no extra cost,
presumably because it was used to fill out the panel. They did take a
while to be received, though!

Sure, it's only for projects along the lines of "I always wanted to have
....", not for urgent client stuff.

 

[Martin Riddle]

Sure, it's only for projects along the lines of "I always wanted to
have ...", not for urgent client stuff.

Just got a quote from http://www.myropcb.com/ on a 2 layer board (5x6),
$90 for 5 pcs.
This is almost $2.50 a square inch. Except its for 5 and delivery is 2
weeks.
Someone here had pointed them out. We had some 4 layer stuff done and
the quality is excellent.

Cheers

 

[whygee]

Geez. I could do those in two days with $10 of materials.

Do you plate holes too ?

Tim

yg

 

[Tim Williams]

Just got a quote from http://www.myropcb.com/ on a 2 layer board (5x6),
$90 for 5 pcs.
This is almost $2.50 a square inch. Except its for 5 and delivery is 2
weeks.

Geez. I could do those in two days with $10 of materials.

Tim

 

[Hammy]

Do you plate holes too ?

yg

It can be done.

http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/ma...port/plated_thru_holes/plated-thru_holes.html

But why. For such small quantity 5 boards they are prototypes. If you
want a proffesional look you could do it but I just use wires.

 

[Tim Williams]

Unfortunately, no. Or not yet. Need to find some conductive ink first,
then I'll see if I can generate enough "throw" with copper plating. If it
works, it'll be pretty fackin' sweet

Tim

 

[Tim Williams]

It can be done.

http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/ma...port/plated_thru_holes/plated-thru_holes.html

But why. For such small quantity 5 boards they are prototypes. If you
want a proffesional look you could do it but I just use wires.

Hmm, interesting product. Looks to be silver powder in a superglue and
solvent base. I bet acetone would be a good solvent in lieu of the ethyl
whatevers they're using.

I wonder if it accepts solder.

Tim

 

[Hammy]

Unfortunately, no. Or not yet. Need to find some conductive ink first,
then I'll see if I can generate enough "throw" with copper plating. If it
works, it'll be pretty fackin' sweet

Tim

The pulsarprofx has a conductive ink pen for trace repair, soderable.
Product #CW100P , Priced at $15~$18.95

According to the writer it is reliable he reflows with it on.

 

[Joerg]

Just got a quote from http://www.myropcb.com/ on a 2 layer board (5x6),
$90 for 5 pcs.
This is almost $2.50 a square inch. Except its for 5 and delivery is 2
weeks.
Someone here had pointed them out. We had some 4 layer stuff done and
the quality is excellent.

Thanks, sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately they seem to do RoHS
boards which I avoid whenever possible. Most of my projects are non-EU
or exempt.

 

[Joerg]

Geez. I could do those in two days with $10 of materials.

Wait a few years and then (try to) write that again. When you have your
degree, a 11-12h job, wife, kids, a mortgage, not one minute of truly
free time, and you just got a call that your son turfed his bike on Old
Mill Road and is in the ER ...

 

[John Devereux]

Thanks, sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately they seem to do RoHS
boards which I avoid whenever possible. Most of my projects are non-EU
or exempt.

Well.... don't order them RoHS then! What, you're going to boycott them
because they *can* do RoHS?

 

[Hammy]

Wait a few years and then (try to) write that again. When you have your
degree, a 11-12h job, wife, kids, a mortgage, not one minute of truly
free time, and you just got a call that your son turfed his bike on Old
Mill Road and is in the ER ...

When I went on interviews after I graduated a lot of the places did
their own in house prototyping and small production runs several had
there own Pick & Place machines etc. These were I'd say medium to
large companies. With anywhere from 10 to over a hundred employees.

For a one man operation yea you wouldn't have time for prototyping or
it wouldn't be cost effective. If you have a staff with say a couple
of Tech's it could be part of their jobs.

You can't really factor in design time and artwork your doing that
anyway or you're not engineering anything.

For me to transfer the artwork to PCB and etch the boards mentioned
it would take 2 to 3 hours. This DOESN'T include drilling holes other
then four for alignment (top/bot) and populating the boards.

If you have a proper etchant tank its not like you have to waste time
watching the boards etch (unless you're into that stuff). Put them in
the tank set the timer and go about other stuff.So a total time of 1
hour to an hour and a half of your time would be spent fabricating the
boards not unreasonable. You would probably waste as much time getting
quotes.

 

[Joerg]

When I went on interviews after I graduated a lot of the places did
their own in house prototyping and small production runs several had
there own Pick & Place machines etc. These were I'd say medium to
large companies. With anywhere from 10 to over a hundred employees.

My first employer als ran a full SMT assembly line but that was when
there were hardly any shops that could do high-density SMT.

For a one man operation yea you wouldn't have time for prototyping or
it wouldn't be cost effective. If you have a staff with say a couple
of Tech's it could be part of their jobs.

You can't really factor in design time and artwork your doing that
anyway or you're not engineering anything.

No, that's part of engineering. But I always farm out the layout and
then provide guidance on the iffy parts like switchers and RF.

For me to transfer the artwork to PCB and etch the boards mentioned
it would take 2 to 3 hours. This DOESN'T include drilling holes other
then four for alignment (top/bot) and populating the boards.

I stopped doing that once I had my degree. No time for that. Holes are
another matter these days. I wouldn't know how to reliably get dozens of
teeny holes per square-inch into a packed SMT board with TSSOP and stuff
on there, let alone plate them. You can't do that with wires if
underneath a DFN package etc.

If you have a proper etchant tank its not like you have to waste time
watching the boards etch (unless you're into that stuff). Put them in
the tank set the timer and go about other stuff.So a total time of 1
hour to an hour and a half of your time would be spent fabricating the
boards not unreasonable. You would probably waste as much time getting
quotes.

Not really. The last run for a client: Sent Gerbers, BOM and such, cc'd
client and asked that my client be cc'd on quotes, invested time about
five minutes. Client said they liked the 10-day full turn-key, sent over
credit info, probably five minutes on their part. Fab house bought all
SMT parts. 10 days later fully populated boards were on my lab bench and
they even threw in a bag of trail mix so I saved the 15 sec round trip
to the kitchen

 

[Joerg]

Well.... don't order them RoHS then! What, you're going to boycott them
because they *can* do RoHS?

No, will have to ask. But what I found with several shops is that their
standard procedure is RoHS and if you deviate from that there'll be
steep extra charges. Then I'd prefer a place that has a standard
non-RoHS process. However, often I was able to negotiate the $500 or
whatever non-RoHS surcharge away.

 

[John Devereux]

No, will have to ask. But what I found with several shops is that
their standard procedure is RoHS and if you deviate from that there'll
be steep extra charges. Then I'd prefer a place that has a standard
non-RoHS process. However, often I was able to negotiate the $500 or
whatever non-RoHS surcharge away.

AFAIK, it is RoHS that is the non-standard option, just like you
want. If you go into their quoting system you will see that you have to
change the defaults for both PCB material and PCB finishing if you do
want RoHS.

Myro are the Canadian office of a Chinese manufacturer AIUI. I have been
dealing with them (from the UK) for over 7 years with generally very
good experience. Some of the pooling services might give better pricing
on prototypes but have their own restrictions. With Myro you can have
non-standard board thicknesses, routing shapes, panelization, scoring,
solder resist colours etc. I have even had them make multiple designs on
the same panel, they don't seem to mind as long as they are pre-combined
in the gerbers, in fact there is an option for that on the quote form.

 

[Joerg]

AFAIK, it is RoHS that is the non-standard option, just like you
want. If you go into their quoting system you will see that you have to
change the defaults for both PCB material and PCB finishing if you do
want RoHS.

Thanks, I looked at the text on the main page which states RoHS. But it
is good to know that one can bow out sans penalty.

Myro are the Canadian office of a Chinese manufacturer AIUI. I have been
dealing with them (from the UK) for over 7 years with generally very
good experience. Some of the pooling services might give better pricing
on prototypes but have their own restrictions. With Myro you can have
non-standard board thicknesses, routing shapes, panelization, scoring,
solder resist colours etc. I have even had them make multiple designs on
the same panel, they don't seem to mind as long as they are pre-combined
in the gerbers, in fact there is an option for that on the quote form.

That is nice, others do not like it or slap on a penalty if you combine
designs. Some of my design just look like two because there is a 10mm
isolation barrier with absolutely nothing on it.

Hopefully Canada doesn't mean it has to go through customs twice, China
-> Canada -> USA.

 

[Joerg]

This is a good strategy.

But do you think it'll even be possible in another, say, 5 years? Today
pretty much all the parts are meant for RoHS processes, so I'm thinking
that since running RoHS and non-RoHS means having to keep two reflow
ovens around, over time most all CMs will just go all-RoHS? ...

Possibly. But that would be sad.

... (Especially
for commercial products -- for the military/NASA/etc. where price is no
object, I expect niche "leaded" assemblers will stick around... just as
there's already a niche market in de-balling lead-free BGAs and
re-balling them with leaded solder, often at a cost close to or
exceeding the original price of the part!)

BGA is another story. I avoid them when at all possible because they are
causing so much grief. Having a stiff ceramic-like chip with solder pads
on a structure such as FR-4 that is by nature somewhat flexible has
IMHO always been a rather sick concept.

<told_ya_so_mode>
The consequences were as predictable as the real estate bubble bust,
pretty soon expensive stuff failed and BGA fix-it shops sprung up in
lots of places. Some folks called me a Luddite for shunning BGAs, many
of them stopped saying that after some time
</told_ya_so_mode>

For the same reason I prefer MSOP over DFN. Strangely, the DFN packages
are usually more available.

 

[Andrew]

Myro are the Canadian office of a Chinese manufacturer AIUI. I have been
dealing with them (from the UK) for over 7 years with generally very
good experience. Some of the pooling services might give better pricing
on prototypes but have their own restrictions. With Myro you can have
non-standard board thicknesses, routing shapes, panelization, scoring,
solder resist colours etc. I have even had them make multiple designs on
the same panel, they don't seem to mind as long as they are pre-combined
in the gerbers, in fact there is an option for that on the quote form.

http://www.pcbfabrication.com/

Had a good experience with them, especially if you need non-standard
plating, shape, thickness, etc.
It will be more expensive, but not outrageously so as in other places.
Relatively slow - about two weeks if you don't want to pay extra.