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Switching circuit

quioxz

Apr 16, 2010
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So I've been looking for a nice tool and found Multisim :)
Here's the current diagram with 9V+7805

For the box, it's just a small aluminium medicine box I found that looks nice

Btw, if I understand correctly, 7805 is a buck regulator right?

And if you were to use the higher voltage, what is your choice of battery?
Quoting from 55pilot, the 9V wasn't even designed to be drawn so much power it won't even last long as it should

Power requirement is just a normal USB, but I want as high current as it could get (500mA in this case)
 

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55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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Unless you're looking at non-rechargable AA cells, in which case you'll be pretty safe (and that was what I assumed he was talking about).
I would disagree with you there. Trying to charge a non-rechargeable battery can be really bad. If you put two AA batteries in parallel, one "full" and one "empty", the full and one is going to back-drive the empty one and the result will be undesirable. At a minimum, the full one is going to go empty fairly fast. Doing that with rechargeable batteries would be worse, and we agree on that.
Actually, putting rechargeable batteries in series is almost as bad.
Agreed, if you are taking about taking two rechargeable "cells" and putting them together. When battery packs are made in a factory setting, they always top off or drain all the cells before mating them into a pack. Even then, the controller/safety circuit in the pack monitors the individual cells and tries to charge balance them during every charge. People just randomly putting them together like they do with non-rechargeable cells is just scary.
For your circuit, my approach would be to use a higher voltage battery and a buck regulator in preference to a lower battery voltage and a boost regulator. But that's just a preference, not any sort of hard rule.
It is a preference based on good reason. Here are the reasons:

A step down (buck) converter has lower battery current than a step up (boost) converter. This causes the battery to operate with less stress and results in longer battery life.

In a step down converter, the inductor is always delivery current to the output capacitor. The current increases and decreases, but the change is relatively small. This results in a smoother output voltage. In a step up converter, the inductor dumps a short burst of current into the output capacitor, then nothing for a while, then a short burst.... This results in much higher ripple voltage, especially if the output capacitor is undersized or has too high of an ESR, which is invariably the case for hobbyist circuits. The higher ESR causes the cap to heat up and fail prematurely.

Finally, the peak current in a step down converter is lower or significantly lower than the peak current in a step up converter. This reduces component size, reduces I^2R losses and makes layout easier. This is the prime reason why even a professionally designed step up DC-DC converter is always lower efficiency that a comparable power step down converter. This is just basic physics.

That the lecture of the day from someone who has designed 4 DC-DC converters just this past week :cool:

---55p
 

(*steve*)

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Btw, if I understand correctly, 7805 is a buck regulator right?

no, it's a linear regulator

A buck regulator (at 100% efficiency -- which they never are) would require 278mA form a 9V battery to drive a 5V 500mA load.

And if you were to use the higher voltage, what is your choice of battery?
Quoting from 55pilot, the 9V wasn't even designed to be drawn so much power it won't even last long as it should

I guess we're all assuming a 216 size 9V battery. I was assuming disposable, maybe you're thinking rechargeable. If it's a rechargeable NiCad then it's 7.2V anyway, but will withstand higher current discharge. If it's NiMH it's probably close to 9V and won't like that current draw.

I really don't know. because I still don't know what you're planning to power, or why, or if long duration is important.

You might be wanting to get more life from a phone, or you mat be wanting to power a USB device where the power available from the USB connector is too small. Or you might be trying to charge batteries using a USB charger. I really don't know. Each of these might have different solutions.

We've already gone headlong into a solution that wouldn't be the best because we had incomplete information. I really don't want to expend that effort again (unnecessarily)

Power requirement is just a normal USB, but I want as high current as it could get (500mA in this case)

A real USB device won't draw more than 100mA (from memory) until it checks with the hub that greater power is available. In any case it won't draw more than 500mA unless it breaks the USB specs.

Do you know your device will draw more than 100mA?

I presume you have the circuit with the 9V battery and the LM7805 working. What current is drawn?
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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Btw, if I understand correctly, 7805 is a buck regulator right?
WRONG. It is actually a linear regulator. Considering this post, you are just not experienced enough yet to be doing DC-DC converters of any kind. Those of us who brought up the subject have done you a dis-service.
And if you were to use the higher voltage, what is your choice of battery?
There are several choices, but I do not think you are ready to handle them.
Quoting from 55pilot, the 9V wasn't even designed to be drawn so much power it won't even last long as it should
I was talking about a standard 9V battery. The standard 9V battery is not designed to deliver 500mA. There are other battery choices that can handle that and more, but that is not what we are talking about right now.

I too have to ask the question that Steve has asked. What EXACTLY are you trying to achieve here? Step back and give us the big picture. Not the circuits, not the battery types, not the size of boxes... in plain English, what is it that you are trying to achieve here?

I will add a couple more questions. What is your age? What is your background?

And one more request. Please do not even read my previous post. It is way over your level and will only serve to confuse you.

---55p
 
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55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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A real USB device won't draw more than 100mA (from memory) until it checks with the hub that greater power is available.
Your memory is hereby certified to be in correct working order :D

---55p
 

quioxz

Apr 16, 2010
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55pilot:
Internet surely is confusing, -sigh-
Ok, so are you saying that putting rechargeable batts in a flashlight that requires 2 AA is scary?? Assuming they are both fully charged (or equally charged)

What's a 'ripple voltage', ESR? Please explain to someone that English isn't his native :)

Then again, what type of batt is one of your choice for higher voltage?

Steve:
I'm sorry if I mentioned anything confusing, I was saying a normal disposable 9V where you can get in store for $1
But the rechargeable one, I meant for my alternative, the 3AAs
And my purpose is, I want to power up things and not having to find a plug every time I need to charge my devices, phones, mp3s, etc. which from what I've searched, some has the capability of drawing as much as 500mA so I'm working with 500mA for the worst case.

A buck regulator (at 100% efficiency -- which they never are) would require 278mA form a 9V battery to drive a 5V 500mA load.
You mean, linear regulator looses difference as heat
whereas for buck regulator, it preserves P=IV as much as possible so voltage drop = current boost?
 

quioxz

Apr 16, 2010
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I typed too slow then :p

WRONG. It is actually a linear regulator. Considering this post, you are just not experienced enough yet to be doing DC-DC converters of any kind. Those of us who brought up the subject have done you a dis-service.
There are several choices, but I do not think you are ready to handle them.
I was talking about a standard 9V battery. The standard 9V battery is not designed to deliver 500mA. There are other battery choices that can handle that and more, but that is not what we are talking about right now.

I too have to ask the question that Steve has asked. What EXACTLY are you trying to achieve here? Step back and give us the big picture. Not the circuits, not the battery types, not the size of boxes... in plain English, what is it that you are trying to achieve here?

I will add a couple more questions. What is your age? What is your background?

And one more request. Please do not even read my previous post. It is way over your level and will only serve to confuse you.

---55p

Age + background : high schooler
The other question, I believe has been answered in the previous post
And your presumption is probably correct :)
I'm not going to make up anything that exceeds my capability or dangerous anyway so if the DC/DC converter is too much then from what I currently have, my best option is a step up converter which......
I do not make one myself, lol
I'm thinking about experiencing a premade one from here http://bodhilabs.com/info.html, the PCB one btw
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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Ok, so are you saying that putting rechargeable batts in a flashlight that requires 2 AA is scary?? Assuming they are both fully charged (or equally charged)
As long as they are equally charged, it is fine. But if they not equal charged, especially if one is a lot more charged than the other, then it is a problem. What is scary is that most people do not realize it and even those that do know that you should not mix charged and uncharged batteries do not have a robust system in place that will GUARANTEE that it NEVER happens. All it takes is for it to happen one time for things to catch fire!
What's a 'ripple voltage', ESR? Please explain to someone that English isn't his native :)
Those are technical terms in electronics. Ripple voltage is how much the voltage jumps around, in this case due to the change in current delivered by the DC-DC converter. ESR is Equivalent Series Resistance. In real life, a capacitor is actually a capacitor with a resistor and an inductor in series. ESR is the measurement of those two. Those are advanced terms, that are a bit beyond your current level. Steve is much better at explaining things to beginners than I am, so I am sure he will chime in and fill the gaping gaps in my explanation.
And my purpose is, I want to power up things and not having to find a plug every time I need to charge my devices, phones, mp3s, etc.
Unfortunately, what you are doing does not make sense. The 9V battery, or a pair of AA cells have about the same amount of energy as a typical cell phone battery, assuming good quality Alkaline batteries. Due to maximum current ratings and other inefficiencies, it is unlikely that you will be able to fully charge a dead cell phone from one 9V or a pair of AA's. Does it really make sense for you to use up a 9V or two AA every time you need to charge your phone or MP3 and then get only partial charge? It will cost you $1 versus significantly less than 1 cent for doing it from a wall outlet.

The device may be useful in case of an emergency, but not for normal use. Like every other emergency device, you need to do your best to avoid ever needing to use it.

---55p
 
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(*steve*)

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55pilot:
Internet surely is confusing, -sigh-

It sure is :)

Ok, so are you saying that putting rechargeable batts in a flashlight that requires 2 AA is scary?? Assuming they are both fully charged (or equally charged)

Not really, because you take them out and charge them together and put them back in together. If one has slightly higher leakage than the other, then over time it will get discharged more and charged less (depending on the charger). Eventually one may end up completely discharged while the other has remaining charge. Depending on the battery, that itself is enough to destroy the battery, however further use can cause the battery to be charged in reverse as the other cell(s) are used, leading to failure.

This is one of the reasons why lead acid batteries are routinely charged beyond the level at which they accept more charge, it acts to level the charge in all of the cells ensuring that a single weak cell does not prematurely fail.

The same thing happens in large battery banks such as those used in electric vehicles, where a very clever battery monitoring circuit ensures that no cell is ever allowed to over charge or discharge. I believe smaller versions of this are used in the electric model community for handling LiPo fast charging.

What's a 'ripple voltage', ESR? Please explain to someone that English isn't his native :)

A capacitor (or a battery) cannot be charged or discharged at an infinite rate. One thing that prevents this is the amount of resistance within the capacitor or battery. It acts exactly the same as having a perfect device with a resistor in series with it. Thus this internal resistance is called Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR)

Because of this resistance current flowing into the device will raise it's voltage due to IxR (in addition to any charging effect) and discharge will reduce the voltage by IxR in addition to any discharging effect.

So one effect of high ESR is that the voltage rises and falls more than it would otherwise for a given current.

The more important effect though is the (I^2)*R heating effect. This is one of the things that causes batteries to heat up as they are charges and discharged.

Ripple current is the current that flows in and out of a capacitor as it attempts to filter the peaks and troughs from it. Low ESR is important for this, and especially important where these currents are high. For switchmode power supplies it is even more important because ESR tends to rise with frequency (actually caused by inductance in the capacitor) and because high frequency noise on power rails tends to interfere with circuit operation more than lower frequencies (which have lower rise and fall times).

Then again, what type of batt is one of your choice for higher voltage?

It all depends on the load, the weight and size restrictions, charging constraints, etc, etc. There is no one perfect battery.

Steve:
I'm sorry if I mentioned anything confusing, I was saying a normal disposable 9V where you can get in store for $1

Yep

But the rechargeable one, I meant for my alternative, the 3AAs

Yep, remember that rechargeable cells often have a lower energy density than non-rechargeable cells of the same size. Obviously with the benefit of being able to be recharged.

And my purpose is, I want to power up things and not having to find a plug every time I need to charge my devices, phones, mp3s, etc. which from what I've searched, some has the capability of drawing as much as 500mA so I'm working with 500mA for the worst case.

Personally, I'd look at a 9V to 12V power supply using AA cells and a well smoothed buck regulator (on the basis that the 5V rail in most PCs comes from something similar and the devices should be able to handle it). But do you have the experience to do this?

At a minimum you need to take a part and follow the manufacturers recommendations *exactly*, and especially as regards to the printed circuit design and required capacitors, and diode, and inductor.., ok, everything. Some of these look a bit like 7805's (except for a few more legs) but you can't be anywhere near as cavalier with them.

I am a little more generous than 55p. I'd agree that you should not attempt to *design* a SMPS, but there are some out there that with guidance (principally from the manufacturer's datasheet) you should be able to use an existing good and simple design.

I guess the question then becomes, why do you need a LED illuminated when current is being drawn? It doesn't tell you how much capacity is being used, or how much capacity remains.

You mean, linear regulator looses difference as heat
whereas for buck regulator, it preserves P=IV as much as possible so voltage drop = current boost?

Yep, that's it. And voltage increase --> current decrease.

for perfect efficiency, Vin*Iin = Vout*Iout

but nothing is perfect. Depending on the application you may be looking at efficiencies from 75% to 98% (higher = harder and more expensive and larger etc, etc.)

So with an efficiency E (say 0.75) Vin*Iin*E = Vout*Iout
 

quioxz

Apr 16, 2010
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55pilot:
Actually, I mean when the power runs low unexpectedly and I need it running for the rest of the day before I get back to my wall charger
Normal use will be wall charge anyway
On the other hand, I'm doing this educationally too, lol, as I love experiencing stuff
So I may not have to use it all the time, but it is still fun making one
From this 5 page post and researches of my own, I got a lot of new info I've never known before already so I say it worth it already and actually making up one wouldn't hurt

Btw, if I use a premade converter which one would you suggest
One is a step up converter that operates on an unknown chip
Another one is a step down converter that operates on LM2575-5 -which- from the datasheet, it is a buck converter -but- the sales says it's a switching buck thing so I am not really sure if I can use it

The step up will be used with 2-3AAs
And the step down will be used with 9V battery
And.. I'm talking about efficiency here. I don't want to use 9V that runs out in 45 minutes
Which, if my assumption is correct, from your posts, I should go with 9V+(probably)buck converter although they both *should* last equally long but the 9V will preserve the battery's life longer if they both were rechargeables
Am I correct?

Steve:
I guess the question then becomes, why do you need a LED illuminated when current is being drawn? It doesn't tell you how much capacity is being used, or how much capacity remains.
Yes it is ridiculous lol, I actually want to make it tell how much the charge in battery is but I couldn't imagine of one
So for now, I'm doing it for the reason above, fun and educational lol!!
 

(*steve*)

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Btw, if I use a premade converter which one would you suggest
Another one is a step down converter that operates on LM2575-5 -which- from the datasheet, it is a buck converter -but- the sales says it's a switching buck thing so I am not really sure if I can use it

They're all switchmode regulators. The LM2575-5 is probably what I would choose. Note that it requires a minimum input voltage of 7 volts. That is why I suggested 9 (and preferably 12). As your batteries discharge (and under higher currents) the voltage will drop, and you don't want to allow it to get below 7 volts.

Sadly, the first match in google has all the information you'll need, *except* the layout. OK, check out the ON Semiconductor version. It has a suggested layout.

I suggest you try to use these datasheets to pick the correct values for the capacitors and inductor, etc, for a regulator which matches your design criteria. Then pass it by us and we'll see if you got it right.

The step up will be used with 2-3AAs
And the step down will be used with 9V battery

I don't like boost converters except for low current. You're asking a lot from your batteries to (potentially) discharge them at 1A or thereabouts.

And.. I'm talking about efficiency here. I don't want to use 9V that runs out in 45 minutes
Which, if my assumption is correct, from your posts, I should go with 9V+(probably)buck converter although they both *should* last equally long but the 9V will preserve the battery's life longer if they both were rechargeables
Am I correct?

I'd prefer to see you use 6xAA. If you're going to use a 9V rechargeable you will definitely need to look at the datasheet to determine if it's suitable and what life you can expect.

Yes it is ridiculous lol, I actually want to make it tell how much the charge in battery is but I couldn't imagine of one
So for now, I'm doing it for the reason above, fun and educational lol!!

Well, now you've got to do a bit of design for yourself. Let's see how you go.
 

quioxz

Apr 16, 2010
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I actually going to buy one that is premade, it's about $3-4
I already found the datasheet with the design for 5V output
I'd like to make one myself, but...
I'm not planing to make a PCB, all the stuff are soldered and glued (if require), the box doesn't conduct electricity, but even though I make sure all contacts are in air.
I know it's not efficient, but it's easier than making a PCB myself
So basically, I don't want another subcircuit floating around, a small premade one is perfect for me :)
Also, parts are ridiculously hard to be found where I live especially the chips (I'm outside US, online orders cost more to shipping than the part does itself)

As far as my research goes, I don't know if 9V rechargeable Ni-MH exists, but for rechargeable Ni-MH AAs, it's said the voltage drop is very low until it's almost reached it's discharge limit

I'm not keen at reading datasheets, I normally skip the graph stuff and just read what I need to know (that said, means I don't work things to it's limit)
Given it's non rechageable one, what' the difference between 6AAs and 9V apart from the mAh inside it?
Is it that 9V are designed for max draw of 50mA?
So for 280mA(roughly, to get 500mA output...) constant draw, would it make the battery dead in no time?

My box dimension is roughly 6.5*9.5*2cm, 6AA wouldn't quite fit...
Although 6AAAs might, but I would be loosing -potentially- half capacity AA holds
Sadly, I'm just about out of options here
I wouldn't want expensive batteries too..
 

(*steve*)

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I actually going to buy one that is premade, it's about $3-4

Where are you getting it from? (I'm always interested in stuff like this :))

Also, when you get it, check all the components. See if they're cheating at all (it's not uncommon if the parts are coming from China).

I already found the datasheet with the design for 5V output
I'd like to make one myself, but...
I'm not planing to make a PCB, all the stuff are soldered and glued (if require), the box doesn't conduct electricity, but even though I make sure all contacts are in air.
I know it's not efficient, but it's easier than making a PCB myself

Eventually, making your own PCB is a really cool thing to be able to do. But then you also need to have very small drills and the right tools to use them...

Veroboard is a good middle ground, or pre-etched boards that mimic the layout of solderless breadboards. You can also get matrix board, which is kind of like veroboard without the copper. You can place components through the holes and wire them up on the opposite side. It's probably a better approach than what you're currently doing, but neither too different, nor too expensive.

So basically, I don't want another subcircuit floating around, a small premade one is perfect for me :)
Also, parts are ridiculously hard to be found where I live especially the chips (I'm outside US, online orders cost more to shipping than the part does itself)

Where are you? I'm half a world away from the US myself.

As far as my research goes, I don't know if 9V rechargeable Ni-MH exists, but for rechargeable Ni-MH AAs, it's said the voltage drop is very low until it's almost reached it's discharge limit

Yep, they exist. It's NiCad that have the really flat discharge curve though. Unfortunately they also have the lower voltage to start off with. NiMH are a bit more like normal non-rechargeable batteries.

I'm not keen at reading datasheets, I normally skip the graph stuff and just read what I need to know (that said, means I don't work things to it's limit)

Sometimes the graphs are the most interesting part. Once you learn to read them, you'll wonder what you did without them.

Having said that, a datasheet that includes applications for a device can be even more instructive. Some manufacturers put out a series of application notes that can be a goldmine of information.

Given it's non rechageable one, what' the difference between 6AAs and 9V apart from the mAh inside it?

the 9V battery has 6 cells inside it. They are each smaller than an AA cell (by lots). Generally smaller cells perform worse than you would expect than would be indicated by their smaller volume. Proportionately more of them is made up of covering, terminals, labels, etc.

Is it that 9V are designed for max draw of 50mA?
So for 280mA(roughly, to get 500mA output...) constant draw, would it make the battery dead in no time?

Well, some probably are. You really have to check the specs to know for certain. In general, there is probably no set maximum (other than what will physically damage the battery) but you get less and less out of the battery as you take it out faster (you can relate it to ESR in part. Smaller batteries have higher ESR, so more energy lost in heat at a given current)

My box dimension is roughly 6.5*9.5*2cm, 6AA wouldn't quite fit...

Two 9V batteries in series (remember to charge them both at the same time and charge them fully -- same goes for AA cells) will give you 18 volts, which will halve the current required from them. It also *may* increase the efficiency of your regulator slightly.

Two 9 volt batteries will be more expensive, but you'll be able to buy some non-rechargeable ones for testing and the drain won't be too too high.
 

quioxz

Apr 16, 2010
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'Mid way between Beijing and the the Ronne Ice Shelf' on a straight line down, it would be .......... Australia :D
I'm from Thailand
Btw, I'm not buying from local stores..... it's digital store :)
So, no chance to check

The PCB (for making anything), I want to make one myself too, if I can
I've absolutely no equipment available, boards, chemical, dremel, holder(or whatever it is called) and any other stuff needed
I actually wonder if there is something halfway like a breadboard but I can solder thing in and it would be really convenient

2x9V would squeeze into it, but then, will 150mA draw shorten its life?
And if I read correctly, I need a switch....
The quiescent is about 10-20mA I think
Hmm.... these wouldn't fit mid air
It would be impossible to wire that diagram with such little space
I think I might need a breadboard, small one

Will have to see what my righter brain will lead to :D
 

(*steve*)

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The bad news is that 9V NiMH batteries are neither 9V nor particularly high capacity.

Here is the first one I found. I found another at 250mAh.

Do you have a source for them that claims 400+ mAh? The size of your case seems to be a real constraint.
 

quioxz

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I only find that 500mAh is for regular disposable (umm, isn't all types disposable?) ones
And yes, the size is a real constraint, I've been thinking of how I'd actually put things in
Breadboard seem to be an option for arranging things but for the battery.... I don't know
Maybe I'll really have to glue the battery rail outside the box... who knows :)
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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I hate to come back to an earlier point. If this is for emergency use only, the size and aesthetics do not matter too much. Your goal should be to never have to use your emergency devices.

I know I am indulging in mind-reading, but my crystal ball is telling me that you are still in the mindset of using it on a regular basis. You need to change your point of view and think that this is something you will never use. If it happens to be so darn ugly that you would be embarrassed being seen with it, that would be better as it would put you in the right frame of mind: This is something you never want to use.

Also, Steve has very very diplomatically hinted on this and you have not picked up on it. That is why I like to club people over the head with my points, it gets their attention: The size of the box is really limiting your options, limiting you in what you can do and actually pushing you in all the wrong directions. DUMP THE BOX. Start from a clean slate. Pick the right battery and the right circuit. When you have all of that working on a breadboard, then figure out what box you need for it.

---55p
 

quioxz

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Well,.... I suppose you are right
Thanks for all the help, it has been really nice :)
I'll have to get by myself from now :D
Thanks all
 

quioxz

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Hai! I'm back to annoy you guys again, so please bare with me a bit
Imaging a normal AC-DC wall plug that labels the output 12V 500mA
What does that means?
Does it mean it will output constant 12V and current varies by resistance
Or constant 500mA and voltage varies by resistance?
What if I hook said adapter with 10 1.6V diodes, how much voltage will each diodes receive?
Then what if I hook said charger with only 10ohms resistance. Will it provide just 500mA and 12V drop?
Or will it provide
V = IR
12 = I*10
I = 1.2A
for some time and then blow up? (If the resistor doesn't break or blow up first)

Now, regarding my previous circuit, I put everything up on a prototype board.
I don't have access to a multimeter atm so I can't tell if my soldering skill shorts one of the joints or not, but I'm pretty sure I didn't mess anything up.
I used 9V+7805 temporary for power source while I wait to get my hands on a DC/DC converter

Now, I plug in my Sony MP3 player and everything 'looks' smooth. The LED lights up only after I insert the player to the USB socket, power seems to be going in but I can't tell for sure since that player uses a rechargeable battery and I left it for years without charging, the battery may have worn down, I don't know. I also tried it on a digital camera and it 'looks' fine.
Then I tried it on a 3G iPhone. Again, power seems to be going in, but I have problem with the LED. It blinks. I tried to figure out what happened inside but I couldn't think of anything, In my logic, the only reason the LED can lid is when the voltage across the negative pole of the comparator is higher than the voltage across the positive, reference, pole. And the only reason the LED won't lid is because the voltage across the negative pole is less than the one on positive.
But how come it blinks??? Does that means the voltage changes all the time? From low to high, high to low
And btw, it blinks at a very high rate.

Any ideas?
 

Resqueline

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The said adapter puts out approx 12V when loaded with 500mA. At no load it puts out a higher voltage, 16V being a common value. When loaded with 10 ohms it may only be able to deliver 9V for example, and then fail after maybe 15 minutes.

Phones often use simple pulse/pause charging. It connects & charges the battery until it reaches 4.2V/cell and then it disconnects the charging - waiting until the battery voltage drops down a bit before commencing charging. Try to put a resistor in series and I'm sure you'll see that the on-time increases and the rate decreasing.
 
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