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Re: Liability & responsibility of electrician?

  • Thread starter William Sommerwerck
  • Start date
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
You should see the screw up that had to be corrected, hacked if you ask
me. we had a long run, a service installed from one of our 2000 amp sub
panel over to a machine that has a 500 HP drive in it along with some
other goodies. 3 EMT pipes were run, one for each phase, 2 1000 MCM in
each pipe.

Do you see anything wrong yet?
They ran a ground wire only in one pipe.

Hint: that isn't it.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, Doug. The fact is that if I were anything like the retarded twit
that you are, you would already have your dick in the dirt for the dumb
shit you have said. You are lucky that I am a nice guy, and have an
order of magnitude more maturity than a little twit like you.

Such a stunning display of that maturity.

If you want to convince people that you're anything other than a twelve- or
thirteen-year-old using your mother's computer, a good place to start would be
writing on an adult level. That means communicating without profanity, without
namecalling, without junior-high-school insults. So far, you have not
demonstrated yourself capable of doing that. So the obvious conclusion is that
you're a prepubescent, snot-nosed kid.
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Such a stunning display of that maturity.

If you want to convince people that you're anything other than a twelve- or
thirteen-year-old using your mother's computer, a good place to start would be
writing on an adult level. That means communicating without profanity, without
namecalling, without junior-high-school insults.

How ironic that you make that statement immediately after you make one
of those very remarks. Except that yours barely rises above elementary
school level.
So far, you have not
demonstrated yourself capable of doing that.

You seem to be blind when you do it.
So the obvious conclusion is that
you're a prepubescent, snot-nosed kid.

What is obvious is that you have zero capacity to make assessments
about others, and any you make have zero credence.
 
R

Rich.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Doug Miller said:
Do you see anything wrong yet?


Hint: that isn't it.

Too easy! You cannot run the phase conductors separately like that. When
running parallel feeds like that, it should've been 2 conduits with the 3
phase conductors in each.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Too easy! You cannot run the phase conductors separately like that. When
running parallel feeds like that, it should've been 2 conduits with the 3
phase conductors in each.
Of course you can't, and of course it should. But Jamie didn't realize that --
he still thinks the problem is the lack of [completely unnecessary] ground
wires in the other two tubes.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
[drivel snipped]

Wow, Mom's really letting you stay up late tonight, isn't she?
 
B

Bruce L. Bergman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes, this is old - but if you want to get pedantic you CAN INDEED
take 3-phase power and make 6-phase power if you have a use for it.
They used to do it all the time on the old 'turn of the 20th Century'
transit trolley power supply stations.

They made a large double transformer to take incoming 2,400V or
4,800V 60Hz AC utility power with both a Delta and Wye output
windings, and through some magic you now had six phases of 600V AC
that were only 60 degrees apart in angular vector, not three phases
120 degrees apart.

Much easier to rectify that 6-phase AC power into nice smooth 600V
DC - which was done with a rotary converter "filing off all the high
spots and dumping it in the low spots" that was for all practical
concerns an autotransformer motor-generator. Rather efficient, no
drama, they just worked.

No high current solid state rectifier plants would be available for
many decades, and the early mercury tube rectifiers were unreliable
and lossy.

Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris CA has a totally restored and
operating rotary converter station on display and available for tours.
The Auto-Start and Auto-Stop sequencing with a huge cam switch (and a
current sensing setup so it could do it all by itself as a trolley
came through the served rural district) is a true display of Rube
Goldberg Engineering - and they let me push the button, too.

Nice panel mounted open-frame contactors with arc chutes sending
controlled little gouts of flame toward the floor...
He didn't say that. The context makes it very clear that by "phase conductors"
he means what the NEC refers to as "ungrounded conductors", or, in the
vernacular, "hot wires".


I won't go into the use of EMT as a ground source.


EMT is explicitly permitted by the NEC as an equipment grounding conductor.
[2008 National Electrical Code, Article 250.118(4)]

Yes, on the solid run, but not after any couplings, connectors etc..
A Greed Wire is to be inserted in the pipe to insure a real grounding
system and each box is to be connected to this ground.

You can not use EMT or the like for a grounding source directly, it
has to have a ground wire in it and the attached equipment in the
circuit also connects to this same ground.

As for the article you popped up, I think you'll find it proteins to
the use of EMT as a grounding buss point, meaning, several grounds can
come off this point using ground clamps from a single run with no
couplings how ever, a main ground source must be bonded to this pipe.

If you truly believe otherwise, then you are practicing very dangerous
habits.

Haven't you ever heard of galvanetic issues with EMT hardware?

I work in a manufactory facility where we still have a lot of older
machines using the access boxes as the ground sources for attached
equipment with no internal ground wire feed from the main buss. I can
say in the time that I have been there, we have seen several fires from
lose EMT hardware connections causing arcs because the attached
equipment was having ground issues.

With dust,oil and paint that has been apply to these machines, it
makes a nice catalysis for a fire.
Most of the time if your lucky, the lose connects will weld them
self's long enough to force the protection to initiate.

That NEC section starts out: The equipment grounding conductor
shall be ONE OR MORE OR A COMBINATION OF THE FOLLOWING...

You CAN used the EMT as the sole safety ground source in older
installations, it is "legal" to do so - but you would be a fool to
trust it as truly safe.

I always combine them - you make up the conduit system properly as
one of the grounding paths, then run a seperate grounding conductor
inside the conduit, even if it really isn't called for - because WHEN
someone gets hurt or killed they start asking a lot of very
uncomfortable questions. And if they don't like the answers...

Electrical safety is a very odd thing - For any situation there are
many correct answers and many wrong ones. Pick one or more of the
correct ones, and avoid the known wrong ones.

Legal, but not necessarily smart. But if the customer refuses to
pay for a seperate grounding conductor to get the job done a little
cheaper, and it is legal the way they want it done, there isn't a lot
you can do.

Then again, most of those old buildings have large amounts of steel
in them as building materials, and they will serve as secondary ground
paths - unintentional, but whatever works...
yeah, I bet their GFCI's really worked reliably in wet places.

I bet workers just love how they got shocks now and then from
aux equipment.

P.S.
Old mills are grand fathered in, unless, they do updates. Any
new installations are suppose to follow code. also, years ago
it was common when switching the mill over to higher voltages, they
kept on using lower voltage receptacles. There was a transition period
allowed to give plenty of time for the switch over, mean while, they
simply did things like 480 volts in a 240 volt receptacle.. AUX
equipment would use the 208/240 etc. plugs with 480 in it.

Still today, this is being done! shame! shame!

It gets corrected when an outside entity blows up an expensive piece
of test gear - and then bills the plant for it...
There are exceptions to the rules how ever, insurance companies
love to force these old places to update their basic electricals with
modern wiring systems, cause they know these old mills are full of code
violations.! and grounding and old clothe wire is a big one these days,
along with wire rungs not out of reach or being protected via something
like a jacket (romix) or pipe with a ground in it.

Voltages below 50, can ignore most of everything that is in there how
ever, in this state, maybe others, the state government is now
attempting to enforce (more) low voltage licenses, installers licenses
etc.. of just about anything.

Just goes to show, its all about the money..

---
You should see the screw up that had to be corrected, hacked if you ask
me. we had a long run, a service installed from one of our 2000 amp sub
panel over to a machine that has a 500 HP drive in it along with some
other goodies. 3 EMT pipes were run, one for each phase, 2 1000 MCM in
each pipe. They ran a ground wire only in one pipe. Now keep in mind,
these pipes are running in parallel from the sub panel over to the
machine. Doing thermo imaging, we found 2 pipes were getting hot when
the machine was under heavy operation for a while. That started a
investigation. Its then we found that only 1 pipe had the ground wire
pulled.

All this was done by licensed contracted electricians. We do this
when the job is to large for the in house electricians.

The problem was correctly, not the way it really should of been, but
it covered it. We placed pipe ground clamps on both sides of each emt
connector and connected with copper bar. We later found out, that ground
couplers are made for cases like that in old factories that didn't have
ground wires in. oh well. Expensive as hell, just like the large amp
fuse adapters.

And the power was probably imbalanced, too. Never worked with
anything that big, but AFAICT the best practice is to have multiple
conduits in parallel, but run one conductor for each phase through
each conduit, and cut the wire so they are all matching lengths.

Each conduit would have a 750MCM of all three phases, and a smaller
ground. That way they magnetically cancel each other out on start
current Locked Rotor Amps surges.

Having one phase in each pipe puts a LOT of stress on the hangers,
every time that 500HP motor starts those conduits with individual
phases are trying to jump off the wall from the magnetic forces. And
if they manage to do it, they will short out and all hell is truly
going to break loose.

Or just give up and install Bus Duct like a practical person.

--<< Bruce >>--
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:




Well snot nosed is REALLY more of an inference is it not?

jk

No. SNOT NOSED is a retarded little bastard that is too stubborn to set
his clock right. You are that immature little retarded bastard.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
A particular inspectior in a particular jurisdiction might have
allowed this, but it would not be to code, and ther eIS NO GRANDFATHER
CLAUSE any where in the NEC.

Well, no, but any attempt at forcing compliance with a code that didn't exist
at the time the installation was made falls under the Constitutional
prohibitions against ex post facto legislation...
 
R

Richard Cranium

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:45:27 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

More proof of how clueless you are. Ever heard of attached storage,
dipshit? That is as temporary as it gets.


Kinda like your withered dick, eh Archie?
 
R

Richard Cranium

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:39:43 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

NO! You fucking idiot! As was stated already, My ID is in EVERY post I
make, and nothing you jack off at the mouth with about "lying" amounts to
a goddamned thing, you stupid twit.


Temper, temper Archie. I keep reminding you that such outbursts send
your blood pressure sky high. That is very dangerous, especially for
African Americans.
 
R

Richard Cranium

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:42:52 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

I am the sole member of the household, you pissy little bitch. I am
the sole user of the computer, despite YOUR retarded lies about it being
"mommy's".


Of course you are Archie. You are an admittedly celibate individual.
It's the years of pent-up semen that has flooded your cranial cavity
and caused your brain to shrink. This, coupled with the massive
complementary deposits of other individuals' semen filling your
stomach makes you a walking DNA repository for all of the dregs of
society. I'm surprised that the FBI doesn't declare you as material
evidence for every sex crime committed on the left coast.
 
R

Richard Cranium

Jan 1, 1970
0
It sure looks like Doug took you to the cleaners this time Archie.
He's made you expose yourself as the fucking moron you really are.

Buwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
 
R

Richard Cranium

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:52:07 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

You are lucky that I am a nice guy




Archie - that's quite a stretch, especially for the huge asswipe that
you are!
 
T

Thomas

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich. said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Actually, by code you can have 6 phase conductors, 3 neutrals, and use
the EMT as your ground, giving you 6 circuits instead of just 4.

True, but note the condition I mentioned: COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT
circuits. By this I mean sharing ONLY the EGC.

NEC 210.4(B) stipulates that multiwire branch circuits be provided with
a disconnecting means that simultaneously opens all ungrounded
conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates. Therefore,
since this is a residence and therefore 120/240 single-phase, a 3-wire
branch circuit requires either a 2-pole breaker or two single-poles with
handle ties installed. This means they are NOT completely independent as
I stipulated.

My reasoning is this: if one leg trips due to an overload or short, it
makes it more difficult to determine the cause. Which leg has the fault?
Now TWO circuits I'd have to unload then test individually. It seems
more practical to just pull a dedicated grounded conductor for each
phase conductor and use single-pole breakers. This may seem a bit silly
or unnecessary, but from a practical standpoint it makes more sense.
Besides, Joe Homeowner who is living here after me in all likelihood
will not know about this code requirement (210.4(B)) and wonder why
there are numerous 15A and 20A 2-pole breakers in the service panel, and
why single-pole breakers were not used. Never mind opening a J-box to
add a light or receptacle and discovering two dozen or so wires in a
J-box...

I am keeping in mind that I am rewiring a RESIDENCE and that supervised
alterations and/or maintenance of this electrical installation is NOT
guarantied.

Thomas
 
J

jk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Set your goddamned PC clock right, you absolute retard.

Since this is your second eloquent post----
If you can't deal with it get off the usenet, get a life, infact just
start counting on your 13 toes. Not that you are anything but a
useless, small minded, fowl mouthed, troll.
jk
 
J

jk

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems that way to you. More study can reveal how those
distribution voltages are related. You may bother or not.

I know exactly how they are related, (I some how doubt that you do
given the phrasing in your post) and I know exactly who provides what,
and why, but that in NO way makes them 'standardized'.
"You may believe that or not", it matters nothing.

jk
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:56:33 -0400, Jamie

Doug Miller wrote:


Rich. wrote:




a foot. With THHN, I can safely install nine #12s in one 1/2" EMT, for 4
_completely independent_ 20A circuits (4 phase conductors, 4 grounded
conductors, and one grounding conductor).


Actually, by code you can have 6 phase conductors, 3 neutrals, and use
the EMT as your ground, giving you 6 circuits instead of just 4.

I would like to know where you have 6 phase service?


He didn't say that. The context makes it very clear that by "phase conductors"
he means what the NEC refers to as "ungrounded conductors", or, in the
vernacular, "hot wires".

I won't go into the use of EMT as a ground source.


EMT is explicitly permitted by the NEC as an equipment grounding conductor.
[2008 National Electrical Code, Article 250.118(4)]
Yes, on the solid run, but not after any couplings, connectors etc..
A Greed Wire is to be inserted in the pipe to insure a real grounding
system and each box is to be connected to this ground.

You can not use EMT or the like for a grounding source directly, it
has to have a ground wire in it and the attached equipment in the
circuit also connects to this same ground.

As for the article you popped up, I think you'll find it proteins to
the use of EMT as a grounding buss point, meaning, several grounds can
come off this point using ground clamps from a single run with no
couplings how ever, a main ground source must be bonded to this pipe.

If you truly believe otherwise, then you are practicing very dangerous
habits.

Haven't you ever heard of galvanetic issues with EMT hardware?

I work in a manufactory facility where we still have a lot of older
machines using the access boxes as the ground sources for attached
equipment with no internal ground wire feed from the main buss. I can
say in the time that I have been there, we have seen several fires from
lose EMT hardware connections causing arcs because the attached
equipment was having ground issues.

With dust,oil and paint that has been apply to these machines, it
makes a nice catalysis for a fire.
Most of the time if your lucky, the lose connects will weld them
self's long enough to force the protection to initiate.




Then the various Licensed Electricians who installed machines etc over
the years at the factory I finished tearing down yesterday were all
doing it illegally. 75,000 sq ft and no grounds in any of the
boxes/runs.

California btw..Anaheim.


Jamie is a ham radio operator who claims to be an engineer. He is
about as bright as the 50+ sock puppet dimbulb troll.

his real name and address are:

Maynard A Philbrook, Jr
520 Pleasant St.
Willimantic Ct. 06226

He claims his company continues to use chemicals banned by the EPA,
that he reused outlets at higher than rated voltages where he works. He
pretends he is intelligent, but rarely makes a post without a dozen
spelling and punctuation errors, along with words that make no sense. A
lot like your friend Bill Sloman who cross posts here sometimes. The
old SOB who whines about everything American, and that they discriminate
against him in Europe, because he's old.


Are you done, pussy?

Do you think it is very wise posting people's private contact info
without being solicited to do so is a wise move?

And you are retarded enough to think that someone is going to be showing
up at my door?

So you are admitting that his summery of you, is correct.

The term is summary, you retarded twit, and he was not talking to me,
dumbfuck.
Maynard.....damn...I didnt think parents would do that to kids anymore.

So does your first name explain your dementia? Or does the A stand for
Asswipe?

Jamie is Jamie. You are a brainless twit, on the other hand. Thanks for
exposing yourself as such, so that folks can easily recognize you and
filter and ignore you.

The total retard that thinks he ranks high in society. You barely rate
retard, retard. Your sig proves that.
 
J

jk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bart! said:
It is Usenet, you stupid twit, and Usenet has "posting conventions",
Get a dictionary an look up "conventions"
not gang boy mentality rampant anarchy, dumbfuck.
Not "impolite foul mouthed rampant spamming" either, but then you do
like to do that.
Grow the **** up.
I did. Probably before your momma was done with your diapers, given
the teenage level of your discourse here.
Did your retarded father teach you that one, dumbfuck?
You do seem rather stuck on that word, is your insult auto-responder
running out of synonyms for your own name?
Sorry, dipshit, but someone relating standard Usenet conventions to you
is not trolling.

Spewing is not 'relating", but I will grant that the VERY small part
of your spewage that relates to that can not be completely so
categorized. But given that it still is <.01% of your total
garbage......

If you look like a troll, and spew like a troll, we can not be truly
taken to task, just because one small part of your ancestry has fairy
in it.
You disregarding said conventions,
And in exactly WHAT way is having my clock set in a way that messes
with your autospammer "disregarding" a "convention?
Set your PC clock right, you inconsiderate fucking Usenet Retard!
Just to make a foul mouthed multi headed spamming troll happy?
(You really need to increase your available range of insults. Your
lack of shading and subtlety makes you a faded dot matrix printer, in
a color inkjet on photo paper world.)
jk
 
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