Re: Liability & responsibility of electrician?

[William Sommerwerck]

I would have two simple questions...

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)

Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

No, there wouldn't be. But if he botched the job, he has to be held
responsible. Doesn't he?

Of course, one might argue that if the person who hired him /knew/ he wasn't
an electrician, and didn't have the work inspected, then he (the hirer) is
responsible for whatever went wrong.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?

What you have not said is what was the voltage supposed to be?

Where? Common and regular practice as you call it varies from country to
country.

Also what was the actual voltage at the old location. If it was supposed to
be 240 volts then 245 is well within actual variations, or the calibration
of a meter.

If it was supposed to be 208 or 220 or 308, etc then it is too high.

This to me is starting to get tedious. A simple question of "who was at fault"
has become a "pissing contest" over who can make the most outrageous guess
as to why their champion is guilt free.

IMHO it really boils down to exactly what the owner of the business expected
when he hired "the guy". If he hired someone he knew was unlicensed, he
should have had the work inspected or hired a licensed electrician. Otherwise
he was taking a chance that he would never get caught cheating, and he lost.

As for the CNC device failing, his expectation of "the guy" to open it up
and adjust the voltage tapes is unreasonable. Again he took a chance that
he could move the device without hiring the proper technician to pack it up,
unpack it after arival and set it up. And again, he lost.

Considering the worst outcome of it would have been a fire destroying the
building, everything in it and killing all the people involved, a $4000
controller failure, which was probably not caused by the voltage problem
anyway, is a small price to pay for loosing.

As for insurance, no property insurance will cover damage due to illegal
repairs, etc, which includes uninspected work done by unlicensed electricians,
and no manufacturer will cover damage due to untrained technicians modifying
the equipment (even to move the voltage taps), or damage caused by over
voltage due to an unlicensed electrician wiring the equipment.

There may also be civil and criminal liability here, the best thing to do
IMHO is to have the company and "the guy" come to an agreement where they
will leave him alone, and eat the loss. They will then pay for any repairs
to the equipment and "the work" as legally mandated.

Geoff.

 

[Rich.]

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice
to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and
such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely
had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?

It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied. IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

Two, I never met a house electrician

CNC machines are NOT 'house electrician' level work.

Where did you get the idea that this was a 'house installation'?

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".

No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.


In what way?

220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.

You're nuts. Maybe at the end of a 100 yard long run. Maybe.

There is no reason, however, for the entire feed to a building to sag
that far between loaded and unloaded.

 

[krw]

220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.

220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.

Read the post,idiot. If there are no 220 volt service provisions, why
are there "220 volt taps" on equipment?

AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.

 

[Rich.]

1) 245VAC is *not* a problem in a nominal 240VAC supply.

That is correct until you factor in that the taps were set to 220v. If the
taps were set at 240, then 245v would never have been a problem.

 

[krw]

Read the post,idiot. If there are no 220 volt service provisions, why
are there "220 volt taps" on equipment?

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.

AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.

Different issue, AlwaysWrong.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.

Yet the taps are still made available on equipment, you idiot. That is
also what may have caused to over-voltage condition, IDIOT. Improper tap
selection does cause failure modes.

You are so 'never was'.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

Different issue, AlwaysWrong.

No. It is precisely the issue in this case, you idiot.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

The standard USENET rule applies:

THEN DON'T RESPOND.

Yes and start out by NOT cross posting horseshit questions into several
groups.

That is a retarded nym, but somehow the stupidity of it does fit you.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

Then blame the idiot who configured it for 220, which hasn't been the
specification in decades. It wasn't you, was it?

Then WHY are machine designers and manufacturers STILL placing the taps
on feed panels?

You have all the common sense of a fucking shitfly.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?

You fucking retards!

Most vocational schools use second hand machinery. Many have machines
that old in them. So do many shops, you retarded, knows less than
nothing twit.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

I guarantee it doesn't match yours.

You seem to think that since you understand the rules of making a
connection that you understand electrical power.

I doubt seriously that you have such a grasp of the industry.

 

[James Sweet]

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.

Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected
by an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed
electrician to be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but
there is no law against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced
electrical service panels and added circuits for renovations in the
homes of quite a few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but
it was no trouble to get a permit and have the work inspected when it
was complete. Even licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.