OT: PhD in Electronic Engineering

[JosephKK]

With a P.E. (P.Eng in Canada) a license is granted by a professional
organization wot can discipline the practicioner if we are found to
violate the written code of ethics or are incompetent. The actual
practice of professional engineering (according to some reasonable
definitions and with some given exclusions) may be limited to members
of the organization. Much as with other professions such as medicine
and law.

It's obviously not a substitute for knowledge and experience, and
isn't all that required outside of certain industries (aerospace,
utilities etc.). Generally if a mistake can result in personal injury
or death it's more likely to be required. The requirements in Ontario
are to have met confirmed education (at least a 4-year degree, IIRC)
and experience requirements (some years working under a licensed
engineer) and to pass a written exam covering both law and ethics.
If you don't have skills that are in demand, it won't make a lick of
difference, IMO.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany, P.Eng PMP

In the US the P.E. exam covers the basics of the field (electrical /
civil / mechanical). If you pass that you get a do an at home with crib
sheet (provided in some states) "test" that covers the law and ethics.
At least back when i got mine that was the way it worked.

 

[JosephKK]

Most aerospace guys *are*. Anything structural especially.. Don't
know about medical-- they seem to be more interested in how deep the
insurance pockets are than qualifications in my limited experience.

I don't think there is a culture in automotive that puts liability on
the heads of the engineers. In civil and much of mechanical there
certainly is.

Golly, BS degree and 2 years qualifying experience is onerous???

Looks like at least some states have a technical content to the exam,
which seems pretty redundant unless they feel they don't have a way of
knowing if the degrees are any good.

Across the US most if not all states use the NCEES test materials and it
is pretty much all technical, but sophomore and junior year stuff. Canada
may use NCEES as well.

To be completely compliant you'd probably have to maintain licenses in
every jurisdiction in which you have customers, which is pretty
impractical, but in general I think the self-regulating body approach
is the correct one for a profession. These days they're even extending
their tentacles to technicians, which I think is going too far- more
of a money grab, but then companies like Microsoft started it with
their "certification" money-making activities.

No, IBM was doing it before Gates was born. All the Unix vendors and
Novell copied it before M$ did.

 

[JosephKK]

Doesn't it seem like it would make a lot more sense to instead revert the
graduation requirements for BSEEs to something a little more in-depth, as they
were decades back?

While there's no question that for some people there's great value to behad
in an MSEE, in many cases I just don't see that value being equal to, e.g.,
the, say, $25-$50k in tuition/room/board/etc. getting it will incur as well as
losing out on (say) two years of a $30-$50k (entry level) job.

You do not have to piss away that much money, since i happen to be in
California i can get one from CSU instead, for a fraction of that price,
nor would i have to give up my high paying job, it would just take
longer.

Upper-level formal education strikes me as even less useful for many a
programmer: I knew plenty of bright kids coming out of high school who were
better programmers than many a BSCS graduate I've met. John Carmack only
spent two semesters at college before going freelance, Tim Sweeney was working
on a BSME that he didn't quite finish (although he does credit the math
courses in helping him greatly), and of course everyone knows about Bill
Gates.

Is an MSCS going to become the "new standard" as well? :-(

It's highly disheartening that we're becoming a society where titles aremore
important than performance. It's a house of cards that's not at all in the
tradition of what made this country great.

---Joel

I do not see this change as incorporating the CS arena; strictly
engineers. Remember the "CS" study has the word "science" in it;
therefore it is not one.

 

[JosephKK]

I imagine some would like to see these "moves afoot" come to be. It would
simply cheapen the BSEE degree.

It is largely driver by certifiable idiots that have BSEE and PE. I can
introduce you if you want to meet some.

How about that AGW?

Right there with flat earth.

 

[[email protected]]

It is largely driver by certifiable idiots that have BSEE and PE. I can
introduce you if you want to meet some.

....and your plan would solve this how?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

I never understood the sense of it. When IEEE wanted to push PE I told
them I'd cancel my membership if they did. Just imagine, a trade
organization being in favor of bringing _more_ bureaucratic burdens on
their own membership. How sick is that?

What "bureaucratic burdens"? It's simply a one-time entry barrier,
plus a small annual overhead, unless you screw up fairly badly. Unless
there are entry barriers you don't really have a profession. It would
be like programmers rather than doctors or lawyers. Anyone can call
himself or herself a programmer, not everyone can legally call
themselves a doctor, lawyer or professional engineer.

Well, they stopped, so I am still a member

What's the benefit in it? Cheaper group insurance? Another magazine to
skim in the john?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Golly, BS degree and 2 years qualifying experience is onerous???

You also have to have a "good character". ;-)

Across the US most if not all states use the NCEES test materials and it
is pretty much all technical, but sophomore and junior year stuff. Canada
may use NCEES as well.

No, Ontario candidates who have accredited (by the CEAB, a branch of
the PEO) education don't need to be retested on technical matters. But
they're quite serious about the law and ethics exam.

Actually as this is a self-regulating profession (with a bit of
legislation to give teeth to the enforcement folks) the bureacracy is
not too bad.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[[email protected]]

If you can get your employer to pay for your MSEE -- and Keith and I both did
-- then the balance absolutely tips into the "clearly worth doing" side of
things.

They paid, but I didn't finish. The classes were *really* bad (recycled profs
they didn't want teaching the "real" students).

It might not have been the best possible investment for my employer's money,
but I'd say it was at least one of average payback.

(0 + 0)/2 = 0

 

[JosephKK]

...and your plan would solve this how?

I never said that plan would do a lick of good. Just that some wanted to
go that way. And it looks inevitable (IEEE would like it).
I have a different idea, quit giving away BSEEs to innumerate illiterates
who would not be caught dead with a soldering iron or a screwdriver and
cannot operate an oscilloscope.

 

[Joerg]

What "bureaucratic burdens"? It's simply a one-time entry barrier,
plus a small annual overhead, unless you screw up fairly badly. Unless
there are entry barriers you don't really have a profession. It would
be like programmers rather than doctors or lawyers. Anyone can call
himself or herself a programmer, not everyone can legally call
themselves a doctor, lawyer or professional engineer.

As I've mentioned: Many license boards require two things. First,
university course work must be ABET, not the case for most older folks
or people who studied overseas. 2nd, they often require you to have
worked under the supervision of a PE for typically 4 years minimum. In
medical there aren't any PEs, hence ...

The entry barrier is the university. IMHO professors are the ones who
shall decide who is fit to be an engineer, not some bureaucrats who
don't even know how to draw up a simple diff-amp. At my alma mater about
83% of the guys I started out with failed to make it through to the
masters. I guess that's enough of a barrier, ain't it?

What's the benefit in it? Cheaper group insurance? Another magazine to
skim in the john?

I ask myself that every year. Group insurance isn't worth spit right
now, IMHO. Spectrum is often really good, and so are some society
papers. For example, even if it's rare I do sometimes need access to the
latest and greatest in ultrasound, and without membership that would
cost beaucoup bucks (more than the dues). The other upside is that it
adds to my credibility in front of new clients, mainly because I am
bound by the IEEE Code of Ethics and by that of VDE (also member there).

 

[[email protected]]

As I've mentioned: Many license boards require two things. First,
university course work must be ABET, not the case for most older folks
or people who studied overseas. 2nd, they often require you to have
worked under the supervision of a PE for typically 4 years minimum. In
medical there aren't any PEs, hence ...

The entry barrier is the university. IMHO professors are the ones who
shall decide who is fit to be an engineer, not some bureaucrats who
don't even know how to draw up a simple diff-amp. At my alma mater about
83% of the guys I started out with failed to make it through to the
masters. I guess that's enough of a barrier, ain't it?

They flunked out something like 20-25% each year in the first two years. After
that, it was almost unheard of to flunk out in the major coursework. I doubt
anyone flunked out of the masters program. I'm sure many didn't make it,
mainly because of the thesis requirement. The masters program I started
didn't even require a thesis. Two courses (30 credits, rather than 24) could
be substituted. Most of the working engineers did a project and used their
work projects. Like I said, it was a joke.

I ask myself that every year. Group insurance isn't worth spit right
now, IMHO. Spectrum is often really good, and so are some society
papers. For example, even if it's rare I do sometimes need access to the
latest and greatest in ultrasound, and without membership that would
cost beaucoup bucks (more than the dues). The other upside is that it
adds to my credibility in front of new clients, mainly because I am
bound by the IEEE Code of Ethics and by that of VDE (also member there).

Obama swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, too.

 

[[email protected]]

I never said that plan would do a lick of good. Just that some wanted to
go that way. And it looks inevitable (IEEE would like it).

Ok, it looked like you were supporting this silly idea.

I have a different idea, quit giving away BSEEs to innumerate illiterates

That would be my choice, too.

who would not be caught dead with a soldering iron or a screwdriver and
cannot operate an oscilloscope.

There are a *lot* of engineers who will never touch a soldering iron or
oscilloscope. Most, I would think, would open a can of paint at some time in
their lives, though. ;-)

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

There are a *lot* of engineers who will never touch a soldering iron or
oscilloscope. Most, I would think, would open a can of paint at some time in
their lives, though. ;-)

Or perhaps nail polish.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[[email protected]]

Or perhaps nail polish.

Do you open nail polish with a soldering iron or a screwdriver?

 

[Joerg]

I repeat:

http://www.ncees.org/Licensure/Licensure_for_engineers.php

Quote: "Earn a degree from an ABET-accredited engineering program." That
alone is a joke and also de-facto age discrimination.

Quote: "Gain acceptable work experience (typically a minimum of four
years). In most cases, this must be completed under the supervision of a
P.E." Which, for example, in my case is impossible because there are no
PEs in the industries I work. Certainly never met one in medical and
that's now 24 years and counting.

You also have to have a "good character". ;-)

One expression that made me chuckle was "... must not have committed
acts of moral turpitude"

No, Ontario candidates who have accredited (by the CEAB, a branch of
the PEO) education don't need to be retested on technical matters. But
they're quite serious about the law and ethics exam.

Actually as this is a self-regulating profession (with a bit of
legislation to give teeth to the enforcement folks) the bureacracy is
not too bad.

My first encounter with a PE (civil engineer) resulted in me (!) finding
a bug in his calcs and rationale ...

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Do you open nail polish with a soldering iron or a screwdriver?

I have used it to glue trimpots. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[[email protected]]

I have used it to glue trimpots. ;-)

Yeah, sure. Yep, trimpots, that's the ticket. ;-)

 

[[email protected]]

Yes, but he never said he wouldn't rip it up and burn it before he
put the ashes in an urn.

That interpretation of "preserve, protect and defend" makes as much sense as
anything else the moron has done.

 

[[email protected]]

I repeat:

http://www.ncees.org/Licensure/Licensure_for_engineers.php

Quote: "Earn a degree from an ABET-accredited engineering program." That
alone is a joke and also de-facto age discrimination.

How so?

Quote: "Gain acceptable work experience (typically a minimum of four
years). In most cases, this must be completed under the supervision of a
P.E." Which, for example, in my case is impossible because there are no
PEs in the industries I work. Certainly never met one in medical and
that's now 24 years and counting.

If there are no PEs in the industry, obviously the shingle isn't of much use.
I've worked around PEs all my career. The only use the shingle had was to put
some pompous letter behind their name on a business card. Might just as well
put "A+" after their name, though.

One expression that made me chuckle was "... must not have committed
acts of moral turpitude"
Rats!


My first encounter with a PE (civil engineer) resulted in me (!) finding
a bug in his calcs and rationale ...

Not surprising for an EE to find errors in a CE's (EE) work. Like I said in
an earlier post, when I was in school the EIT had *no* electrical questions.
It was all CE stuff, for which I'd never even taken a course. Useless.

 

[Joerg]

How so?

Foreign universities and US universities in the 70's or 80's usually did
not have ABET accreditation. Whatever it means, I am not a fan of that
anyhow. One shall leave the curriculum and all that to the people who
know, and that would be the professor at that university.

If there are no PEs in the industry, obviously the shingle isn't of much use.
I've worked around PEs all my career. The only use the shingle had was to put
some pompous letter behind their name on a business card. Might just as well
put "A+" after their name, though.

Yep. Such onerous requirements lead the whole thing almost ad absurdum.
It is not useful IMHO. Seems like our state saw it that way as well when
they decided to just make the board a small group under the Department
of Consumer Affairs many years ago.

Not surprising for an EE to find errors in a CE's (EE) work. Like I said in
an earlier post, when I was in school the EIT had *no* electrical questions.
It was all CE stuff, for which I'd never even taken a course. Useless.

I found the errors in inclination calcs, not exactly EE stuff. Plus
flaws in interpretation of the law. Findings which I presented at a
pretty crowded meeting and again in a certified mailing, just to make
sure the message is "driven home" properly and would hold in court if
necessary. There was some silence afterwards, and then full compliance
with what I thought needs to happen, not what they thought needs to
happen. Oh did everyone become friendly, like day and night

Could go further but not in public, because on a personal level I liked
the guy. Not sure he's still around, he was older.