OT: PhD in Electronic Engineering

[Bob]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if the experienced engineers in the "real world" could
help me out a little with this:

I'm about to finish my BEng in Electronic Engineering (UK degree), and
last week an academic from my university offered me a fully funded
(tuition fees + living expenses) PhD in analog IC design. Great, I
thought, a free PhD, working with a bunch of great people, in an area
that interest me, at one of the top universities in the country.

BUT:
I am not really aiming for a career in academia, or full-on research,
for that matter. In fact, I have always been more of a hands-on guy,
doing electronics as a hobby for quite a while now. For after uni, I was
hoping to land a job as an electronics design engineer (hence posting
here), because I think I might enjoy actually making stuff that sees use
in the real world.

Now, I have doubts if a PhD will do me any good for that kind of career
goal. First, I'm not sure whether employers for "normal" electronics R&D
jobs even want PhDs - I'm assuming a bachelor's or master's degree with
work experience would be more appreciated. Then, there is also this
smell of a highly specialized theoretician that a PhD carries (hence why
I haven't considered doing one so far). Although I'm wondering if my
electronics hobby could show that I am actually someone who knows about
"real world" electronics. Though I might just have illusions about how
electronic engineering actually is "out there"...

An alternative would be to spend another year on a taught MSc
(coursework on MSc level, but no strong research component), to just get
a more specialized education, without the ivory tower appeal of a PhD.

I also have this job with a 2-man shop lined up where I could work for
one year pretty much doing electronics design on my own, just to get a
nice portfolio to show off when applying for a "real" company afterwards.

It's probably just worth mentioning that I don't really intend to settle
down in the UK, so it would be interesting how this issue is viewed
somewhere else.

So, my questions to the seasoned engineers:
PhD for electronics: even bother?
If yes, to what extent does doing practical work on the side help?
Or would you rather recommend just getting a "quick" MSc?
Or not bother with further education at all, and just dive straight into
the real word?
Any other suggestions?

I am looking forward to your comments!

Cheers,

Robert

 

[David L. Jones]

So, my questions to the seasoned engineers:
PhD for electronics: even bother?

Generally no, it's a hinderance for the majority of practical industry jobs.
You could however always leave it completely off your Resume for some
jobs...

If yes, to what extent does doing practical work on the side help?

Practical work is everything.
One you have experinence your qualifications become almost irrelevant. But a
PhD can often be a hinderance to getting a practical job.

Or would you rather recommend just getting a "quick" MSc?

That generally won't hurt.

Or not bother with further education at all, and just dive straight
into the real word?

Nothing beats real world experience.
But on the flip side getting further education later on in life can be
tough, better to get that while you are yong.

Dave.

 

[petrus bitbyter]

Don't be a dickhead - Do the PhD. The only people who will say you don't
need a PhD are people who don't have one. You will probably never get
another opportunity and you will certainly never get a better opportunity.
A PhD will open a vast range of doors that an undergrad degree won't and
many doors a Master's won't. If for a particular reason it might be a
hindrance than you can leave it out of the resume, but those cases will be
rare and will also becoming rarer.

50 year ago a certificate was a "good" qualification and you could get a
job almost anywhere, 30 years ago a diploma was "good" but it's not now,
in another 10 - 20 years an undergrad degree will not be as any where near
as valuable as it once was. The world-wide emphasis in business now is to
employ qualifications to ensure compliance to regulations. That won't
change unless all the worlds lawyers, politicians, bureaucrats and
lawsuits disappear. If you don't have the paper you won't get through the
door, regardless of how skilled you are. The practical experience is
invaluable to you - but note well the order in which things happen - If
you don't have the paper you won't get through the door, regardless of how
skilled you are.

Fully agree.

petrus bitbyter

 

[Bob]

Hi,

Generally no, it's a hinderance for the majority of practical industry jobs.
You could however always leave it completely off your Resume for some
jobs...

Ok, thanks for your opinion there.
But just out of curiosity (and since David Eather mentioned it, too):
Wouldn't leaving it off a resume look pretty weird? And after all, I'd
imagine the prospective employer inquire about that 3-year gap, so
"hiding" won't really work

That generally won't hurt.

Good to know...

Nothing beats real world experience.
But on the flip side getting further education later on in life can be
tough, better to get that while you are yong.

That's one reason why I've also brought up that taught MSc: Right now
I'm still in that whole "student thought pattern", and I could do
another year easily. But in ten years perhaps - not so sure.

Anyway, thank you very much so far,

Robert

PS: Looking forward to your EEVblog live show later - good luck with that!

 

[Bob]

Hi,

You will probably never get
another opportunity and you will certainly never get a better
opportunity.

That's the exact reason why I'm having a hard time just saying "no
thanks": The offer is just so juicy, and it's really an unique opportunity.

50 year ago a certificate was a "good" qualification and you could get a
job almost anywhere, 30 years ago a diploma was "good" but it's not now,
in another 10 - 20 years an undergrad degree will not be as any where
near as valuable as it once was.
True.

If you don't have the paper you won't get through
the door, regardless of how skilled you are. The practical experience is
invaluable to you - but note well the order in which things happen - If
you don't have the paper you won't get through the door, regardless of
how skilled you are.

Point taken, especially with respect to the "devaluation" of
qualifications you mentioned before.
But I'm wondering: If there is an employer who is really keen that all
applicants have the right paper, surely this could work against higher
qualifications, too? In other words, if an employer wants to hire
someone and believe they need a MSc, why should they hire (and pay for)
a PhD? Just wondering...

Thanks for your good post!

Cheers,

Robert

 

[qrk]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if the experienced engineers in the "real world" could
help me out a little with this:

I'm about to finish my BEng in Electronic Engineering (UK degree), and
last week an academic from my university offered me a fully funded
(tuition fees + living expenses) PhD in analog IC design. Great, I
thought, a free PhD, working with a bunch of great people, in an area
that interest me, at one of the top universities in the country.

BUT:
I am not really aiming for a career in academia, or full-on research,
for that matter. In fact, I have always been more of a hands-on guy,
doing electronics as a hobby for quite a while now. For after uni, I was
hoping to land a job as an electronics design engineer (hence posting
here), because I think I might enjoy actually making stuff that sees use
in the real world.

Now, I have doubts if a PhD will do me any good for that kind of career
goal. First, I'm not sure whether employers for "normal" electronics R&D
jobs even want PhDs - I'm assuming a bachelor's or master's degree with
work experience would be more appreciated. Then, there is also this
smell of a highly specialized theoretician that a PhD carries (hence why
I haven't considered doing one so far). Although I'm wondering if my
electronics hobby could show that I am actually someone who knows about
"real world" electronics. Though I might just have illusions about how
electronic engineering actually is "out there"...

An alternative would be to spend another year on a taught MSc
(coursework on MSc level, but no strong research component), to just get
a more specialized education, without the ivory tower appeal of a PhD.

I also have this job with a 2-man shop lined up where I could work for
one year pretty much doing electronics design on my own, just to get a
nice portfolio to show off when applying for a "real" company afterwards.

It's probably just worth mentioning that I don't really intend to settle
down in the UK, so it would be interesting how this issue is viewed
somewhere else.

So, my questions to the seasoned engineers:
PhD for electronics: even bother?
If yes, to what extent does doing practical work on the side help?
Or would you rather recommend just getting a "quick" MSc?
Or not bother with further education at all, and just dive straight into
the real word?
Any other suggestions?

I am looking forward to your comments!

Cheers,

Robert

An opportunity to learn analog IC design is something you don't want
to turn down, PhD or not. Even if you don't end up doing IC design,
the knowledge will be handy if you stick with circuit design.

 

[Bob]

Hi,

A Ph.D. wouldn't hurt of course, particularly if you can somehow
manage to start any kind of "part time" gig to at least chip away at
the experience curve.

Yes, that's what I was hoping to be able to do, just to show that I'm
not just good at producing stacks of paper.

Another "benefit" of a Ph.D. status is that it will likely shut you
out of low-paying, low-advancement opportunities you probably wouldn't
want in the first place.
An insurance policy of sorts, to keep you from accepting dead-end
jobs.

Good point!

In any event, the better letters to put behind your name would be
P.E., not simply Ph.D.
I feel that would open up many more doors, and financial rewards for
you.

Yes! I understand very well the benefits of a professional engineering
status, and I would see that I could obtain one.

Thanks for your comments!

Cheers,

Robert

 

[Bob]

Hi,

....or one of those infamous university spin-outs

To also answer Tim Wescott's "What do you want to do?" question here:
As I've said, I've been doing "classic" hobby electronics (probably 25
years late for that, but whatever), building all sorts of gear, learning
from explosive escapes of magic smoke, getting my own small lab set up,
and whatnot.

Now I have this quaint image that there may be a small number of
electronics design jobs that do around exactly that: Come up with a
solution to a problem, try it on the bench, see that it makes it to the
real world. The "fun stuff", as you say.

I was actually fairly lucky with my past summer jobs (and that other job
I would be able to take for a while) at that small shop, because there I
could do exactly that: "We need some special current source" "Yes, can
do!" "Now something in MATLAB to control it" "Yes, sir!" and so on. But
working there is no real option in the long run ($-wise), and I also
fear that a "jack of all trades" in EE is becoming more and more an
illusion for most industries thanks to things getting more and more
complex (correct me if I'm wrong there).

Fair enough, and good to know.

A PhD is useless for _circuit_ design. Circuit design is an art,
either you have it, or you don't

True. Come to think of it, there is actually a fair number of
electronics books that have "Art" in their title... should make one
think!

Thanks to both of you!

Cheers,

Robert

 

[Bob]

Hi,

For getting a "regular" job you can make it not matter: on your resume
put an "objectives" section that says "getting real world experience at
a (insert your smarmy positive adjective here) company", and when you
interview just blush and say it was fully funded and you couldn't resist.

That's actually a really good suggestion (in my eyes at least)! Like it
much better than just leaving a 3-year gap, and it's actually the truth:
It's hard to resist, and I suppose most can understand that.

There are jobs for which having a PhD is a real help. PhD's seem to
impress the hell out of non-engineers. [...]

Good insights on the social aspects there, thanks for that! That's
really the kind of angle I'm totally lacking right now as a student with
not too much experience out there.

Cheers,

Robert

 

[Joerg]

To Bob: Depends on what they want you to do during that Ph.D. time. If
it's an interesting topic go for it. If not, I wouldn't do it but that's
my personal opinion. I also was offered a Ph.D. track (paid) but
declined. I had seen first hand the bureaucratic hurdles while doing my
final project. For example, getting materials was a pain in the neck. I
just wanted them to hand me my masters and then hightail it into
industry. Which is what I did, never looked back.

As for what Ph.D. does on a resume, as a hiring manager I never cared.
It was neither a plus nor a minus. Leaving it off the resume may not be
so cool because an alert interviewer will want to know what you did
during all those years.

All they can do is court martial you for being creative in the
military. They tried to do that to me after I made a replacement TV
tuner, for a piece of TV broadcast equipment. The original was NLA, and
a custom replacement from the OEM was more than the piece of equipment
cost new. It was critical to the operation of the station. It was an
all tube TV demodulator with a wafer switch type TV tuner. Several of
the wafers were broken, and we couldn't look at our OTA signal on the
other test equipment without it.

I got read the riot act because a clandestine soldering iron (mine, from
home) was found on our multiplex truck during an unannounced inspection
and unfortunately some big brass was present. A contributing factor to
the summons was a <gasp> unauthorized non-drab-green and thus
non-army-issue spool of solder. One was supposed to call the maintenance
truck and never, ever, blah, blah, blah. This was all actually not said
but hollered at me.

After a brief "discussion" I got them to check some records. Turns out
our multiplex truck was the only one that never failed to report being
fully operational when commanded to be, and in record time. And we had
never called the service truck, ever. "Umm, ok, that's impressive. But
make sure we never FIND a solder iron again on your unit, will ya?" ...
"Yes, SIR!", saluted, and went back to business as usual.

 

[Ian Bell]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if the experienced engineers in the "real world" could
help me out a little with this:

I'm about to finish my BEng in Electronic Engineering (UK degree), and
last week an academic from my university offered me a fully funded
(tuition fees + living expenses) PhD in analog IC design. Great, I
thought, a free PhD, working with a bunch of great people, in an area
that interest me, at one of the top universities in the country.

BUT:

etc snipped

Depends on to what you aspire. I have no PhD (though like you I was
offered one based on my final year project) and graduated in 73 from
Nottingham. I worked for a few companies that mainly employed engineers
with first degrees only and found it weasy to compete with them. Then I
joined a company that had a significant proportion of PhDs and I found
myself going from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a
big pond. It was a challenge - these guys were good - but I did OK and
in 87 a bunch of us left to set up our own company. At that point the
majority of the employees were PhDs. We grew that company to over 300
employees and 14 years later floated one division on the stock market. I
owned 1.5% of that $500 million company and was able to retire aged 50.

None of that would have happened without the PhD guys and my ability to
keep up with them. So my advice would be that PhDs open doors that first
degrees do not and unless you are lucky like me and fall in with a bunch
of them you prospects are less. So I would say get the PhD. I know I
wish I had.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Joerg]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

[...]

I got read the riot act because a clandestine soldering iron (mine, from
home) was found on our multiplex truck during an unannounced inspection
and unfortunately some big brass was present. A contributing factor to
the summons was a <gasp> unauthorized non-drab-green and thus
non-army-issue spool of solder. One was supposed to call the maintenance
truck and never, ever, blah, blah, blah. This was all actually not said
but hollered at me.

We were issued the tools (including soldering irons) and test
equipment, but it was against regulations to do any actual repairs.

Weird. Why would they issue solder irons then?

Transmitter died and it isn't a bad tube? Crate it up and ship it to
the depot, even if it means being off the air for months, or years. Of
course, that was against regulations, too. I read all the rules about
the station, as well as the SOP and realized that no where did it state
that we couldn't call the station a service depot, or what the policy
was to become a service depot. SO, I declared it a depot and did the
work.

I found out years later that the radio station at Ft. Greely was one
of the first GI built stations, and later one of the first permanent
AFRN radio stations. I could have claimed there was precedent for the
staff to do their own repairs.

Sometimes someone has to be brazen enough and just do it, then others
will follow. Once there's a well-trodden path it becomes "the standard".

I had to put up with a station manger with a ham license who thought
the TV transmitters were Swan SSB rigs, and a base information officer
who despised radio & TV because they gave another way to get the news.
Both were always looking for a way to cause me trouble. They soon
discovered that a happy general outranks any ticked off officer or NCO.

My luck was that the whole assignment of me leading this multiplex unit
was already violating the standard operating procedure. Because the SOP
said that this must be a staff sergeant or higher rank and I was only a
corporal. So even if we hadn't achieved such a good record, making too
big a fuss out of this situation would have automatically resulted in
some egg in the face much higher up.

WRT ham radio I have a license and so did one other guy. The shortwave
trucks always had a problem getting a link, despite huge antennas and a
5kW generator. So one day when we were next to them and the other guy
was next to their SW station, and they couldn't get it done, we fired up
out transceivers that we had brought along, clandestinely of course ...
<whistle>

Long story short we could immediately establish a connection on 80m,
voice and CW. With a piece of wire thrown into a tree while they had two
full-fledged masts. AFAICT the reason why the army issue gear didn't
work well was that it really consisted of antiques compared to ham radio
gear.

 

[David L. Jones]

Hi,


Ok, thanks for your opinion there.
But just out of curiosity (and since David Eather mentioned it, too):
Wouldn't leaving it off a resume look pretty weird? And after all, I'd
imagine the prospective employer inquire about that 3-year gap, so
"hiding" won't really work

You'd be surprised.
Right after you finished it, yeah, maybe. But in 5 or 10 years time most
won't give a toss if you took a few years off to do whatever. All they care
about is what have you done recently. But the real world does work in
mysterious ways!
You are just as likely to get rejected for a job because they didn't like
the way you said Hello or whatever.

When it comes down to it, if you are honest with people that you want to do
practical work, and you have demonstrated practical work experience, then
the PhD shouldn't in theory be an issue.

PS: Looking forward to your EEVblog live show later - good luck with
that!

No such luck, it was an epic FAIL, but at least it was damn funny I've
heard!

Dave.

 

[David L. Jones]

Hi,


That's the exact reason why I'm having a hard time just saying "no
thanks": The offer is just so juicy, and it's really an unique
opportunity.

So take it.
If you really want to get into practical design work then too much paper, or
too little paper will never be a barrier, your skills are your only barrier.

Point taken, especially with respect to the "devaluation" of
qualifications you mentioned before.
But I'm wondering: If there is an employer who is really keen that all
applicants have the right paper, surely this could work against higher
qualifications, too?

Correct. There are many employers who will only hire people who just meet
the criteria and nothing more.
And it's often not about pay. You might be a PhD that will accept whatever
pay they offer, but you might not stick around. The same is true for people
who aren't married, have no house to pay off, have no kids etc.
Many employers can be very picky about potential employee retention, and
rightly so, it costs lots of money to hire and then replace people when they
leave.

There is no black and white answer here, the real world works in (often
confusing) shades of grey.

Dave.

 

[David L. Jones]

Hi,

For getting a "regular" job you can make it not matter: on your
resume put an "objectives" section that says "getting real world
experience at a (insert your smarmy positive adjective here)
company", and when you interview just blush and say it was fully
funded and you couldn't resist.

That's actually a really good suggestion (in my eyes at least)! Like
it much better than just leaving a 3-year gap, and it's actually the
truth: It's hard to resist, and I suppose most can understand that.

There are jobs for which having a PhD is a real help. PhD's seem to
impress the hell out of non-engineers. [...]

Good insights on the social aspects there, thanks for that! That's
really the kind of angle I'm totally lacking right now as a student
with not too much experience out there.

I can second what Tim said, that PhD impresses non-engineers.
The flip side of course is that it usually does NOT impress engineers who
stereotypically look down upon PhD's as lacking practical real world skills
and focus.
i.e. "you spent 3 years writing one paper?, I need this circuit designed and
built by tomorrow with parts you can scrounge, and I want that with the
documentation!"
So if you do find yourself being interviewed by a practical degree or lesser
qualified engineer you might find it hard going with a PhD.

And as someone else said, likewise (and even more so) sterotypically PhD's
will look down upon those of lesser qualifications. So heaven forbid if you
only have a Diploma or Degree and are interviewed by a couple of PhD's.

Life shouldn't be this complicated though, you are young and free, and
you've been offered a great opportunity in tough times, take it!

Dave.

 

[Nial Stewart]

And as someone else said, likewise (and even more so) sterotypically PhD's will look down upon

those of lesser qualifications.

Bob, if you do end up going for the PhD bear in mind what Dave's said here and
don't fall into the trap.

Two of the best engineers I've come across in 15 years didn't go through university.


Nial.

 

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if the experienced engineers in the "real world" could
help me out a little with this:

I'm about to finish my BEng in Electronic Engineering (UK degree), and
last week an academic from my university offered me a fully funded
(tuition fees + living expenses) PhD in analog IC design. Great, I
thought, a free PhD, working with a bunch of great people, in an area
that interest me, at one of the top universities in the country.

BUT:
I am not really aiming for a career in academia, or full-on research,
for that matter. In fact, I have always been more of a hands-on guy,
doing electronics as a hobby for quite a while now. For after uni, I was
hoping to land a job as an electronics design engineer (hence posting
here), because I think I might enjoy actually making stuff that sees use
in the real world.

Now, I have doubts if a PhD will do me any good for that kind of career
goal. First, I'm not sure whether employers for "normal" electronics R&D
jobs even want PhDs - I'm assuming a bachelor's or master's degree with
work experience would be more appreciated. Then, there is also this
smell of a highly specialized theoretician that a PhD carries (hence why
I haven't considered doing one so far). Although I'm wondering if my
electronics hobby could show that I am actually someone who knows about
"real world" electronics. Though I might just have illusions about how
electronic engineering actually is "out there"...

An alternative would be to spend another year on a taught MSc
(coursework on MSc level, but no strong research component), to just get
a more specialized education, without the ivory tower appeal of a PhD.

I also have this job with a 2-man shop lined up where I could work for
one year pretty much doing electronics design on my own, just to get a
nice portfolio to show off when applying for a "real" company afterwards.

It's probably just worth mentioning that I don't really intend to settle
down in the UK, so it would be interesting how this issue is viewed
somewhere else.

So, my questions to the seasoned engineers:
PhD for electronics: even bother?
If yes, to what extent does doing practical work on the side help?
Or would you rather recommend just getting a "quick" MSc?
Or not bother with further education at all, and just dive straight into
the real word?
Any other suggestions?

I am looking forward to your comments!

Cheers,

Robert

a) Get your PhD - the alternative in the UK right now is probably
unemployment
b) Then get out of the UK. There are only two places in the West where a
good variety of design is still being done, and which pays. Germany and USA
c) Get out of the UK while you can.
d) Get out of the UK while you can.
e) If all else fails become a banker - they have the money.

 

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

Depends on to what you aspire. I have no PhD (though like you I was
offered one based on my final year project) and graduated in 73 from
Nottingham. I worked for a few companies that mainly employed engineers

University? I started there 1971, physics.
Lincoln hall

 

[Bob]

Hi,

a) Get your PhD - the alternative in the UK right now is probably
unemployment
b) Then get out of the UK. There are only two places in the West where a
good variety of design is still being done, and which pays. Germany and USA
c) Get out of the UK while you can.
d) Get out of the UK while you can.
e) If all else fails become a banker - they have the money.

Haha! Yes, advices b-d seem quite sensible!

Cheers,

Robert

 

[Bob]

Hi,

Bob, if you do end up going for the PhD bear in mind what Dave's said here and
don't fall into the trap.

Two of the best engineers I've come across in 15 years didn't go through university.

Yep. That's why I really appreciate *all* of the comments I've gotten
here. Just talking to the academics at uni doesn't really give a good
picture, especially if that's not where I ultimately want to end up.

Thanks to everyone! You really helped a big deal!

Cheers,

Robert