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what exactly is Voltage

kap

Jul 15, 2013
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thank you Steve and Fat

ok, for an instance,
I have two 1inch x 1inc x 1inch iron cube's.
some how I pushed many free electrons into one of the cube.
and some how I sucked many electrons from the other cube.
Now if I take the volt meter measurment,will it show up any Voltage reading ?
and if i increase or decrease the number of charges and read out with voltmeter again it will vary ?
 
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(*steve*)

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Now if I take the volt meter measurment,will it show up any Voltage reading ?

Yes.

But a practical voltmeter will leak electrons back from one side to the other while it is measuring the voltage.

The actual voltage will depend on factors other than the number of electrons though.
 

kap

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No, voltage is a property of the potential energy of the electrons (actually a difference in potential energy).

if the voltage is a potential energy or maybe a unit of potential energy and not e.m.f. and not controlled by number of charges then what is/are the factors/s maybe responsible for voltage ?
 
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kap

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Is that a question of Electrostatics?
 

fatman57

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Current is the rate at which charge is moving. That is essentially the NUMBER of electrons as opposed to their actual speed. And it doesn't have to be electrons, but it usually is.

Is the 'charge moving' actual electrons (or ions) moving?
 

(*steve*)

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Is the 'charge moving' actual electrons (or ions) moving?

The charge is moving. Whilst the electrons "drift", they do so at a pace which makes a snail look like a speeding bullet.

It's like Newton's cradle. Notice how the energy is passed from one end to the other with no (or very little) observed movement of the balls. Essentially if an electron is "pushed" in at one end of a wire, another one is pushed off the other end.

You could think of a wire like a tube completely filled with billiard balls. Pushing a ball in one end results in another popping out the other end. Now consider that a wire is not a single string of atoms (assume each atom has a single electron which can "flow").

A numerical example is here. That example works out to be about .28mm/s with a reasonable current in a wire.
 

kap

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Yes.

But a practical voltmeter will leak electrons back from one side to the other while it is measuring the voltage.

The actual voltage will depend on factors other than the number of electrons though.


Thank you Steve,

I aggree that the practical voltmeter will leak, but voltage will depend on which factors ?
 

(*steve*)

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Essentially, for a given amount of charge, the voltage will be affected by the capacitance.

If the capacitance is high, the voltage per unit of charge is lower. For smaller capacitances it is higher.

This works out intuitively. If the charges are trying to pull the two plates together (they do so because opposite charges attract), then separating them requires work. This increases the potential energy of the charge, and thus the differential voltage. Plates further apart also results in a lower capacitance.

Other factors include the size of the plates and the dielectric constant of the material between them.
 

fatman57

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The charge is moving. Whilst the electrons "drift", they do so at a pace which makes a snail look like a speeding bullet.

It's like Newton's cradle. Notice how the energy is passed from one end to the other with no (or very little) observed movement of the balls. Essentially if an electron is "pushed" in at one end of a wire, another one is pushed off the other end.

You could think of a wire like a tube completely filled with billiard balls. Pushing a ball in one end results in another popping out the other end. Now consider that a wire is not a single string of atoms (assume each atom has a single electron which can "flow").

A numerical example is here. That example works out to be about .28mm/s with a reasonable current in a wire.

Thanks Steve!
 

Laplace

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The question "What is voltage?" seems more appropriate for a physics forum than it is for electronics. So I dug out my old physics textbook (Sears & Zemansky, 1947) and found the relevant answer. But first one must understand the concepts of electric potential and electromotive force.

The electrical potential energy of a test charge at a point in any electric field is the work required to bring the test charge from infinity to the point. It must be assumed that the original charge distribution which creates the electric field is not altered by the introduction of the test charge. (This will be true if the test charge is sufficiently small.) The 'potential' at a point in an electric field is defined as the ratio of the potential energy of a test charge to the magnitude of the charge, or as the potential energy per unit charge. A potential of one joule per coulomb is called one volt.

The difference between the potential at two points in an electrostatic field is called the potential difference between the points. The concept of potential difference is an extremely important one, both in electrostatics and in electric circuits. Electrical engineers commonly refer to it as "voltage".

In order to have a current in a conductor, an electric field must be maintained in the conductor; furthermore, continuous energy input is necessary to maintain the current, the energy being converted to heat in the conductor. The development of heat in a conductor is an irreversible process in the thermodynamic sense. That is, while energy is conserved in the process, the heat developed can not be reconverted to electrical energy except under the restrictions imposed by the second law of thermodynamics.

There is another type of energy transformation which is reversible in the thermodynamic sense. Devices in which reversible transformations occur are the storage battery, the generator, and the motor. As contrasted with the irreversible conversion of electrical energy into heat, the conversion of electrical energy into electro-chemical or electro-mechanical energy is reversible in the sense that this energy can be completely recovered and converted back to electrical form. The fact that recovery is not 100% in actual devices under the conditions in which they are used does not vitiate the possibility of complete recovery under the proper conditions. There is no theoretical lower bound to friction or electrical resistance in the laws of thermodynamics.

Any device in which a reversible transformation between electrical energy and some other form of energy can take place, is called a 'seat of electromotive force'. Electromotive force (emf) may be defined as work per unit charge, the same as the measure for electrical potential. It should be noted, however, that although emf and potential are expressible in the same unit (volt), they relate to different concepts. Also, the use of the word "force" in connection with this concept is unfortunate, since an emf is not a force but work per unit charge. At one time it was suggested that electromotance would be a better term.

So the simple answer to the question, "What is voltage?", is that voltage is a potential difference or emf that is measured in volts.
 

(*steve*)

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So the simple answer to the question, "What is voltage?", is that voltage is a potential difference or emf that is measured in volts.

So voltage is that which we measure in volts! ;)
 

kap

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YES,I REALIZE TOO THAT IT IS A QUESTION OF PHYSICS & ELECTROSTATICS MORE THEN ELECTRONICS,
and I am digging in to it,
 

fatman57

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I have been continuing this discussion on a physics forum, they directed me to this page:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_2/4.html

I think it helped, even though it does not discuss in terms of a particle exactly what voltage is (which I have been told would be difficult) it does show some materials mechanics which could help illustrate.
 

kap

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Thank you 'Fat' & 'Steve',
I have been googling Electrostatics and studying it but I think I need one of the great book on Electrostatics and found few at
amazaon.com


following are the books, Other then these any recommendations ?


* Fundamentals of Applied Electrostatics
Joseph M. Crowley (Author)


* Nonequilibrium Effects in Ion and Electron Transport: (The Language of Science)
Jean W. Gallagher (Author)

* Electricity and Magnetism by
Edward M. Purcell and David J. Morin

* Electrostatics 2003 (Institute of Physics Conference Series)
 
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BobK

Jan 5, 2010
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So voltage is that which we measure in volts! ;)
Or, more illuminating, what we measure in Joules / Coulomb. I.e. the voltage between point A and point B is the energy needed to move 1 C of charge between the two points, which is what I said in post #4.

Bob
 

kap

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I think it is clear from these descriptions that the voltage is proportional to number of charges in a stationery charge object when no current (no charge flowing).


Now one another relative question is, when voltmeter reading is taken, how the voltmeters measurement lead's tip point realises the total voltage so the voltmeter gives the voltage reading. ?

In other words how tip of a voltmeter leads tip point experiences the collective force of each charge even many charges are far from the measuring lead tip point ?

I hope this question makes sense to you.
any thoughts or ideas about this ?
 
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BobK

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I think it is clear from these descriptions that the voltage is proportional to number of charges in a stationery charge object when no current (no charge flowing).
Nope. For the second time, you are thinking only in terms of a capacitor, and even then, charge is just one of the parameters that determine the voltage. In a battery, the voltage is due to the difference in potential energy of two different chemical states. A voltage can also be created by a changing magnetic field. And I already mentioned that a voltage develops across a resistor when current is flowing through it. There is the same amount of charge going in and out of the resistor, but there is still a voltage difference. This difference is due to the energy lost while charge flows through a resistor. You are limiting your understanding by thinking of voltage in terms of charge. You have to think in terms of energy per charge.
Now one another relative question is, when voltmeter reading is taken, how the voltmeters measurement lead's tip point realises the total voltage so the voltmeter gives the voltage reading. ?

In other words how tip of a voltmeter leads tip point experiences the collective force of each charge even many charges are far from the measuring lead tip point ?

I hope this question makes sense to you.
any thoughts or ideas about this ?
The voltmeter places a resistor across the voltage and a current flows through that resistor, the amount of current tells it what voltage to show.

Bob
 

kap

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charge is just one of the parameters that determine the voltage. In a battery, the voltage is due to the difference in potential energy of two different chemical states. A voltage can also be created by a changing magnetic field. And I already mentioned that a voltage develops across a resistor when current is flowing through it. There is the same amount of charge going in and out of the resistor, but there is still a voltage difference. This difference is due to the energy lost while charge flows through a resistor. You are limiting your understanding by thinking of voltage in terms of charge. You have to think in terms of energy per charge.

The voltmeter places a resistor across the voltage and a current flows through that resistor, the amount of current tells it what voltage to show.

Bob

may be you are right, but I think no mater what magnetic induction or chamical reaction the end result is separation of electrons from atoms, which in effect produces - or + charge which in effect produces potential difference which is voltage.


in case of resister, when it comes between a conductive wire, it hinders the flow of electrons through a special arrangement of atoms & molecules, but it passes the electrons and the amount of electrons passing through it is inversely proportional to the resistance of a resistor, For example there is a DC source and two wires connected to that DC source (open circuit) and no resistor in between the wires, in this situation volt meter gives V voltmeter = Vsupply, the moment resistor is introduced in between the wire and circuit is closed there is a current flowing in the circuit because resistor is also a conductor but bad conductor compared to good conductors, and the voltage is dropped from total to resistance proportional, so I think even here also it is dependent on the number of charges,
 
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