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Herd instincts?

K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:


That sounds strange. Almost any adequate electrical engineer can get
a 100K+ per year job now days, i know many that have them. I doubt
that even a grocery store (location) manager in a grocery chain makes
that much, i could be wrong though.
$100K is around the +1sigma point, I believe. I've had recruiters
tell me that their client *really* needed people and was wiling to
pay. They started back-peddling when I told them what I was making.
Suddenly other things became more important. Outside silly valley, I
believe $100K is good money. ...and yes, the general manager of a
large chain grocery store can easily get to $100K.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Try it sometime. I might have done better if I'd spent serious money
on advertising my services, but I really couldn't see where I could
get the message to the sort of people who might have used me as a
consultant, and I could see that I could waste a lot of money if I
failed to hit the right audience.

IOW, even you don't believe you're worth hiring.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Employment Compensation is not a tax funded program, dipshit.

"Employment Compensation"? You _are_ an idiot. Unemploymnet
insurance, if that's what you're *trying* to yammer on about, most
certainly is *IS* tax funded. The employer's contributions don't
come close to paying the bill.
Employment Compensation income gets taxed as normal income as well.

Dimbulb, you do realize that Sloman isn't an American <shudders at
the thought> and we're not talking about the US? ...or taxes, for
that matter.
 
T

Tom Del Rosso

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think that it is more likely that the Europeans and Canadians come
to US because they can buy medical procedures there that look like
dangerously premature interventions to medicos outside the U.S.

My medically qualified younger brother tells me that U.S. doctors
spend a lot more money on tests than their foreign counterparts, and
are much more likely to intervene (at vast expense).

We approve drugs years after other nations. We're far too cautious. It
makes no sense to be more cautious with drugs and less cautious with
surgery.

We do more tests (again, degree of caution can't be the reason) and surgery
because we give better care than any public program could.
 
T

Tom Del Rosso

Jan 1, 1970
0
ChairmanOfTheBored said:
But YOUR genes are NOT going to be found in your nieces' and
nephews' kids, dumbfuck!

Of course they are. It's just a smaller fraction. Since the fraction
always diminishes each generation, nephews are just one generation ahead of
sons in that respect.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] hath wroth:
I think that it is more likely that the Europeans and Canadians come
to US because they can buy medical procedures there that look like
dangerously premature interventions to medicos outside the U.S.

I beg to differ. My friends in Canada tell me that it takes forever
to obtain even an evaluation appointment, much less surgery, in
Canada. I can supply a few horror stories if you're interested. It's
the long wait that inspires the pilgrimage.
My medically qualified younger brother tells me that U.S. doctors
spend a lot more money on tests than their foreign counterparts, and
are much more likely to intervene (at vast expense).

Yep. I just went through that myself. I had my prostate and a large
piece of my bank account surgically removed at a local hospital.
Patients that have insurance, Medicare, medical, medicruz, or other
reluctant payers, tend to over test. Similar surgeries required a
wide spectrum of pre-operative testing, most of which were to assure
the financial provider that the surgery is really necessary and that
some alternative treatment isn't possible. It also satiates the legal
departments appetite for cover-thy-posterior test to avoid subsequent
litigation for malpractice or damage mitigation.

The usual result is that surgery and other expensive procedures are
delayed until the absolute last moment. All manner of alternative
remedies are attempted in the hope that the condition will fix itself
or the patient will die prematurely, thus avoiding patient
compensation. Only after all the cheaper alternatives have been
explored, is surgery authorized.

In my situation, I paid cash, mostly in advance. Strangely, after the
price was renegotiated multiple times, it was almost as cheap to pay
for local surgery, than to make the pilgrimage to India or Mexico.
Take out the insurance companies and government assistance, and what's
left is fairly affordable medicine. Anyway, instead of a multitude of
pre-operative tests, I had exactly 2 invasive tests (other than the
usual blood test and chest x-ray). Most of the others were apparently
un-necessary to properly perform the surgery.
Anxious patients often want their doctors to "do something" when the
Cochrane collaboration would advise a wait-and-see approach
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004326.html

Maybe. I have a dim view of sites that have a financial agenda
(selling some potion or procedure). Chochrane is not one of those.
They have no obvious agenda, but are lacking in the numerical detail
to substantiate their conclusions. They also tend to be rather
simplistic. Methinks it is much better to dig through the complex and
confusing medical research reports reference on Medline or various
online medical journals, than to rely on what I consider to be a
simplistic conclusion. For those that want fast answers, sites such
as Cochrane are good enough.

I agree on the wait-n-see approach. Many conditions magically fix
themselves without any intervention or treatment. I know of one
person with an obvious case of prostate cancer that juggled his diet a
little, but basically did nothing. The cancer was gone in about 6
months and hasn't come back in the last 2 years. I decided to try
several alternative treatments, each with their fan clubs and
promoters. Nothing worked. When it was obvious that I was headed for
surgery (or radiation), it took about 3 months to schedule the surgery
(which was rescheduled 3 times). Judging by the pathology report,
another month or two, and the cancer would have spread. Wait-n-see
has it's benefits, but don't drag it right to the bitter edge.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
False, actually.

---
True, actually.

The point is, unless you messed around, sexually, with your
brothers' wives, your wife isn't barren and, if you don't shoot
blanks, one or more of your abominations came to fruition, your
peculiar line will end when you die.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
This may be true in your dialect of English. It's fine in mine. Is
English your first language?

---
Yes, of course.

American English.
---
Antonella Sorace - a professor of
linguistics at Edinburgh

http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~antonell/

has found that bilinguals asked to judge if given sentences are
grammatical, reject more sentences in their second language than do
native speakers of that second language.
---
Makes sense. While Australian English isn't what I'd call my second
language, it's different enough from American English that its
native speakers are unaware of the errors they make.
---
It has been suggested that Texan English should qualify as a separate
language, but it is usually held that the fact that Texans don't
correctly understand standard English has more to do with the defects
of their culture than the defects of their dialect.

---
Geez, then, I guess what I write is unintelligible?

It has been suggested...?
It is usually held...?

Nice try, but no seegar.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think that it is more likely that the Europeans and Canadians come
to US because they can buy medical procedures there that look like
dangerously premature interventions to medicos outside the U.S.

---
And what's wrong with that?

Advances in medicine (or anything else) don't come about because
people are afraid to take risks, and whose business is it what
people do with their own bodies?
---
My medically qualified younger brother tells me that U.S. doctors
spend a lot more money on tests than their foreign counterparts, and
are much more likely to intervene (at vast expense).

---
Often, the only way to determine what procedure needs to be done is
through testing. Have you never fixed a broken machine by using
test equipment to determine what the problem is? Also, since we're
the most litigious society on the planet, extensive testing is done
prior to intervention for the purpose of CYA for the physician.
---
Anxious patients often want their doctors to "do something" when the
Cochrane collaboration would advise a wait-and-see approach

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004326.html

---
???

"Using ear drops to remove impacted ear wax is better than no
treatment..."

states exactly the opposite.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
krw said:
Can you imagine how bad it would be if they/he were/was adequate?


Impossible! He would have to be adequate, first. If he was
adequate, he wouldn't need the stinking puppets.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is English your first language?

---
Yes, of course. Yours is Australian, no?
---

Of course, but I do rather more than than that. In fact I could buy
off the obligation to apply for at least one job a week by taking on
some kind of volunteer work, but I've got no contacts with anybody
involved in that kind of stuff, and I really would like to find myself
another job.

---
Then you've got to look harder.
---
I've certainly done it when I can get through to somebody who knows
something about the work involved. Personnel departments just tell you
that you didn't fit their profile or that your CV didn't include
enough coupling points (whatever they are) which is something of a
waste of time. The guy at the Dutch Space Research Institute told me
that because I'd published papers about my work I wasn't the kind of
hands-on engineer he was looking for - which meant that he hadn't read
the paper I'd sent him.

---
Well, Bill, so far it sounds to me like you're certainly not someone
who won't take 'no' for an answer.
---
It didn't get me out of the house at all, and I certainly didn't get
paid for it.

---
I'm confused.

You said that they didn't publish a phone number so I assumed you
had to physically go there to talk to them, (which was the waste of
time you mentioned) and you got paid for it by virtue of that
applying for jobs is what the state's giving you money to do. I.e.,
it's your job.
---
They are, and they still won't give me an interview.

---
Persist. The squeaking wheel gets the grease.
---
This is one delusion that we happen to share.

---
Then you believe that, in reality, you're qualified for _nothing_?

That's kind of unhealthy thinking, methinks.
---
Tektronix 465. Though I guess these days I'd have to buy something
that I could link to my computer.

When I was working in Venlo we had a Picoscope ADC42, which was nice
but slow - 12-bits at up to 7kHz.

And I've bought stuff on E-bay from time to time.


Yes. And it didn't take you anywhere worth visiting.
Illusions don't last.

---
How long have you believed that?
---
But, I think you're trying to change the subject since that's not
what we were talking about, which was that if someone in touch with
reality wants to successfully warp someone else's perception of
reality then he must, at least, be capable of manipulating reality.
That, of course, implies a knowledge of reality adequate to allow
its perception to be warped.
---
Now apply this brilliant insight to religion, which is pure delusion.
Religious leaders do warp many peoples' perceptions of reality without
having the capacity to manipulate anything that any objective observer
could describe as real, except in the trivial sense of creating real
delusions in real people's heads.

---
They manipulate symbols, which are certainly real enough in some
people's minds that their realities become the movie the leader
wants them to see.
---[/QUOTE]

Rather like Dubbya linking 9/11 to the invasion of Irak. That illusion
didn't last, any more than the illusory weapons of mass destruction.[/QUOTE]

---
Now, now, Bill... You know very well there were WMD there which were
removed before we got there.
---
Your ignorance is noted. In fact eight nieces and nephews pass on
exactly as much genetic material as four biological kids.

---
But not with genetic material that came from you and your wife, and
with no offspring your line will end when you die.
---
Check outthe literature on the evolution of altruism.
---
OK
---

And it doesn't take a superman to know more than
you or Jim.

See above.
---
That's not the answer to the question I asked, which was:

"How would you, of all people, know?"

For example, you certainly don't know as much about chip design as
Jim does and, by your own admission, you certainly know less about
designing with 555's than I do, so your seemingly all-encompassing
inference that you know more than we do is flawed.
---

Well, I obviously know more about biology than you do, and this is a
rather larger subject than the care and feeding of the 555.

---
Again, with the paucity of 555 experience you admit to possessing,
how would you know?
---
You aren't up to doing what I do, so that's not an option.

---
That's right. I work.
---
Or the 555. If your taste in cars matched your taste in integrated
circuits and your taste in political systems, you'd get around in a
horse and cart.

---
Sometimes a horse and cart is just right, and sometimes my taste
goes to a microcontroller, a meal I don't think you've had yet, eh?
---
You may have 20-20 hearing, but your problem comes when you have to
process what you hear and read.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Reading stuff you don't understand can be kind of boring - at least
until you do get to understand it. Since you don't seem to understand
much, you could well find my posts boring.

---
It's not that I don't understand your posts, it's just that you're
so predictably repeatable that there seems to be little need to read
you other than to stir you up every once in a while.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
What sort of cloud-cuckoo land do you live in?

Principals of big companies don't have a clue about the sort of
detailed engineering that I work on

---
That you _work_ on???

LOL, not lately, and every day you let slip by puts you farther in
the past technologically. Pretty soon you'll be so retro all you'll
be fit for is 555 design work!
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've always fretted over the artificiality of the monetary markets...
drawing my own conclusions from the basis economies.

We're booming... Europeons think they are riding high. I think it's a
Hitleresque ride-up before the big crash. Wonder if the Europeons
will try to blame the Jews again ?:)
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Employment Compensation"? You _are_ an idiot.

No. You are. That is what it is called, dumbfuck.
Unemploymnet
insurance, if that's what you're *trying* to yammer on about, most
certainly is *IS* tax funded. The employer's contributions don't
come close to paying the bill.

You're an idiot.
Dimbulb, you do realize that Sloman isn't an American <shudders at
the thought> and we're not talking about the US? ...or taxes, for
that matter.

Read the remark that I responded to, you retarded ****. They were most
certainly talking about taxes at that point, so **** off, and YOU were
not even part of it, so using the term "we" is as retarded as anything
else you post on your weekly **** over of the groups.
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] hath wroth:



I beg to differ. My friends in Canada tell me that it takes forever
to obtain even an evaluation appointment, much less surgery, in
Canada. I can supply a few horror stories if you're interested. It's
the long wait that inspires the pilgrimage.


Yep. I just went through that myself. I had my prostate and a large
piece of my bank account surgically removed at a local hospital.
Patients that have insurance, Medicare, medical, medicruz, or other
reluctant payers, tend to over test. Similar surgeries required a
wide spectrum of pre-operative testing, most of which were to assure
the financial provider that the surgery is really necessary and that
some alternative treatment isn't possible.

I note in your post, a lot of skeptical comments about US doctors, but I
want to comment only on this paragraph I split.

Tests are required to satisfy the doctor that surgery is required, not, as
you put it, to "assure the financial provider...." Elevated PSA can result
from causes that *may* go away. For a more complete view of a prostate
condition, a more complex blood test may be requested, bringing the total
test so far to two. In my recent case, the latter test guided the doctor to
decide the elevated PSA was *very possibly* a result of recent chemotherapy,
and we should adopt a wait-and-see posture for 6 weeks, which we did. An
invasive biopsy was not justified. All of this was to benefit ME, not an
insurance company.

The next complex PSA blood-work showed a remarkable improvement and I'm now
back to getting a simple PSA test included in my annual general exam, which
is recommended for men over about 50. Had there been no improvement, or if
the PSA level had got higher, other tests would have been called for.

I hope you can see that there are good reasons for a doctor (in this case
the Urologist) to call for reasonably required tests, and then to wait and
see or to advance other tests in preparation to a potential biopsy and/or
prostate surgery. Insurance companies DO NOT get to say whether such
required tests or surgery are done.

In fact, some surgeons use expensive, minimally invasive robotics in the
surgery even though this more expensive process is not covered by insurance.
It greatly benefits the patient's speed of recovery, while reducing the
doctors earnings.

And finally, to complete this blog; in my opinion, a doctor who has
diagnostic tools available, but does not use them when they are called for,
is dangerous to your well being. But if you want fast, reduced cost
doctoring, you may find a surgeon who will remove your prostate without
discovery of to what extent it may be needed, and with little delay.
Hopefully though, not in the U.S.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] hath wroth:



I beg to differ. My friends in Canada tell me that it takes forever
to obtain even an evaluation appointment, much less surgery, in
Canada. I can supply a few horror stories if you're interested. It's
the long wait that inspires the pilgrimage.

In your actual experience, what's the typical time duration between
referral by a family doctor to a specialist and surgery? (including
wait for an appointment, tests, pre-surgery assessment(s), further
tests, and scheduling of actual surgery? Assuming worst case
("elective" surgery, which presumably might get bumped for people with
life-threatening conditions).

Yep. I just went through that myself. I had my prostate and a large
piece of my bank account surgically removed at a local hospital.
Patients that have insurance, Medicare, medical, medicruz, or other
reluctant payers, tend to over test. Similar surgeries required a
wide spectrum of pre-operative testing, most of which were to assure
the financial provider that the surgery is really necessary and that
some alternative treatment isn't possible. It also satiates the legal
departments appetite for cover-thy-posterior test to avoid subsequent
litigation for malpractice or damage mitigation.

The usual result is that surgery and other expensive procedures are
delayed until the absolute last moment. All manner of alternative
remedies are attempted in the hope that the condition will fix itself
or the patient will die prematurely, thus avoiding patient
compensation. Only after all the cheaper alternatives have been
explored, is surgery authorized.

In my situation, I paid cash, mostly in advance. Strangely, after the
price was renegotiated multiple times, it was almost as cheap to pay
for local surgery, than to make the pilgrimage to India or Mexico.
Take out the insurance companies and government assistance, and what's
left is fairly affordable medicine. Anyway, instead of a multitude of
pre-operative tests, I had exactly 2 invasive tests (other than the
usual blood test and chest x-ray). Most of the others were apparently
un-necessary to properly perform the surgery.


Maybe. I have a dim view of sites that have a financial agenda
(selling some potion or procedure). Chochrane is not one of those.
They have no obvious agenda, but are lacking in the numerical detail
to substantiate their conclusions. They also tend to be rather
simplistic. Methinks it is much better to dig through the complex and
confusing medical research reports reference on Medline or various
online medical journals, than to rely on what I consider to be a
simplistic conclusion. For those that want fast answers, sites such
as Cochrane are good enough.

I agree on the wait-n-see approach. Many conditions magically fix
themselves without any intervention or treatment. I know of one
person with an obvious case of prostate cancer that juggled his diet a
little, but basically did nothing. The cancer was gone in about 6
months and hasn't come back in the last 2 years. I decided to try
several alternative treatments, each with their fan clubs and
promoters. Nothing worked. When it was obvious that I was headed for
surgery (or radiation), it took about 3 months to schedule the surgery
(which was rescheduled 3 times). Judging by the pathology report,
another month or two, and the cancer would have spread. Wait-n-see
has it's benefits, but don't drag it right to the bitter edge.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
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