Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Winding coils

P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi all,

I need to wind 180nH inductor for a parallel tuned circuit I'm
building, since the 180nH factory-made chokes I have don't look up to
the job power-handling wise. This coil needs to handle about 90mA p-p/
500mW maximum dissipation sine current and I've allowed 3 ohms for
series resistance.
Can anyone give me some steer on dimensions, number of turns, core
type and so on? Thanks,

p.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
Hi all,

I need to wind 180nH inductor for a parallel tuned circuit I'm
building, since the 180nH factory-made chokes I have don't look up to
the job power-handling wise. This coil needs to handle about 90mA p-p/
500mW maximum dissipation sine current and I've allowed 3 ohms for
series resistance.
Can anyone give me some steer on dimensions, number of turns, core
type and so on? Thanks,

Here are the basic formulas for air core coils. 3 ohms sounds pretty
high for such a small inductance.
 
R

Reg Edwards

Jan 1, 1970
0
For a very complete analysis of performance, including power handling
capacity, of solenoid coils of all proportions, dimensions and number of
turns, download in a few seconds and run immediately program SOLNOID3 from
website below.
----
............................................................
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
............................................................
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Burridge wrote...
I need to wind 180nH inductor for a parallel tuned circuit I'm
building, since the 180nH factory-made chokes I have don't look
up to the job power-handling wise. This coil needs to handle about
90mA p-p / >500mW maximum dissipation sine current and I've allowed
3 ohms for series resistance. Can anyone give me some steer on
dimensions, number of turns, core type and so on? Thanks,

As John has said, that's a very low inductance that should not
present any problems at such a low power level. But perhaps for
a more detailed answer you can tell us the frequencies your coil
will experience. At high frequencies skin and proximity effects
dominate, and these can be evaluated with an Rac/Rdc ratio. If
a ferrite is used its high-frequency core loss can also be modeled
as an inductor resistance.

Do you have any special size constraints? Unless you really need
a miniature size, an air core may be best for 180nH. You can use
the Wheeler equation to experiment with different coil designs.

I'll add some new grist for the mill, with a copy of a portion of
a posting I made 28 Dec 1997, about air-coil inductance equations.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Throughout the discussion we'll use the same dimensional system, based
on the drawing below. Here and in the 14 formulas below, N = turns,
a = mean radius, b = length, and c = winding thickness, and all are
in inches, unless otherwise stated.

length
|------ b --------|
--- ,-----------------,
c | cross section | ------------ a = winding mean radius
--- '-----------------' a |
__________________________ |
axis D = 2a
,-----------------, |
| cross section | --------
'------------\----'
\ solenoid coil layout
N turns
--------
[ snip five formulas and discussion ]

To simplify our lives, Wheeler empirically derived his popular
single-layer solenoid equation, using Nagaoka's equation and
tables. Wheeler's equation is shown below in two different ways.

a N^2 a^2 N^2 / 10 b
(6) L = ---------- = -------------- uH / inch
9 + 10 b/a 1 + 0.9 a/b

Wheeler says this equation is accurate to about 1% for long coils, or
any coils with (b/a > 0.8). [Confirmed with extensive measurements I
made and posted on s.e.d.] It's easy to solve this equation for N.

A simple re-arrangement adds the concept of winding pitch. This can be
very useful, in part because a low-winding-height multilayer coil can
be treated as a single-layer coil with a higher winding pitch.

a^2 p N 1
(7) L = -------- * ---------------- uH / inch
10 1 + 0.9 a p / N

Here p is my turn-density pitch parameter, in turns/inch. Incidentally,
this makes clear that for long coils, once you pick a coil-winding pitch,
the inductance scales by N, rather than by N^2. Of course, the length
scales as well. Now solving for N isn't as easy. I get,

10 b
(8) N =~ ----- ( 1 + 9 a^3 p^2 / 100 L ) turns
p a^2

Alan Fowler pointed out a version of Wheeler's equation, claimed more
accurate, in F. Langford-Smith's "The Radiotron Designer's Handbook,"
1942. In the 3rd edition only, the work of Esnault-Pelterie is detailed,
a Frenchman who followed the "des savants japonais" (i.e. Nagaoaka) for
his derivation of a simple Wheeler-like formula with a claimed accuracy
of 0.1% for values of diameter/length between 0.2 and 1.5. Rearranging,

a^2 N^2 / 9.972 b
(9) L = -------------------- uH / inch
0.9949 + 0.9144 (a/b)

[ snip more formulas and stuff ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, there you have a small panaply of equation forms to select from.

(7) is easier to use than it appears at first glance. Let's design
a coil for you. We'll pick wire size #22, which has a diameter of
0.020 inches, prompting us to pick a winding-spacing of 0.04 inches,
or a 25 turns/in pitch. Inspired by a small art brush in my pencil
cup, we'll pick a coil diameter of 0.2", so equation (7) reduces to

.. 0.01 25 N 1
.. L = --------- * ------------------ uH / inch
.. 10 1 + 0.9 0.1 25 / N
..
.. 1
.. = 0.025" N * ------------ uH / in
.. 1 + 2.25/N

This formula is more simple than it appears, because the second term
approaches unity for coils of more than 10 - 20 turns.

The first term says a 180nH coil requires about 180/25 = 7 turns, so
we'll try N = 9, and get L = 225nH * 0.8 = 180nH, right on the money.

That's a 9-turn coil 0.2" in diameter and 0.36" long. It uses less
than six inches of wire, has a DC resistance of about 0.008 ohms,
and can handle very high DC currents.

Plugging our coil into equation (6) as a test, we have a = 0.1" and
b = 0.36" and N = 9, so we get L = 8.1 / (9 + 36) = 0.180 uH, bingo.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
As John has said, that's a very low inductance that should not
present any problems at such a low power level. But perhaps for
a more detailed answer you can tell us the frequencies your coil
will experience. At high frequencies skin and proximity effects
dominate, and these can be evaluated with an Rac/Rdc ratio. If
a ferrite is used its high-frequency core loss can also be modeled
as an inductor resistance.

Thanks, Win! You're a diamond. John's formulae didn't appear on his
post for some reason, but you've given me the info I need to start
winding and be slap in the ball park right away. Great.
BTW, the factory inductors I have already are only about the size of
the newest half-watt resistors, so I was reluctant to chance it. I
know things keep getting smaller and somehow seem to defy the laws of
physics, but just call me old fashioned. :)
Thanks again.

P.
 
I

Ian Buckner

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Burridge said:
Thanks, Win! You're a diamond. John's formulae didn't appear on his
post for some reason, but you've given me the info I need to start
winding and be slap in the ball park right away. Great.
BTW, the factory inductors I have already are only about the size of
the newest half-watt resistors, so I was reluctant to chance it. I
know things keep getting smaller and somehow seem to defy the laws of
physics, but just call me old fashioned. :)
Thanks again.

P.
Paul, I really don't think you need to wind your own. For example,
a Coilcraft 1008CS 180nH part is rated at 620mA rms:

http://www.coi1craft.com/1008cs.cfm

The "trick" is that the dissipation is a function of the series
resistance, which is very low (0.77 ohms) as long as the core
doesn't saturate.

If you want to get really silly, their "Spring" inductors are rated
at 3A rms.

Regards
Ian
 
B

Bill Turner

Jan 1, 1970
0
Can anyone give me some steer on dimensions, number of turns, core
type and so on? Thanks,

_________________________________________________________

Whatever formula you use for determining the above will get you close,
but to really know the inductance of your coil, the best method is to
resonate it with a known value capacitor and find the resonant frequency
with a grid dip oscillator (GDO). Choose a capacitor value that
resonates the coil close to the proposed operating frequency.

As you may know, the inductance of a coil is not a fixed value, but
varies dramatically with frequency. Other components such as capacitors
and resistors have much less (though not zero) variation with frequency,
which, for ham radio purposes, can usually be ignored until you get into
the microwave region.

Coils have so many variables within them (wire diameter, insulation,
turn spacing, interwinding capacitance, etc.) that a formula can only be
an approximation. Using the GDO method will provide a "real world"
measurement which will be very accurate if done carefully.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul, I really don't think you need to wind your own. For example,
a Coilcraft 1008CS 180nH part is rated at 620mA rms:

http://www.coi1craft.com/1008cs.cfm

The "trick" is that the dissipation is a function of the series
resistance, which is very low (0.77 ohms) as long as the core
doesn't saturate.

If you want to get really silly, their "Spring" inductors are rated
at 3A rms.

Thanks, Ian, but it only took about 15 seconds to wind the coil
according to Win's spec and more importantly, winding my own enables
me to take a tap off it, which I believe may be necessary in this app.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
As you may know, the inductance of a coil is not a fixed value, but
varies dramatically with frequency.

Er, you mean *reactance* of a coil varies dramatically with frequency,
don't you?
 
B

Bill Turner

Jan 1, 1970
0
Er, you mean *reactance* of a coil varies dramatically with frequency,
don't you?

_________________________________________________________

Er, no I don't. They both vary with frequency.

If the inductance did NOT vary with frequency, the X sub L vs F plot
would be linear. In reality, it is anything but linear.
 
M

maxfoo

Jan 1, 1970
0
_________________________________________________________

Er, no I don't. They both vary with frequency.

If the inductance did NOT vary with frequency, the X sub L vs F plot
would be linear. In reality, it is anything but linear.

X sub L is inductive reactance, yes that varies with freq.
L is the fixed value inductance.

though there is some parasitic capacitance between windings that does effect the
resonant freq. a bit. www.coilcraft.com gives guidelines to this.





Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill Turner wrote...
Er, no I don't. They both vary with frequency.

If the inductance did NOT vary with frequency, the X sub L
vs F plot would be linear. In reality, it is anything but linear.

We're talking a small air-coil here. As SRF is approached the
reactance does depart from the expected linear plot, but that's
because one should have considered X_C as well. Say, you're not
talking about an exotic high-frequency region where the physical
diameter of a coil may drop slightly due to proximity effect?
Sheesh!

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
_________________________________________________________

Er, no I don't. They both vary with frequency.

If the inductance did NOT vary with frequency, the X sub L vs F plot
would be linear. In reality, it is anything but linear.

I'm still none the wiser. Unless you're taking into account stray
inductance from the leads, of course. But the *body* of the inductor
by itself must surely be of a fixed inductance. One does not come
across coils rated at "3uH @ 150Mhz.", for example!
Are you talking about the impact of stray L from the lead-lengths?
 
B

Bill Turner

Jan 1, 1970
0
We're talking a small air-coil here.

Doesn't matter what kind of coil; all coils have a non-linear plot of
either inductance vs frequency OR reactance vs frequency. ALL coils.
As SRF is approached the
reactance does depart from the expected linear plot, but that's
because one should have considered X_C as well.

It departs because I should have considered it? HUH? How about it
departs because of the laws of physics, whether I consider it or not.
Say, you're not
talking about an exotic high-frequency region where the physical
diameter of a coil may drop slightly due to proximity effect?
Nope.

Sheesh!

Couldn't a said it better myself. :)
 
B

Bill Turner

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm still none the wiser. Unless you're taking into account stray
inductance from the leads, of course. But the *body* of the inductor
by itself must surely be of a fixed inductance. One does not come
across coils rated at "3uH @ 150Mhz.", for example!
Are you talking about the impact of stray L from the lead-lengths?

_________________________________________________________

Actually, one does come across such coils. All coils have a frequency
where they become a parallel resonant circuit, due to the capacitance
between windings. And oddly enough, *above* that parallel resonant
frequency, they become capacitive. Yes, you read that right, they
actually act like a capacitor, believe it or not.

Now, if you are always working with relatively small coils at relatively
low frequencies, you will probably never see this effect. But if you
ever have access to a $10,000 HP sweep impedance meter, hook up your
favorite coil and see just what I'm talking about. You will never look
at coils the same way again. :)
 
J

John Devereux

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill Turner said:
Doesn't matter what kind of coil; all coils have a non-linear plot of
either inductance vs frequency OR reactance vs frequency. ALL coils.

Well, just about anything is "non-linear" if you measure it accurately
enough! But is it really true that the *inductance* of a "small air
coil" is "dramatically" non-linear with frequency as you stated?
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Devereux said:
Well, just about anything is "non-linear" if you measure it accurately
enough! But is it really true that the *inductance* of a "small air
coil" is "dramatically" non-linear with frequency as you stated?

Intuitively I'd have thought the answer was plainly No, but I'm
certainly not technically savvy enough to be confident about that. But
I strongly suspect that the thread is already ovedue an unambiguous
definition of 'inductance'. Where's John Woodgate when you really need
him...<g>.
 
B

Bill Turner

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, just about anything is "non-linear" if you measure it accurately
enough! But is it really true that the *inductance* of a "small air
coil" is "dramatically" non-linear with frequency as you stated?

_________________________________________________________

Yes, it really is true. If you graph the reactance vs frequency of any
coil, starting just above DC, it will rise in a near-linear fashion for
a while, but will begin to steepen and when approaching the
self-resonant frequency, will quickly rise to maximum, and at that point
will suddenly drop to the opposite (negative, or capacitive) extreme and
then diminish back to near zero as the frequency continues to increase.
At that self-resonant frequency, the coil is behaving like a parallel
resonant circuit, which of course it is, due to the parasitic
capacitance between each winding. This parasitic capacitance is
unavoidable and ALL coils exhibit this characteristic. The truly
strange thing is that above the self-resonant frequency, the coil
actually behaves exactly like a capacitor, believe it or not.

In Amateur Radio, the most common application where this characteristic
becomes a problem is the design of plate chokes for tube type
amplifiers. Making a plate choke which covers all frequencies from 160
through 10 meters (including the WARC bands) with sufficient inductance
but without self-resonances in any ham band is difficult to the point of
being nearly impossible. Many amplifier designers give up trying to
design such a choke and simply switch part of the inductance in or out
of the circuit depending on which band is selected.
 
Top