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Weller WTCPT tip not hot enough

J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100, "Arfa Daily"


Interesting phrase there: "Clean the tip on a watery swamp." That one
required a quick mental recalibration...

Yes, that was quite confusing for a few moments.
On that issue, though, what are your thoughts on the use of brass
turnings as a tip cleaner vice a dunk in the swamp? I switched over to
the bowl of brass a while ago and now prefer it to the damp sponge.

I've never used one of those, but I've wondered how they would be. I'd
be concerned that they would wear thru the tip plating quickly and
lead to early death of the tips. Have you noticed any of that?

-
 
J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
As would I. The temperature has to be at least high enough to bring the
solder to its "liquidus" state. (Which is one of the reasons eutectic solder
is preferable.)

I certainly agree that we have to work above the liquidus. You're also
quite right about the advantage of working with a eutectic.

700 F is still quite a bit above the liquidus.

Before you get in too deep arguing for higher temps. you might want to
check out the reference that Arfa so kindly provided.

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

This is bilge.

It's clear that you disagree, but is it possible that you don't
understand the problem?

-
 
J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
It is easy , on checking different tips rather than soldering, to not
replace the cover. Whether it is a magnetic effect or a positioning effect,
I don't kniow, but it can affect the switching action.

I just did the most fundamental test on the sleeve. It's not
ferromagnetic at all. Therefore I don't see how it can have any effect
on the magnetic field at all. What kind of effect do you think you've
seen.
Another tip ;-)
Fit a TO220 transistor insulator/ washer above and below each of the 3
screw-heads that hold the end plate to the plastic handle - stops excess
heat cracking the plastic at the screws.

Sounds reasonable, except that I've never seen heat damage to the
screw anchor points in the plastic. I've certainly seen damage due to
careless starting of the screws without regard to not starting in the
original thread.

I'm surprised that those washers tolerate that heat. I'd expect it to
be a lot hotter there than the application they were designed for.
I must be doing something right , my one is at least 22 years of daily use
with the same heater, switch, cord etc, I've only changed bits. I only
switch on
prior to use , not left on all the time. Gives a time to reflect - is the
kit powered up? , have I confused left and right on turning the board over?
etc.

Mine's 31 years old. Not used all that often, but left on once I'm on
a job. I like these because you CAN leave them on without much harm.

My original heater burned out last year. Other than fixing the base
station outlet wiring when it was new, that was the only repair it's
needed. I think I'm on my second tip. I retin them by stirring them
around in that brown greasy soldering flux.

-
 
J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would absolutely dispute that statement



I would suggest Jim, that it does rather depend on what exactly you are
soldering. If you are making consistently good lead-free joints with a 700
deg Weller tip in all circumstances, then you are doing a lot better than
most of the major manufacturers.

Not sure what you're basing this on, since I doubt that any major
manufacturer is using irons in production. I would expect any real
production to be wave soldered for the last 20 years. I'm sure,
however, that wave soldering, with which I have no experience, has its
own set of problems.
Whilst you are correct in that a 700 deg tip melts lead-free solder, it does
not do so anything like as well as it does with leaded solder. Although
lead-free solder does not have as nice a melt / flow characteristic as
leaded in the first place, this undesirable quality is made much worse by
not having enough temperature on it

My own experience doesn't support your claims. I wish I could tell you
exactly what alloy we have at work, but it melts and flows perfectly
well. That could certainly be due to the flux, but I've noticed no
adverse effects from the flux. You also seem to be confusing the
concepts of heat and temperature, and the distinction between the two
is important.

One thing that DOES bother me about the lead free solders is that
everyone suggests that it is important to do repairs with the same
alloy as originally used. However there seem to be several lead free
alloys, and it does not seem that one can tell the difference between
them visually. So how does one know what to do when presented with a
lead free board to repair?
Use of a bigger tip to improve its own thermal inertia, is not an option
these days for general electronic service work. A finely pointed conical or
small screwdriver tip, is the order of the day. Component pin densities, and
component placement densities, are such that only a small tip and fine gauge
solder are appropriate in most cases, and it's just not a practical
proposition to keep changing tips, depending on what exactly is on your
bench at the time.

I agree that you can't be expected to use a large blunt tip on a fine
pitch high density board, but the link you provided below points out
other ways to accomplish the same thing.
When Weller came up with the 700 deg tip, it was with a traditional tin lead
solder alloy in mind. It is the tip that has always been supplied with these
irons from new. Lead-free melts at a temperature of 30 to 50 deg F higher
than leaded, so based on Weller's determination of 700 deg being appropriate
for leaded solder, you would have to extrapolate this thinking to come up
with a tip temperature of perhaps 750 deg, which is what I have both my
variable temperature controlled station, and vacuum desoldering stations set
to, for lead-free work.

This assumes that the 700 F was chosen because it was perfect for
tin/lead solder. There were probably other considerations, too, like
heat content and the typical thermal mass of electrical connections
when these irons first came out. Since many of those connections were
still point-to-point they would have needed much more heat than
present day junctions.
So I'm with Graham on this one (who is, like me, experienced in daily
soldering over many many years) in that for lots of lead-free work with a
Weller Magnastat iron, the best combination is a small tip, but with a lot
of heat behind it in the form of it being an 800 deg rated one. I don't
dispute that you can make good joints in lead-free with a 700 deg tip, as I
do it myself, but it does require very considerable care and experience to
'do it right'. There are now more appropriate soldering tools on the market
for lead-free work, than the good old TCP irons.

It's certainly clear that we're each entitled to our opinions.
There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

That's an interesting link that I haven't seen before and I appreciate
your pointing it out. I can't help mentioning that one thing it says
is that one should be very careful to avoid the temptation to increase
the soldering temperature when using lead free solder.

The first thing I actually noticed about this pdf was that it seemed
to be extremely poorly written. As Cooper Tools is a US company, I
thought it unusual that their English would be so poor. I'm even more
surprised to see that this comes from Cooper Tools GMBH (Germany.)

In spite of the poor translation, I suspect that they have much more
experience with the lead free problem than we do, and the meaning of
their writing is still, in most cases, clear.

-
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
Don't know about different types of lead-free solder.
But distinguishing lead free I've found is
1/ conical rather than domed solder joints
2/ putting a stainless steel sewing needle in some of the solder after
melting and extracting needle while still molten, it is much more
difficult
to remove the cold solder from the needle than doing the same with leaded
solder.

And many boards now actually state that they are lead free or "PbF" on the
silk screening. As far as I have been able to tell, it's not so much about
mixing different types of lead-free alloys, which may or may not contain
small traces of other metals such as silver, but more a case of not mixing
lead-free with leaded solder.

To Jim. All of my experience with this stuff is from a service rather than
production point of view. You are of course right that manufacturers use
wave or reflow soldering, and have done for many years. The point I was
making about lead-free joints and Weller TCPs at 700 deg, versus
manufacturers' joints, was perhaps not grammatically well-made. What I was
basically saying was that the manufacturers, with all of their expertise and
expensive production soldering equipment, still can't get to grips with the
stuff themselves, and are still producing equipment littered with bad joints
from day one. So, if you are making consistently good 'production' joints in
lead free, using 700 degree hand soldering equipment designed way way before
any eco-prat had ever come up with the concept of taking the lead out of
solder, then you (your company) are doing, on average, better than the big
boys.

As far as heat and temperature are concerned, I take your point that they
are not the same thing, and I don't think that I am confusing the two. They
are however, inextricably linked to one another by external influences.
Energy, in the form of heat, is what has to be put into a body in order to
raise its temperature. All solder has to have its temperature raised to the
point where its liquid state becomes suitable for making a soldered joint,
and then maintained at that temperature until the joint is completed. The
temperature at which this condition occurs for lead-free solder, is higher
than that of leaded solder. If you are just making small joints, then this
is of no consequence, and a 700 degree tip is fine for the job. With a
leaded joint - even a large one that causes the tip temperature to drop by a
few degrees - that drop is again of little consequence, as there is plenty
of temperature 'overhead' available from a 700 deg tip. However, with
lead-free, 50 degrees of that overhead, have already gone, so if a joint is
any bigger than 'small', the additional temperature drop at the tip, caused
by the joint leaching heat from it, results in a less than adequate tip
temperature being maintained, to correctly complete the joint. The result is
a bad or 'cold' joint. A 700 degree tip simply cannot maintain enough
heatflow into the solder, to keep it at a sufficient temperature to do a
'good job' on anything other than a small joint, and this is particularly
the case where a 'typical' repair workshop tip of small dimensions is used.

I have a repair service for a particular board which uses lead-free, and I
see many of them where the shop that's sending it back to me, have attempted
some rework or component replacement, and it's quite obvious that they have
been trying to use their normal leaded soldering equipment to do the job,
with the inevitable consequences.

I can accept what Cooper say about not being tempted to increase the tip
temperature, but I think that they are probably talking more about not going
up far enough to get the same 'feel' with lead-free, as with leaded. Most
commentators on the subject, including soldering equipment manufacturers,
agree that a higher nominal tip temperature is required to work reliably
with lead-free.

One of the main reasons that manufacturers are having so much trouble with
the stuff, is that they have to run their soldering processes at a higher
temperature. This then brings them close to the maximums that some of the
components can tolerate for any length of time, so they have to compromise
and run the process at a slightly reduced temperature. That is fine until
you have to solder a connector or power semiconductor - particularly one
that is mounted on a heatsink, and that is where many lead-free bad joints
are occuring. Trust me, if manufacturers didn't *have* to run their
processes at a higher temperature, with all of the implications of that,
including a higher energy useage, to cope with lead-free, then they wouldn't
....

Arfa
 
B

Bob Shuman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Having worked in electronics assembly and manufacturing for many years, I
can confirm your assumption that all new production work gets wave soldered
and it has its own set of issues as evidenced by many cold solder joints
found in the field! That said, hand irons are still used for repairs...

Bob
 
R

Rich Webb

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes, that was quite confusing for a few moments.


I've never used one of those, but I've wondered how they would be. I'd
be concerned that they would wear thru the tip plating quickly and
lead to early death of the tips. Have you noticed any of that?

None at all. I'm love to see a comparative study, though; must be one
out there somewhere in the vast Intertoobz. I've been pleased with it.
No more hiss'n'sizzle.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I can assure you they don't unless you take half a minute to make each joint. I an
of course talking about fibreglass (FR$) or CEM material not paper crap.


Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique. Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.

Well let me explain something to you.

The process in question involved soldering a number of TO-220 devices onto a
largish PCB. The TO-220 devices were already mounted on a substantial heatsink.

You could get what 'looked' like a good joint using a 700F tip because of capillary
action up the component lead but maybe 2% of those joints were 'dry' or cold'
because the component leg was itself being heatsunk by the big heatink. 800F tips
fixed it. Then the manufacturing smart alecs went back to 700F tips and as I said
the returns rate went up again.

I recall one example where I was asked to look at the return since it was design of
mine. Took the retaining clip off the TO-200 device and could pull it by hand out of
the PCB leaving perfect 3 rectangular holes where the leads had been in what looked
like perfect solder joints. Of course it worked to begin with because of mechanical
contact which then loosened up with thime.Case proven I think.

In short, you're plain wrong. I have VERY considerable experience in electronics
manufacturing, design and production I will add. Indeed I act as a consultant in the
field.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily wrote:

snip
Whilst you are correct in that a 700 deg tip melts lead-free solder, it does
not do so anything like as well as it does with leaded solder. Although
lead-free solder does not have as nice a melt / flow characteristic as
leaded in the first place, this undesirable quality is made much worse by
not having enough temperature on it - particularly when soldering a
component with a high thermal inertia, such as a connector or power
semiconductor.

Absolutely spot on !

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
I still use 700s because of the problem of 800s burning out quicker when
left idling all day,

Well I simply don't let it idle all day. It's guarenteed to give those nasty
'inter-metallic oxides' in the long term anyway that make re-tinning near
impossible. A guy I used to work with would switch on the bench (including iron)
and maybe not use the iron all day. Whenever I noticed, I'd switch it off again.
Why waste electricity anyway ?

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
"Arfa Daily" wrote

Did you never ever use ancient pure copper tips ? That's why Multicore added
a small percentage of copper to some of their solders.

IIRC,that has some powdered solder mixed in with the flux.
It cleans AND tins.

That's the stuff.

(of course,AFAIK,it's not lead-free....)

Damn good news !

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
William said:
As would I. The temperature has to be at least high enough to bring the
solder to its "liquidus" state. (Which is one of the reasons eutectic solder
is preferable.)


This is bilge.

Quite. The total stress on the components is in fact likely to be be LESS.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
700 F is still quite a bit above the liquidus.

And how long do you think it's actually going to take the SOLDER to reach that temp ?

Ever heard of thermal inertia ?

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100, "Arfa Daily"


Interesting phrase there: "Clean the tip on a watery swamp." That one
required a quick mental recalibration...

On that issue, though, what are your thoughts on the use of brass
turnings as a tip cleaner vice a dunk in the swamp? I switched over to
the bowl of brass a while ago and now prefer it to the damp sponge.

I tried one of those brass things and it was useless IMHO. It left loads of crap on the
tip. Use a moist Weller sponge every time.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
GMAN said:
This EU RoHs requirement for lead free solder is the precise reason the XBOX
360 has had such a high failure rate.

I hate to think what's lurking in the woodwork. At least aerospace is exempt !

I don't know about car ECUs though. That could be fun. Lead-free hates vibration with a vengeance.

As I may have said elsewhere I know that at least one loudspeaker manufacturer got an exemption because the
sound was causing lead-free lead-out wire terminations to fail. There's implications there for a lot of
sound equipment.

Graham
 
Eeyore wrote:
Well I simply don't let it idle all day. It's guarenteed to give those nasty
'inter-metallic oxides' in the long term anyway that make re- tinning near
impossible. A guy I used to work with would switch on the bench (including iron)
and maybe not use the iron all day. Whenever I noticed, I'd switch it off again.
Why waste electricity anyway ?

Graham

Stop screwing around with Weller if you're serious about soldering and
production certainly qualifies. Get a Metcal. It's ready to use in 10
seconds and with the vastly superior heating element, you don't need
to push it to 800 and live with the temperature 'coasting' down every
time it touches a cold connection. The heating element in the Metcal
_is_ the temp sensor and it's as close to the tip as you can get. Try
one of those and your Wellers will be like both of mine - in a box in
the garage.

So far I've bought 8 Metcal systems, initially one for me personally
and then 6 soldering stations and 1 de-soldering station at work. eBay
is great for this. The cheapest power unit I got was $10 and since it
was local (Los Angeles), I picked it up on the way home and paid no
shipping.

 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob said:
Having worked in electronics assembly and manufacturing for many years, I
can confirm your assumption that all new production work gets wave soldered
and it has its own set of issues as evidenced by many cold solder joints
found in the field! That said, hand irons are still used for repairs...

I recall our Bombay sub-contract had a decent wave solder machine with proper
pre-heat etc, good meterials used like Kester solders and fluxes etc. Only
trouble is, every board has a different thermal profile so you should make a
batch of X number of a certain board using one level of pre-heat followed by
another with its level and so on.

However they were not sufficiently organised to be able to do this so they use
some 'average pre-heat' value.

However that pales into insignificance when I discovered what they were up to
at an earlier stage in the process.

We had a LOT of dry/cold joints from them. Prosound / Ahuja. Avoid.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Smitty said:
I'm with Graham on this one. I threw all the Wellers in the dumpster a
few years back (tired of fixing them all the time) but when we did use
them we used nothing but 800 degree tips.

Now we've got another brand of iron with dial adjustable temperature and
keep them set at 800, also. For the hobbyist or even repair tech,
waiting two or three seconds for a small joint to heat up might be
acceptable, but for production work it isn't.

And as far as board damage, higher temps are much *less* likely to
damage the board, and the components, because dwell time is drastically
reduced.

Finally as to reduced tip life at higher temps, that cost is offset by
increased efficiency 1000 times over.

Indeed. Worrying about the cost of an occasional replacemtn tip means someone's
priorities are way askew. Stinks of the MBA culture actually. They never can see
the wood for the trees.

Grahm
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
N said:
Arfa Daily wrote in message


Is all your info available collated together on a website somewhere. ?

Any comments on the following
If replacing new (ROHS) components to old boards (leaded solder) then scrape
off most of the hard mirror-like finnish on the leads before tining with and
then soldering with Pb-Sn solder

21Century RoHS boards , repair of but not production (heavy solder usage),
use silver solder, or is that likely to lead to as much a problem as mixing
RoHs and PbSn solder.

I read somewhere a while back that the military, aerospace and telecoms guys
were sending components out to de 'de-tinned' of lead free and re-tinned with
the proper stuff.

Crazy ! Otherwise you can get problems.

Graham
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
Is all your info available collated together on a website somewhere. ?

Any comments on the following
If replacing new (ROHS) components to old boards (leaded solder) then
scrape
off most of the hard mirror-like finnish on the leads before tining with
and
then soldering with Pb-Sn solder

21Century RoHS boards , repair of but not production (heavy solder usage),
use silver solder, or is that likely to lead to as much a problem as
mixing
RoHs and PbSn solder.

I don't have info particularly collated anywhere, but if you want to contact
me off group with an address that's monitored for input, I'll send you a
copy of the article, which contains references to where I got info, and who
from. I don't think that there is any particular need to remove the surface
of RoHS compliant components' leads. I seem to recall reading somewhere that
most component leads are now tin plated, as in coated in neat tin, rather
than being 'tinned' with any kind of solder, as they were in the past. A
coating of pure tin should not cause any problems when used with a
conventional SnPb solder. As far as using silver solder is concerned, I
don't believe that there is any need to go to those lengths. Given the
limited life and price of modern equipment, I think that any repair that
keeps a piece of kit going for another year is a result, and if the joint
that you made as part of the repair gives up after that time, then san fairy
ann ... Some commentators suggest using a lead-free alloy which contains a
small quantity of silver for hand work. These alloys have a melting point
closer to that of SnPb solder, and similar 'workability', but do of course,
cost significantly more, so I don't bother with them, for the same basic
reasons of equipment life / value.

On that score, just out of interest, I bought a little DVD player from the
local Tesco store last week. It's about the size of a portable player, but
without the LCD screen. It plays every format imaginable, gives a cracking
picture on my (CRT !) TV, and came with all leads and a very comprehensive
user guide in good english. It even has a full function 'credit card' remote
control. How much ? Fifteen quid !! ($27).

If it goes wrong, it's just toss-away. Don't care what solder it's made with
....

Arfa
 
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