TheAirCar

[Don Kelly]

Not so. The words "heat pump" was used. A heat pump moves heat. A
conventional heat pump with COP 5 produces 5kW for every 1 kW it uses.

Heat pumps are now in COP 6 and 7 I believe on air to air. Take a COP 7.
Instead of having an electric motor turning the refrigerant compressor
install a high efficient Stirling motor that produces 1kW. Now for every 1
kW of energy the Stirling uses the fridge compressor will produce 7 kW. The
heat and cooling side for Stirling to keep it running is provided by the
refrigerants condenser and evaporator. Heat from the air is extracted to
make the Stirling move. That should keep running.

------------
Unfortunately this will not work. This idea has been proposed many times and
the net result is that the output from the Stirling engine will be less than
what it needs to drive the heat pump. This is, in effect, what you are
asking it to do (as well as producing excess energy for other things) This
is a fact of life and the second law of thermodynamics still holds.

Take your COP heat pump. The heat delivered to the hot reservoir is Qh=7 kWh
The input work is W=1 Kwh and the heat from the atmosphere is Qc =6 kWh (not
kW which is power not energy)
At the theoretical best, a "reverse" carnot cycle can be obtained where COP
=Th/(Th-Tc) where Th and Tc are the hot and cold reservoir temperatures
(degrees K) Real heat pumps don't reach this COP
Now put the heat back into a heat engine. Perfect heat pump and perfect heat
engine results in a 0 sum game.

Example:
Suppose that an ideal heat pump has a cold reservoir temperature Tc of 0C
or 273K and the hot reservoir is at 20C or 293K. The COP will be
293/(293-273) =14.65 Raising the Th or making the temperature differential
smaller will improve the COP (infinite if the cold and hot reservoirs are
the same temperature but then the heat pump will be doing nothing).
Now we use the extracted heat and use it in a Carnot engine (ideal heat
engine).\
The engine efficiency is (Th-Tc)/Th =20/293 =6.83 %
If 1kWh into the heat pump yields 14.65 kWh of heat , this 14.65kWh will
yield a useful engine output of 14.65*0.0683=1.00 kwh A real heat engine
over the same temperature range will have a lower efficiency. We have a zero
sum game.
Now we can increase the high temperature and reduce the low temperature so
that the heat engine efficiency will increase. However the COP of the heat
pump will decrease - still 0 sum. The heat pump works best over a narrow
temperature range where the heat engine is very inefficient. Now take a real
Stirling engine and a real heat pump and the COP will be lower and the
engine efficiency higher at any given temperature differential. Try it for
different temperature differences.

I suggest you read:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatpump.html#c1

Still a pipe dream- facts get in the way.

 

[News]

every

I have read of Stirlings that requitre little, and lower temperature heat to
operate.

 

[Robert Morien]

I have read of Stirlings that requitre little, and lower temperature heat to
operate.

When you heard that, did you hear about the cost and what kind of energy
output you could expect?

 

[Robert Morien]

Did you even read his post ????????????? in it he quite clearly
mentioned that the smaller the temperature difference,the less work
you can extract !

As i mentioned up a few posts, the stirling engines that run on the
heat of your hand barly produce enough power to overcome
internalfriction !!! let along run a compressor.

I believe "news" is entertaining us with the "humiliation" dance.

 

[Vaughn]

I believe "news" is entertaining us with the "humiliation" dance.

As I said the other day, "news" is either an idiot or a troll. In either
case, why bother?

Vaughn

 

[Don Kelly]

I have read of Stirlings that requitre little, and lower temperature heat to
operate.

----------
Crank the numbers. The Stirling cycle is based on the Rankin cycle and if
the Rankin cycle can't hack it- don't expect the Stirling to do so as it has
losses that the ideal cycle doesn't have. Use a Stirling cycle heat pump as
well- the equations that I gave are the best possible cases. Try them out at
different temperatures.

 

[Robert Morien]

As I said the other day, "news" is either an idiot or a troll. In either
case, why bother?

Vaughn

Two reasons: people such as "news" can easily infect the gullible so the
more times he is proven wrong, the more possibility that the next newbie
will have more opportunities to discover the truth on their own; usenet
is the only place in the U.S. where you can play with the handicapped
and not be politically incorrect.

 

[News]

As I said the other day, "news" is either an idiot or a troll. In either
case, why bother?

So you still don't believe these compressed air engines work then.

 

[Anthony Matonak]

Two reasons: people such as "news" can easily infect the gullible so the
more times he is proven wrong, the more possibility that the next newbie
will have more opportunities to discover the truth on their own; usenet
is the only place in the U.S. where you can play with the handicapped
and not be politically incorrect.

Even on usenet it's not politically correct to torture the handicapped
and even less appropriate to pollute the newsgroups while doing so.

I don't believe that doubling a trolls postings (by replying to each
and every one) is doing any service to anyone but the troll.

There are plenty of sources of information on the internet outside of
your posting that a newbie may use to discover the truth on their own.
If they really wish to learn they only need a few pointers, not getting
hit over the head repeatedly.

Anthony

 

[Don Kelly]

"Don Kelly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<mqZhd.100856> > >

Unfortunately this will not work. This idea has been proposed many times

 

[Robert Morien]

So you still don't believe these compressed air engines work then.

define "these compressed air engines" and "work", but also define the
efficaciousness of your definitions. ie cost/mile and total cost per
100k miles (initial cost, maintenance, auxillary equipment, etc)

 

[Robert Morien]

...unless you count engaging in battles of wits with the unarmed.


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

fortunatel that isn't addressed in the ADA

 

[Robert Morien]

Even on usenet it's not politically correct to torture the handicapped

I've never come across that stricture.

and even less appropriate to pollute the newsgroups while doing so.

I buy pollution credits from other newsgroups

I don't believe that doubling a trolls postings (by replying to each
and every one) is doing any service to anyone but the troll.

when trolls believe that they are superior you can always hope that
they'll play in traffic

There are plenty of sources of information on the internet outside of
your posting that a newbie may use to discover the truth on their own.
If they really wish to learn they only need a few pointers, not getting
hit over the head repeatedly.

But so few really wish to learn.

 

[News]

But so few really wish to learn.

I've noticed.

 

[tadchem]

I've noticed.

Death is just the ultimate application of ignorance.


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

 

[Robert Morien]

I've noticed.

Thank you for admitting your ignorance. It's the first step on the road
to being properly educated.

 

[News]

Thank you for admitting your ignorance. It's the first step on the road
to being properly educated.

So, you don't think these air engines work then?

 

[Don Kelly]

So, you don't think these air engines work then?

Sure, air engines can work. No one denies this. Efficiency and practibility
are real concerns.

Overunity air engines are another matter- as with all other "overunity"
devices they don't work except to extract money from suckers' pockets and
transfer it to the claimant's pockets.

 

[Robert Morien]

So, you don't think these air engines work then?

As I have previously requested: which particular air engines, define
"work" and then give us a spreadsheet on Efficiency (including initial
cost, maintenance, auxillary equipment, plus cost per hour and cost per
1K miles)

 

[News]

"News" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Here is where you might get a handle on your problem. There is a big
difference between 'working' and being 'practical'. Yes an motor
operated on air will work in very limited circumstances. No, they
will never be a practical auto because of their horrendously poor
energy conversion. All your hand-waving and trying to avoid the
thermo laws won't change that.

A number of makers around the world disgaree with you and have them in
operation, with much research still going on. Maybe they know something you
do not.

If this French unit is on sale it could be hooked to a generator and have a
wind turbine charge up an air tank. The charge never degrades like a
battery's does. A heat pump compressor on the end of one of these motors
may be feasible too.