TheAirCar

[Gman]

I came across a car manufacturer who claims have designed a car which runs
off compressed air. Is this for real or just hot air? Pros comment.

The web site is www.theaircar.com/

Cheers,
Gman
www.pollution.net

 

[Dave Gower]

I came across a car manufacturer who claims have designed a car which runs
off compressed air. Is this for real or just hot air?

Look this up on Google newsgroups. There have been many lengthily
discussions on this topic, generally with the consensus that it's not a very
promising technology. There are one or more determined proponents, although
their motives seem suspect to me. Personally I think it's a non-starter for
general road use (hopelessly low energy availability).

 

[brian]

Look this up on Google newsgroups. There have been many lengthily
discussions on this topic, generally with the consensus that it's not a
very promising technology. There are one or more determined proponents,
although their motives seem suspect to me. Personally I think it's a
non-starter for general road use (hopelessly low energy availability).
====================

In road battery charging will solve all mobile energy problems right we
already have the simple basics in place.
What is required is enough energy in the battery system to keep the vehicle
moving while not in a position to charge, this could be say 10 to 20 miles,
and even a backup charging system fo emergencies.
Each road user pays by size and distance travelled through metering .

 

[Fred B. McGalliard]

I came across a car manufacturer who claims have designed a car which runs
off compressed air. Is this for real or just hot air? Pros comment.

Cold air actually. After it works on the pistons it gets very cold.

 

[Dave Gower]

I see no reason why the Air Car wouldn't work fine - if there is a
charging station every twenty miles (probably every one or two miles
in the city) it wouldn't be a problem - it's designed for commuting,
where it makes abundant sense - if you're stuck in slow moving
traffic, it's a hideous waste of petrol to have your engine running
while you're going nowhere. The air car uses all of its energy only
when it's moving, and can be recharged from renewable sources, so it
100% 'green'.

Two arguments against this a) low efficiency means that it takes more energy
outside the vehicle to provide the power, and regenerative braking (a major
feature of electric vehicles) is more difficult to arrange (although not
impossible). Electric vehicles have far more favourable numbers.

 

[£¢$¥]

I see no reason why the Air Car wouldn't work fine - if there is a
charging station every twenty miles (probably every one or two miles
in the city) it wouldn't be a problem - it's designed for commuting,
where it makes abundant sense - if you're stuck in slow moving
traffic, it's a hideous waste of petrol to have your engine running
while you're going nowhere. The air car uses all of its energy only
when it's moving, and can be recharged from renewable sources, so it
100% 'green'.

Oh yeah? What "renewable sources" would those be to compress the air? Do
you mean the 120VAC outlet in my garage? Last time that I checked, the
electricity available through this portal was generated by coal or uranium.
Your flip assertion that the air car is "100% green" is wrong.

I don't know how you drive, but when I'm stuck in slow moving traffic, my
car is forced to jerk along in stop-and-go fashion. Its very inefficient
and would be just as inefficient if my motor was using compressed air for
the energy source.

 

[Anthony Matonak]

Oh yeah? What "renewable sources" would those be to compress the air? Do
you mean the 120VAC outlet in my garage? Last time that I checked, the
electricity available through this portal was generated by coal or uranium.
Your flip assertion that the air car is "100% green" is wrong.

It could be recharged from renewable sources (solar, wind, hydro,
biodiesel). Someone could, for instance, place a lot of PV panels
on their garage and use the electricity to recharge the car. Some
folks are already doing this with electric vehicles.

I don't know how you drive, but when I'm stuck in slow moving traffic, my
car is forced to jerk along in stop-and-go fashion. Its very inefficient
and would be just as inefficient if my motor was using compressed air for
the energy source.

It would be more efficient in the sense that the engine (air motor)
wouldn't be running while the vehicle was stopped. Hybrids are more
efficient for the same reason except they actually work.

Anthony

 

[Prai Jei]

Gman (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message

I came across a car manufacturer who claims have designed a car which runs
off compressed air. Is this for real or just hot air? Pros comment.

The web site is www.theaircar.com/

Cheers,
Gman
www.pollution.net

Sounds similar to the "fireless" locomotives that did shunting duties in
yards full of chemicals, explosives or foodstuffs, any environment where
the products of coal combustion were unwelcome. The loco was actually a
pressure tank on wheels, filled with *steam* under pressure from a static
boiler operating a safe distance away. No doubt compressed air could be
used instead of steam with minimal redesign of the loco.

(The only time I ever saw one of these things it was dead, and before I knew
how it worked I had guessed that compressed air might be the immediate
fuel.)

The problem, of course, is the limited range between recharges. I was unable
to glean any statistics on this point, but the most telling factor is that
such locos were only used for shunting duties.

And of course, there's no way round the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Some
energy has to be expended (and entropy created) generating the steam or
compressing the air to fill the tank.

 

[Pom-pom-pom]

I see no reason why the Air Car wouldn't work fine - if there is a
charging station every twenty miles (probably every one or two miles
in the city) it wouldn't be a problem - it's designed for commuting,
where it makes abundant sense - if you're stuck in slow moving
traffic, it's a hideous waste of petrol to have your engine running
while you're going nowhere. The air car uses all of its energy only
when it's moving, and can be recharged from renewable sources, so it
100% 'green'.

I doubt it works, because if it did, big auto corporations would already
build them and sell them. If there is money to be made, they never hesitate.

Anyway the energetic problem is to compress the air at low cost.

Maybe wave energy can help here. Something like a very long pipe in the
waves with a series of pistons and valves escalating the pressure. I wonder
if it is technically feasible... and economically profitable!

 

[Fred B. McGalliard]

....

Also if they used a low RPM long stroke engine then the air
consumption would be a lot less. Because the power stroke is all the
way down the cylinder because of the constant air pressure entering
the cylinder.

If the issue were just how to get enough power, you would be right. The
issue is how to get the most energy over most of the operating region, since
this determines how far you can go, and that means you have to shut off the
gas just after tdc and allow it to expand till you at least come close to
ambient pressure. This is best done in two or three successive steps (and
each one larger or at least running at a higher cycle rate), with ambient
heat supplied between each step.

 

[News]

"Gman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

There are at least 5 air cars in serious developement at present.
Compressed air locomitives were once common in mines and I believe
trucks, trams, cars have all be opperated by compressed air.

An American one by a Professor at UCLA:
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001552.html
http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/stories/2003/hybrid.htm
http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/stories/2003/hybrid.htm


An Australian one in production as a carier car:
<http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/3/2004/08/26/story002.html>
<http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm>

The rotary operation of this engine is real neat. This can also be adapted
for a fuel burning rotary. Much superior to the wobbly Wankel.

 

[News]

[email protected] (Hamish) wrote in message

The MDI web site actually shows how the piston remains at top dead
center for 70 degrees of rotation of the shaft and then slowy moves
of. This has two effects:

1 expansion occurs in the cylinder rather than in the pipeing and
valving to that cylinder.

2 it leads to a smoother delivery of power as the mechanical advantage
is reduced appropriatly when the pressure is at its highest.

I assume you approve of the MDI engine then. I know the Australian engine is
a reality and is for sale in a small industrial vehicle, but which air
engine do you think will make it to auto production? MDI has been at it for
years and many promised sell dates have been missed.

 

[News]

It could be recharged from renewable sources (solar, wind, hydro,
biodiesel). Someone could, for instance, place a lot of PV panels
on their garage and use the electricity to recharge the car. Some
folks are already doing this with electric vehicles.


It would be more efficient in the sense that the engine (air motor)
wouldn't be running while the vehicle was stopped. Hybrids are more
efficient for the same reason except they actually work.

Air motors works, except they are limited in sales - only the Australian
motor is in production.

 

[News]

I doubt it works, because if it did, big
auto corporations would already
build them and sell them.

You can't be that naive! The big auto giants don't want change a they are
doing very nicely tank you very much.

 

[News]

"Gman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

There are at least 5 air cars in serious developement at present.
Compressed air locomitives were once common in mines and I believe
trucks, trams, cars have all be opperated by compressed air.

An American one by a Professor at UCLA:
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001552.html
http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/stories/2003/hybrid.htm
http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/stories/2003/hybrid.htm


An Australian one in production as a carier car:
<http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/3/2004/08/26/story002.html>
<http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm>

A Korean One:
http://kn.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2001/08/14/200108140020.asp
http://energine.com/eng/index.html

The french one MDI
http://www.theaircar.com/

http://www.zevcat.com/index.html

(there are several others by manufactures: the most impressive is the
japanese one)



There is a amateurs website with lots of linkages on old air motors,
locomtives, tractors and cars:
http://aircaraccess.com/sites.htm

More info. Compressed air car in the
Pricey Oil Could Be Boon for European Car:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6138955/

 

[News]

Look this up on Google newsgroups. There have been many lengthily
discussions on this topic, generally with the consensus that it's not a very
promising technology.

You mean a lot of know it alls thought it didn't work. One engine is
actually in production. You can buy it.

 

[Vaughn]

but which air engine do you think will make it to auto production?

If you are talking mass market, the answer is likely "none". Compressed
air is not a terribly efficient way to store energy.

MDI has been at it for
years and many promised sell dates have been missed.

You have finally been honest enough with yourself to acknowledge the
500-pound gorrilla,

Vaughn

 

[News]

If you are talking mass market, the answer is likely "none". Compressed
air is not a terribly efficient way to store energy.


You have finally been honest enough with yourself to acknowledge the
500-pound gorrilla,

But one lovely rotary air engine is in production. Much research is under
way too, even by that dinosaur Ford of all people. I wonder why? Is it
because the French and Koreans are making headway? Mmmmm. If it was
totally and overtly unviable no research would be under way by anyone. The
German 1930s Diesel air loco obviously worked with a 26% increase in
efficiency. Why was it dropped after WW2? Look at the links page that was
given for an update:
http://aircaraccess.com/sites.htm

 

[News]

"Gman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

There are at least 5 air cars in serious developement at present.
Compressed air locomitives were once common in mines and I believe
trucks, trams, cars have all be opperated by compressed air.

An American one by a Professor at UCLA:
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001552.html
http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/stories/2003/hybrid.htm
http://www.engineer.ucla.edu/stories/2003/hybrid.htm


An Australian one in production as a carier car:
<http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/3/2004/08/26/story002.html>
<http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm>

A Korean One:
http://kn.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2001/08/14/200108140020.asp
http://energine.com/eng/index.html

The french one MDI
http://www.theaircar.com/

http://www.zevcat.com/index.html

(there are several others by manufactures: the most impressive is the
japanese one)

Do you have any links to the Japanese research?

 

[News]

I cant help but rembeber that something like 4 years ago they were
promising "on the market in 6 months ".......

That doesn't mean it doesn't work and is not viable.

Tsu-Chin Tsao in California is/was developing an existing motor with Ford
engineers using an existing IC engine which quads as a compressor, air
engine, petrol engine and partial braking system. All viable, yet Ford were
apparently only interested in the pneumatic/elecro camless vale train.

This would be an IC/air hybrid instead of IC/electro as Toyota and Hoda
have. All appears viable, but Ford will not give proper funding. I wonder
why?