Maker Pro
Maker Pro

surge protection built into ordinary household electronics

J

Jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
The design calls for a transformer, a full-wave bridge rectifier, and a
capacitor, then a regulator.

and here I was with the impression that your two chips were connected
directly to the line current.
Should I just put that ZNR surge absorber
across the capacitor? How do I select the size?

put a ceramic capacitor of 1.0uF or larger in parallel with the main
reservoir capacitor (this will swallow any short spikes) and make sure
your regulator is sufficientyly heatsunk to handle a little over-voltage
and normally operating below 80% of it's maximum input voltage
(to deal with longer surges, and persistant overvoltage)

Bye.
Jasen
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jasen said:
even toasters, lamps, alarm clocks, and jugs?

Bye.
Jasen


How big are your jugs?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Matt

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'll need to bring it down to 5.5V or less for the MCU. That is simple
with a 5V regulator and an 8V transformer. Could use an LDO (LM2937),
but that part is kind of expensive, and its datasheet calls for solid
tantalum caps (due to electrolytics having high ESR at low
temperatures). The 7805 is cheaper and apparently can use electrolytics
even at low temps, can even be used without a cap on the output.
Not required. 6.3V is the RMS voltage, the peaks are 10V
and (after bridge rectifier) you get 8V on your filter capacitor.

The transformer's RMS rating is 6.3V 0.400A.

With a 408 mA load across the filter, the potential at the filter is
4.95V. With a 77 mA load across the filter, the potential at the filter
is 8.1V. With no load, the filter is at 10.1V.
And if you need to switch a relay, why do that with the regulated
power? Just use a $0.06 PN2222 transistor with a base resistor,
emitter to ground, and tie the terminals of the relay to unregulated
8V
and to the collector of the transistor. Your relay winding has
tolerance
for overvoltage, surely!

Wouldn't you expect the relay to last longer if the coil is run at its
rated voltage? And I want to use a TVS across the coil, so I need to
know the standoff voltage for that part. I guess I could measure the
coil voltage during operation to spec the TVS, but my impulse is to just
regulate it. Also that way I could change models of relay without
upsetting the rest of the design.

Thanks to mpm, my design now calls for a low-resistance FET (RFP12N10L)
so that the coil will see very close to 5.0V.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
whit3rd said:
Not required. 6.3V is the RMS voltage, the peaks are 10V

No. If it's really 6.3V the peaks will be 9V.

However I suspect it's not actually 6.3V.

and (after bridge rectifier) you get 8V on your filter capacitor.

7V. Then calculate the ripple and deduct half that for the average voltage.

Now repeat for high and low line conditions.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matt said:
I'll need to bring it down to 5.5V or less for the MCU. That is simple
with a 5V regulator and an 8V transformer. Could use an LDO (LM2937),
but that part is kind of expensive, and its datasheet calls for solid
tantalum caps (due to electrolytics having high ESR at low
temperatures).

How low a temp does it need to work at. I thought this was some household
thingy.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matt said:
Wouldn't you expect the relay to last longer if the coil is run at its
rated voltage?

Why would that even affect it ?
And I want to use a TVS across the coil,

Why ?
so I need to know the standoff voltage for that part.

Use a reverse diode for heaven's sake.

Where did you learn this technique of bad (excessively costly) design ?

Graham
 
M

Matt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
How low a temp does it need to work at. I thought this was some household
thingy.

Graham

It should also work outside in very cold weather.
 
M

Matt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Why would that even affect it ?

Well, I don't know ... maybe a high voltage would make the contacts
bounce or something ... something similar for low voltage. Obviously
the designers have optimized it to work at a certain voltage, and I feel
safer in not straying from that.

I've posted this link a few times on this thread:
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3311.pdf
Effects of Coil Suppression on Relay Dynamics and Life
Even though the use of coil suppression is becoming more significant,
relays are normally designed without taking the dynamic impact of
suppressors into account. The optimum switching life (for normally-open
contacts) is therefore obtained with a totally unsuppressed relay and
statements of rated electrical life are usually based on this premise. The
successful "breaking" of a DC load requires that the relay contacts move
to open with a reasonably high speed.
A typical relay will have an accelerating motion of its armature toward the
unenergized rest position during drop-out. The velocity of the armature at
the instant of contact opening will play a significant role in the relay's
ability to avoid "tack welding" by providing adequate force to break any
light welds made during the "make" of a high current resistive load (or one
with a high in-rush current). It is the velocity of the armature that is most
affected by coil suppression. If the suppressor provides a conducting path,
thus allowing the stored energy in the relay's magnetic circuit to decay
slowly, the armature motion will be retarded and the armature may even
temporarily reverse direction. The reversing of direction and re-closing of
the contacts (particularly when combined with inductive loads) often leads
to random, intermittent "tack welding" of the contacts such that the relay
may free itself if operated again or even jarred slightly.
Based upon the impact on armature motion and optimizing for normallyopen
contacts, the best suppression method is to use a silicon transient
suppressor diode. This suppressor will have the least effect on relay dropout
dynamics since the relay transient will be allowed to go to a
predetermined voltage level and then permit current to flow with a low
impedance. This results in the stored energy being quickly dissipated by
the suppressor. Transient suppressor diodes are available as bi-directional
components and permit the relay to be non-polarized when installed
internally. Note that if a uni-directional transient suppressor is used, a
rectifier diode must be placed in series with it to block normal current
flow and it has little advantage over the use of a zener diode. The transient
suppressor should be selected such that its pulse energy rating exceeds
any anticipated transient such as coil turn-off or motor "noise" found in the
application.


This paper has some graphs:
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3264.pdf
Coil Suppression Can Reduce Relay Life

Use a reverse diode for heaven's sake.

Where did you learn this technique of bad (excessively costly) design ?

Aw shucks ... just sorta developed it on my own ...
 
M

Matt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Where did you learn this technique of bad (excessively costly) design ?

Note that there is another "Matt" who posted on this thread. I am not
the one who suggested three MOVs and a fuse. The other Matt did that at
6/6/07 4:37PM.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matt said:
Well, I don't know ... maybe a high voltage would make the contacts
bounce or something ... something similar for low voltage. Obviously
the designers have optimized it to work at a certain voltage, and I feel
safer in not straying from that.


I've posted this link a few times on this thread:
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3311.pdf

That's easy. Just add a zener diode in series withe usual 'clamp diode'. No need to
calculate hold-off voltages.

Graham
 
M

mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, we've learned several things thus far:

1 - Wall sockets don't provide 1,000 Volts+. Not even close.

2 - Using a transformer with a proper secondary, can negate the need
for an LDO.

3 - There is always more than one way to design a circuit, though
typically significantly fewer ways to design it economically. These
costs must consider circuit assembly costs, and the cost of carrying
additional parts inventory. There can also be physical size
constraints, heat, etc..

4 - FET's make great switches, though they are not the only solution.

5 - A mechanical relay often has a very wide tolerance for proper
operation.

BTW, I mentioned the FET because I thought you were fairly new to
electronics(?), and did not want to get bogged down in a discussion of
transistor biasing. (Plus I had no idea what your were going to drive
it with...) If you are unfamiliar with transistor switching circuits,
driving a relay with a 2N2222 is a classic lesson. You will find many
such schematics on the web.

A FET comes in 4 flavors. Enhancement and Depletion Mode, and N- and
P-types.
These refer to whether you want to "enhance" or "deplete" a conduction
channel.
(When a conduction channel is depleted of charge carriers, no current
can flow.)
The N and P refer to polarity, similar to standard transistors.
N-Channel enhancement types are proably the most commonly used.

Anyway, I wanted to mention that FET's have a small insulating layer
on the Gate that prevents current. (Actually, a tiny, tiny, fraction
will flow, but you can completely ignore this most of the time and
just focus on the voltage present at the Gate.) So, your "drive"
current into a FET is going to be negligible most of the time.

As for my 2N7000 suggestion, see #5, above.
-mpm
 
M

Matt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
That's easy. Just add a zener diode in series withe usual 'clamp diode'. No need to
calculate hold-off voltages.

Graham

Not sure what design you are proposing ...

I think you're saying I could go without a regulator as such and still
get both 5V regulation and transient suppression at the relay coil. I
think that means the zener would be bleeding off excess voltage whenever
the relay was on. The current through the transformer would increase
until its voltage dropped to a value determined by the zener. And
still there is the requirement that the MCU supply be kept under 5.5V.

Not sure, but I expect you couldn't put in a zener and a clamp diode for
less than this:

Digikey SMBJ5.0CA-E3/1GI-ND $0.26 quantity 1
TVS 600W 5V BIDIRECT SMB Vishay/General Semiconductor
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=6624&Row=1096484&Site=US
http://www.vishay.com/docs/88392/smbj.pdf

Digikey SMBJ5.0CA-E3/52GITR-ND SMBJ5.0CA-E3/52, $0.113 in quantity 750
TVS BIDIRECT 600W 5V 5% SMB Vishay/General Semiconductor
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Matt said:
calculate hold-off voltages.


Not sure what design you are proposing ...

I think you're saying I could go without a regulator as such

I said no such thing.

and still get both 5V regulation and transient suppression at the relay coil.

Uh ?

I think that means the zener would be bleeding off excess voltage whenever
the relay was on.

No. Don't you even know what the usual clamp diode is / does ? I *did not* suggest
fitting a zener across the coil which is the only way it would draw any power under
normal operation.

The current through the transformer would increase
until its voltage dropped to a value determined by the zener. And
still there is the requirement that the MCU supply be kept under 5.5V.

You've gone barking mad.

Graham
 
M

Matt

Jan 1, 1970
0
The context was whit3rd's suggestion that voltage to the relay coil
could be left unregulated. Did you notice that? What followed was my
attempt to make sense of your comment about diodes and hold-off voltages
in that context.

Just what is easy? Using a zener and a clamp instead of a TVS? True,
but I don't know that it's important.
I said no such thing.



Uh ?



No. Don't you even know what the usual clamp diode is / does ?

I do know.
I *did not* suggest
fitting a zener across the coil which is the only way it would draw any power under
normal operation.

If the zener, the clamp diode, and the coil are together in series, with
the two cathodes tied together (or the two anodes tied together), and
the voltage is higher than stand-off, then the zener becomes a regulator
for the coil voltage and ...

read: until its voltage drops to a value determined by the stand-off
voltage of the zener.

What did you mean by "Just add a zener diode in series withe usual
'clamp diode'"?

I was not trying to say that using a zener as a coil-voltage regulator
(other than as a TVS) would be a good design. I thought maybe you were.
It looks like the disadvantages would be 1) waste of power and 2) lack
of regulation for other parts of the device.

I'm planning this:
8V transformer
7805 to supply 5V to the whole device
low-resistance FET to switch the relay
bidirecional TVS across the relay coil
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Correctly assumed is that the primary protection system - grounded
telephone pole - will only take a majority of that current surge.
Note the word current because surges are current mode events - not
voltage. Many decades ago were studies on how this current may also
be distributed to the home. For simplicity while remaining consistent
with that study, we will use a 30% of the current flows into the
house.

But then that is why the home must have secondary protection - also
a single point earth ground. And since the current spreads more like
tree root, that is why the ground must be single point - all utilities
make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to that common earthing.

Single point ground can be many things. For example, for most
residential service in normally conductive soils, a single ground rod
will provide massive protection improvement. In some locations (ie
sandy soil or 911 emergency response centers), we want that to be even
better. So we use better techniques such as Ufer grounds or halo
grounds. Had proper earthing been installed in the building where a
man was working with machinery, then he would not have been harmed.
So what is good earthing? What is considered good to the electrician
may be woefully insufficient for what we know consider necessary even
for residential surge protection.

Every wire on that utility pole may be carrying the surge.
Electrician only must ground on of the three wires. That is
sufficient for his human safety requirements. But that means almost
no surge protection. All three wires must connect to that same
earthing point and must make that connection very short (ie 'less than
10 feet, no sharp wire bends, no splices, etc)

How do we earth 'less than 10 feet' those other wires? 'Whole
house' protectors that can perform the job even sell in Lowes and Home
Depot for less than $50. A protector is not protection. Anyone
promoting the protector as protection - run. He has no a clue. The
protector is only what connects those other two AC electric wires
('less than 10 feet') to single point earthing.

Now protection found inside every appliance should not be
overwhelmed.

Again, we are not talking about 1 million volts. Lightning
strikes a church steeple might have created even 50,000 volts - only
because voltage increases when necessary to maintain a current flow.
How did Ben Franklin protect that church? He simply gave lightning a
better earth ground via a lightning rod. What protects that church?
The earth ground. What does the lightning do it now send same
current to earth ground - but maybe 1000 volts between lightning rod
and earth. Now that same lightning strike that may have been 50,000
volts from church steeple to earth is 1000 volts because the
connection to earthing is superior and non-destructive.

Protection means earthing any surge AND the connection to earth (ie
surge protector) remains functional - is not destroyed.

Yes, the surge branches out from its earthed electrode because that
current may then travel many more miles through earth. This is why
barns (properly constructed) also must have an earthing system that
surrounds the ground. A four legged animal being at more risk than
the machine operator.

Household electronics already contain any protection that would work
adjacent to the appliance. Protection that may be overwhelmed if a
building's earthing system is insufficient. Each layer of protection
is defined by its earthing connection. Primary protection installed
at the utility transformer. Secondary protection (which includes the
telco 'provided for free' protector) is installed where all utilities
meet to enter the house.
 
M

mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Again, most of this is wrong.

There are single point grounds, and there are multi-point grounds.
There are benefits and drawbacks to both systems, and I'm not getting
into them here until we correct a few misconceptions first.

1 - WHEN LIGHTING STRIKES, THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT FAULT CURRENT
FLOWING IN THE EARTH. ANY CONDUCTOR LOCATED IN THAT EARTH WILL
DEVELOP A CHARGE. THE MAGNITUDE OF THE POTENTIAL IS DEPENDANT ON MANY
THINGS - NOT ALL OF THEM KNOWABLE IN ADVANCE.

Period. End of story.

2 - JUST LIKE HOUSE CURRENT, LIGHTNING SUFFERS FROM SIGNIFICANT SKIN
EFFECT LOSSES.

Therefore, you are always better off to use thin copper sheets (or
copper braiding) for grounding, rather than big honkin' ground rods.
Only the surface-area of the rod conducts, and it exhibits a great
deal of inductance at VHF (which is what lightning mostly is.) So,
worthless. (or at least, never as good as you might expect / hope. :
( ...Unless you can't properly solder copper flashing, then you're
usually better off with a ground rod and a clamp.

3 - THE CURRENT IS TREMENDOUS. It will conduct across air, just as
easy as copper.
It depends on where the leader, or M-return strokes, have been
established before the lightning actually struck. (You can use a Boys
Camera to test this theory, if you are so inclined...) So, if the pre-
strike ionized path did not happen to include a nice conductive path
to your ground system(s) (i.e., rods, halo, X-it Rods, whatever...)
you are S-O-L. A typical strike averages approx 20,000 to 40,000
Amps. Individual strikes can be MUCH larger.

4 - EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE "GROUND" WHEN YOU ARE CHARGED TO THAT
POTENTIAL.

5 - GROUND RODS AT HOUSES ARE THERE PRIMARILY TO CLEAR FAULTS (i.e.,
to ensure that a fuse or circuit breaker trips quickly!) THEY ARE NOT
THERE FOR LIGHTING PROTECTION PER SE, BUT BECAUSE THEY REPRESENT A LOW
CURRENT PATH TO "GROUND", THEY CAN BE QUITE EFFECTIVE.

6 - The NEC says drive 1 ground rod. If < 25 ohms cannot be
established with 1 rod, drive ONE more rod at least (x)-feet away. I
don't recall how far?, but it's like 6 to 10 feet. Just enough so
that the "earth" it "sees" is different "earth" from what the other
rod "sees". Now, no matter what the dual-rod connection is reading,
EVEN IF IT IS 200-OHMS!, it meets NEC Code!!!! - And that means
you're either at the beach with crap sandy soil, or on a volcano with
lava rock, or maybe trying to gound to solid rock. Note: You really
should drive some more ground rods, or switch to a different method of
grounding, even though the NEC does not require you to do so, and even
if the building inspector says you're good....

In either of these situations, you could try Bentonite, or salted
rods, or both.
You could trench out long radials of copper flashing and cover them
with salted soils, etc...
50-50 Flake Calcium Carbonate and Rock Salt works wonders by the
way,and much easier to get than Copper Sulfate. (But neither of them
are particularly good for the grass for all you do-it-yourself
homeowners out there!!) Plus its gets quite hot as it is an
exothermic reaction. Wear PPE.

As for Halo ground systems, these are usually (effectively) multi-
point grounds, and the idea is to reduce the path length to ground,
and try to maintain the same potential when the ground does elevate.
The inductance effectively limits a discharge path, so you get the
idea why some folks use them. I find the problem with them is that it
is (expensive) and next to impossible to keep this grounding separate
from the Neutral coming in to the structure. The famous Motorola
"R-56 Standard" was notorious for violating this, but I guess they
were more concerned about radio transmitter antenna / lightning issues
than compliance with Code.

As we all know (because we are all NEC experts here), you MUST not
bond the neutral to ground past the service entrance (main breaker in
most situations) becuase doing so creates a lethal ground fault
condition IF the Neutral to the building ever gets disconnected or
damaged. All the conduits - which should be at ground potential -
would then be carrying current.

And if lighting struck in that situation..... Good luck!!!
I would not endorse a design that sacraficed personnel protection for
equipment protection.
When this is done, I believe other engineering controls are prudent to
protect against bodily harm, such as a prohibition against working
during electrical storms, etc....

Oh, I forgot one. Separately derived grounds (such as one building
feeding another) can have
"common earthing" much greater than 10 feet. "common earthing" is a
made up term anyway, so one can say whatever they want about that....
It is meaningless.

Another one. The guy who got injured --.
The equipment DOES NOT MATTER!. He could have been standing with his
feet apart. Lighting strikes nearby, and a current starts to flow in
the Earth. Now, Earth, like everything else, has resistance. By ohms
law, there can be a SIGNIFICANT potential between the person's two
feet. The right foot could be at 1000 Volts potential, and the left
at 5,000 Volts. The difference is enough to cause electrocution
irrespective of the location (or even existence) of the machinery!!
It is also possible a current path to/through the equipment occured;
we just don't know.

You can sum up the "valid" portions of Tom's reply thusly:
Each level of protection tends to peel off some of the energy of the
stroke. With enough suitable protection, the remaining energy can be
brought down to a level where (hopefully), gizmos and people can live
peacefully. Unfortunately, as we know, this is not always the case,
even with well engineered ground systems - single point or
otherwise.

(Not talking about Faraday cages here, which is a special case.)
Also not talking about ball lightning, which again is a special case.

-mpm
 
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