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Question for Rick Massey & Bob Masta

R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
phase differences?


Thanks,

Radium
 
W

Wes

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you are really interested in this subject (aside from trolling because
you are lonely), I would suggest going down to the library and get a book on
the elements of sound. Or Google it.

Stereo really has nothing to do with it. FM synths have nothing to do with
it. Creative Music Synth has nothing to do with it. You need to investigate
the phenomenon of sound.

Why does sound change when you turn your head? Why does sound change when
you move about? Why does sound change as it is moving toward and away from
you?

Becoming educated with how sound works will help you with creating sounds
and using existing sounds. Of course, you can also use it to continue your
endless trolling.

Wes Taggart
Analogics
http://www.analogics.org/
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you are really interested in this subject (aside from trolling because
you are lonely), I would suggest going down to the library and get a book on
the elements of sound. Or Google it.

Stereo really has nothing to do with it. FM synths have nothing to do with
it. Creative Music Synth has nothing to do with it. You need to investigate
the phenomenon of sound.

Why does sound change when you turn your head? Why does sound change when
you move about? Why does sound change as it is moving toward and away from
you?

Becoming educated with how sound works will help you with creating sounds
and using existing sounds. Of course, you can also use it to continue your
endless trolling.

Wes, those changes I describe when passing CMS's audio signals through
a voice-canceller would *not* occur if CMS were a mono synth.

Try playing an old old song from the 40's -- recorded in mono --
through a voice-canceller. You'll hear nothing. The CD containg the
song maybe stereo but since the original is monaural and no stereo
sound has been added, hence, the voice-canceller will cause the entire
signal to be lost, since both the left and right channels are
identical.

So, yes, the *stereo-ness* of CMS has everything to do with this.
Otherwise, I wouldn't hear anything if I passed CMS's audio through
the voice-canceller.
 
W

Wes

Jan 1, 1970
0
Since you conveniently clipped the question (I can only presume
purposefully), I will include it here:
"Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
phase differences?"

Where does it mention a voice canceller applied to a mono signal?

A mono signal played through stereo speakers will have exhibit phase
cancellation and boosts depending where you are in the room, type of room,
reflections, etc... Harmonics can do the same thing. Intonation can do the
same thing.

The phenomenon that you would like us all to believe you are interested in,
based by your question, is about how sound works. Your response was not
unexpected, given the trolling behavior you have demonstrated over the
years.

Wes Taggart
Analogics
http://www.analogics.org/
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
A mono signal played through stereo speakers will have exhibit phase
cancellation and boosts depending where you are in the room, type of room,
reflections, etc... Harmonics can do the same thing. Intonation can do the
same thing.

Maybe so, but none of those phase cancellations/boosts occur to the
extent that CMS does when played through the voice-canceller. I notice
the audio of Creative Music Synth is equally-loud and equal-pitched
whether or not its played through the voice cancellor. Its the
*waveshapes* that are different.

Yes, if you play a mono signal through a voice-canceller, connect it
to a powerful amp and fully turn up the volume dial, you will hear
some of signal but it will be barely loud enough to hear. That because
of the *extremely* minute phase cancellations/boosts occuring in the L
and R through which the originally-monaural signal is played through.
But once again, the sound will not be NEARLY as loud as it would get
when you turn off the voice-canceller. Understand?????????

So its obvious that CMS's audio signal have certain elements [the
freshness, warmth and brightness] of their L and R signals phased
differently from each while certain other elements [cheeziness,
whininess, moaning] phase identically in the L and R channels. This
occurs in CMS much in the same way that many of the stereo hits from
the 80s onwards, have their lead-vocals, bass, and drums phased-
identically while their painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are phase-
differently.

If I pass CMS audio signal through a voice-canceller, the cheeziness,
whininess, and moaning disappear while the freshness, warmth and
brightness is amplified -- much in the same manner (and extent) that
when you play pop music [such as songs by Green Day, Phil Collins,
Rush, Bruce Hornsby, etc.] through a voice-canceller, the lead-vocals,
bass, and drums disappear while painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are
amplified.

I am fully-aware that an originally-mono signal maybe slight heard on
a voice-canceller if it is first split into L and R stereo channels.
This is because *any* stereo signal will have *some* -- and in this
case, obviously, a trivial and negligible -- amount of phase
differences between the L and R channels even if the original signal
was completely monaural. This clearly does not apply to the difference
in the way CMS sounds when passed through the voice-canceller vs. when
it isn't.

Now back to my original question:

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
phase differences??????????????????????????????????????????????
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
phase differences??????????????????????????????????????????????

CORRECTION, I should have asked:

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are *significantly* not
in phase with each other [and whose differently-phased L & R signals
are equally loud as its identically-phased L & R signals] even if the
designer didn't specifically intend for those phase differences?
 
W

Wes

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe you should investigate what a voice canceller does. Again, this goes
back to what sound is and its properties.

Are you under the delusion that the CMS has some property that is totally
different than any other sound generator in existence?

Have you investigated what is a stereo sound image? So you have a horn sound
in stereo on your $8 soundcard. What makes it stereo?

Wes Taggart
Analogics
http://www.analogics.org/

Radium said:
A mono signal played through stereo speakers will have exhibit phase
cancellation and boosts depending where you are in the room, type of
room,
reflections, etc... Harmonics can do the same thing. Intonation can do
the
same thing.

Maybe so, but none of those phase cancellations/boosts occur to the
extent that CMS does when played through the voice-canceller. I notice
the audio of Creative Music Synth is equally-loud and equal-pitched
whether or not its played through the voice cancellor. Its the
*waveshapes* that are different.

Yes, if you play a mono signal through a voice-canceller, connect it
to a powerful amp and fully turn up the volume dial, you will hear
some of signal but it will be barely loud enough to hear. That because
of the *extremely* minute phase cancellations/boosts occuring in the L
and R through which the originally-monaural signal is played through.
But once again, the sound will not be NEARLY as loud as it would get
when you turn off the voice-canceller. Understand?????????

So its obvious that CMS's audio signal have certain elements [the
freshness, warmth and brightness] of their L and R signals phased
differently from each while certain other elements [cheeziness,
whininess, moaning] phase identically in the L and R channels. This
occurs in CMS much in the same way that many of the stereo hits from
the 80s onwards, have their lead-vocals, bass, and drums phased-
identically while their painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are phase-
differently.

If I pass CMS audio signal through a voice-canceller, the cheeziness,
whininess, and moaning disappear while the freshness, warmth and
brightness is amplified -- much in the same manner (and extent) that
when you play pop music [such as songs by Green Day, Phil Collins,
Rush, Bruce Hornsby, etc.] through a voice-canceller, the lead-vocals,
bass, and drums disappear while painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are
amplified.

I am fully-aware that an originally-mono signal maybe slight heard on
a voice-canceller if it is first split into L and R stereo channels.
This is because *any* stereo signal will have *some* -- and in this
case, obviously, a trivial and negligible -- amount of phase
differences between the L and R channels even if the original signal
was completely monaural. This clearly does not apply to the difference
in the way CMS sounds when passed through the voice-canceller vs. when
it isn't.

Now back to my original question:

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
phase differences??????????????????????????????????????????????
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe you should investigate what a voice canceller does.

Well, duh, it inverts the phase of one stereo channel [L or R] while
leaving the phase of the other channel unaffected. It then combines
the two channels together to make a mono signal of the audio without
what *was* phased-identically prior to phase-inversion.
Are you under the delusion that the CMS has some property that is totally
different than any other sound generator in existence?

Not at all. Why does it seem so?
Have you investigated what is a stereo sound image?

The audio signals' whose phases are noticeably-different for the L and
R channels.

In pop music, the painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are usually in the
stereo sound image.
So you have a horn sound
in stereo on your $8 soundcard.
Yes.

What makes it stereo?

Stereo = 2 channels.

Now back to my question.

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are *significantly* not
in phase with each other [and whose differently-phased L & R signals
are equally loud as its identically-phased L & R signals] even if the
designer didn't specifically intend for those phase differences?
 
W

Wes

Jan 1, 1970
0
You have provided answers about your understanding of this subject far
beyond what you know.

One hint. Stereo does not equal 2 channels. Your simplistic understanding of
this is the root of the matter.

Wes Taggart
Analogics
http://www.analogics.org/

Radium said:
Maybe you should investigate what a voice canceller does.

Well, duh, it inverts the phase of one stereo channel [L or R] while
leaving the phase of the other channel unaffected. It then combines
the two channels together to make a mono signal of the audio without
what *was* phased-identically prior to phase-inversion.
Are you under the delusion that the CMS has some property that is totally
different than any other sound generator in existence?

Not at all. Why does it seem so?
Have you investigated what is a stereo sound image?

The audio signals' whose phases are noticeably-different for the L and
R channels.

In pop music, the painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are usually in the
stereo sound image.
So you have a horn sound
in stereo on your $8 soundcard.
Yes.

What makes it stereo?

Stereo = 2 channels.

Now back to my question.

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are *significantly* not
in phase with each other [and whose differently-phased L & R signals
are equally loud as its identically-phased L & R signals] even if the
designer didn't specifically intend for those phase differences?
 
E

Ed Edelenbos

Jan 1, 1970
0
And my reply is:

Wes, why bother? And can you remove rmm.synth from the crosspost list?
This thread is getting pretty monotonous and tiresome.

Ed
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
can you remove rmm.synth from the crosspost list?

Yeah, but the problem is, Rick Massey -- an expert on FM synths --
does not frequent any NG other than rec.music.makers.synth and my
question was directed toward him. Sorry for the inconvenience.
 
Y

Yoda

Jan 1, 1970
0
You have provided answers about your understanding of this subject far
beyond what you know.

One hint. Stereo does not equal 2 channels. Your simplistic understanding of
this is the root of the matter.

Wes Taggart
Analogics
http://www.analogics.org/

Wes, will you PLEASE stop replying to this moron? You're just dragging
yourself down to his level. This guy has proved beyond a doubt time
after time that he's autistic or something, maybe aspbergers. You're
repeated responses are starting to look the same.
 
B

Bob

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radium said:
I've been diagnosed with Asperger's

Trolling for attention is a known cause of Asperger's disorder. Get yourself
a girlfriend and you'll be just fine.

Bob
 
B

Bob Masta

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
phase differences?

You haven't yet established that the phenomenon you describe
is related to the synth and not the voice canceller. Try feeding
only *one* channel from the synth to *both* channels of the
voice canceller. If you hear nothing, then the phase difference
was indeed due to the synth. But voice cancellers often have
(adjustable) R-L phase shift.

If the phase difference is coming from the synth, I suspect it is not
due to any deliberate design feature, but rather an artifact of the
way they do things. For example, there may be only one processor
in the chip that computes L and R samples at different times, so
when they are fed to their respective DACs they are slightly out of
phase.

Best regards,




Bob Masta

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!
 
Maybe you should investigate what a voice canceller does. Again, this goes
back to what sound is and its properties.

Are you under the delusion that the CMS has some property that is totally
different than any other sound generator in existence?

Have you investigated what is a stereo sound image? So you have a horn sound
in stereo on your $8 soundcard. What makes it stereo?

Wes, I think he's trying to phase cancel himself out into another
dimension.
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
Try feeding
only *one* channel from the synth to *both* channels of the
voice canceller.

I've done this before.
If you hear nothing, then the phase difference
was indeed due to the synth.

Yup. I get nothing if I feed only one channel from the CMS to both
channels of the voice-canceller.

I've been trying very hard to explain this to poster like "Wes".
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yup. I get nothing if I feed only one channel from the CMS to both
channels of the voice-canceller.

I've been trying very hard to explain this to poster like "Wes".

I can also get a similar effect by using a Wave editing software
called Wavelab. I do the following:

1. Record audio from the MIDI [within the computer itself*] into a
44.1 Khz, 16-bit, stereo Wave file.

2. After I have completed recording the MIDI song, I invert the phase
of one of the channels [left or right]

3. I then convert this file to mono.

Voila! My favorite effect!!!!

NOTE: My soundcard allows me to directly record audio from the FM
synth into a wave file, so not external equipment is necessary.

Both Creative Music Synth and "SB16 Wave In" are at I/O address 220.
 
R

Rick Massey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Both Creative Music Synth and "SB16 Wave In" are at I/O address 220.

Totally irrelevant data. The I/O address has no bearing on anything in this,
and should be dropped from future discussions here as noise in the signal.
 
R

Richard Crowley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Totally irrelevant data. The I/O address has no bearing on anything in
this, and should be dropped from future discussions here as noise in
the signal.

Dropping totally irrelevant data may put quite a crimp in
"Radium"s newsgroup activity. :)
 
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