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Question for Rick Massey & Bob Masta

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Radium, Mar 9, 2007.

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  1. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Hi:

    Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
    naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
    each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
    phase differences?


    Thanks,

    Radium
     
  2. Wes

    Wes Guest

    If you are really interested in this subject (aside from trolling because
    you are lonely), I would suggest going down to the library and get a book on
    the elements of sound. Or Google it.

    Stereo really has nothing to do with it. FM synths have nothing to do with
    it. Creative Music Synth has nothing to do with it. You need to investigate
    the phenomenon of sound.

    Why does sound change when you turn your head? Why does sound change when
    you move about? Why does sound change as it is moving toward and away from
    you?

    Becoming educated with how sound works will help you with creating sounds
    and using existing sounds. Of course, you can also use it to continue your
    endless trolling.

    Wes Taggart
    Analogics
    http://www.analogics.org/
     
  3. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Wes, those changes I describe when passing CMS's audio signals through
    a voice-canceller would *not* occur if CMS were a mono synth.

    Try playing an old old song from the 40's -- recorded in mono --
    through a voice-canceller. You'll hear nothing. The CD containg the
    song maybe stereo but since the original is monaural and no stereo
    sound has been added, hence, the voice-canceller will cause the entire
    signal to be lost, since both the left and right channels are
    identical.

    So, yes, the *stereo-ness* of CMS has everything to do with this.
    Otherwise, I wouldn't hear anything if I passed CMS's audio through
    the voice-canceller.
     
  4. Wes

    Wes Guest

    Since you conveniently clipped the question (I can only presume
    purposefully), I will include it here:
    "Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
    naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
    each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
    phase differences?"

    Where does it mention a voice canceller applied to a mono signal?

    A mono signal played through stereo speakers will have exhibit phase
    cancellation and boosts depending where you are in the room, type of room,
    reflections, etc... Harmonics can do the same thing. Intonation can do the
    same thing.

    The phenomenon that you would like us all to believe you are interested in,
    based by your question, is about how sound works. Your response was not
    unexpected, given the trolling behavior you have demonstrated over the
    years.

    Wes Taggart
    Analogics
    http://www.analogics.org/
     
  5. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Maybe so, but none of those phase cancellations/boosts occur to the
    extent that CMS does when played through the voice-canceller. I notice
    the audio of Creative Music Synth is equally-loud and equal-pitched
    whether or not its played through the voice cancellor. Its the
    *waveshapes* that are different.

    Yes, if you play a mono signal through a voice-canceller, connect it
    to a powerful amp and fully turn up the volume dial, you will hear
    some of signal but it will be barely loud enough to hear. That because
    of the *extremely* minute phase cancellations/boosts occuring in the L
    and R through which the originally-monaural signal is played through.
    But once again, the sound will not be NEARLY as loud as it would get
    when you turn off the voice-canceller. Understand?????????

    So its obvious that CMS's audio signal have certain elements [the
    freshness, warmth and brightness] of their L and R signals phased
    differently from each while certain other elements [cheeziness,
    whininess, moaning] phase identically in the L and R channels. This
    occurs in CMS much in the same way that many of the stereo hits from
    the 80s onwards, have their lead-vocals, bass, and drums phased-
    identically while their painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are phase-
    differently.

    If I pass CMS audio signal through a voice-canceller, the cheeziness,
    whininess, and moaning disappear while the freshness, warmth and
    brightness is amplified -- much in the same manner (and extent) that
    when you play pop music [such as songs by Green Day, Phil Collins,
    Rush, Bruce Hornsby, etc.] through a voice-canceller, the lead-vocals,
    bass, and drums disappear while painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are
    amplified.

    I am fully-aware that an originally-mono signal maybe slight heard on
    a voice-canceller if it is first split into L and R stereo channels.
    This is because *any* stereo signal will have *some* -- and in this
    case, obviously, a trivial and negligible -- amount of phase
    differences between the L and R channels even if the original signal
    was completely monaural. This clearly does not apply to the difference
    in the way CMS sounds when passed through the voice-canceller vs. when
    it isn't.

    Now back to my original question:

    Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
    naturally produces left and right signals that are not in phase with
    each other even if the designer didn't specifically intend for those
    phase differences??????????????????????????????????????????????
     
  6. Radium

    Radium Guest

    CORRECTION, I should have asked:

    Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
    naturally produces left and right signals that are *significantly* not
    in phase with each other [and whose differently-phased L & R signals
    are equally loud as its identically-phased L & R signals] even if the
    designer didn't specifically intend for those phase differences?
     
  7. Wes

    Wes Guest

    Maybe you should investigate what a voice canceller does. Again, this goes
    back to what sound is and its properties.

    Are you under the delusion that the CMS has some property that is totally
    different than any other sound generator in existence?

    Have you investigated what is a stereo sound image? So you have a horn sound
    in stereo on your $8 soundcard. What makes it stereo?

    Wes Taggart
    Analogics
    http://www.analogics.org/

     
  8. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Well, duh, it inverts the phase of one stereo channel [L or R] while
    leaving the phase of the other channel unaffected. It then combines
    the two channels together to make a mono signal of the audio without
    what *was* phased-identically prior to phase-inversion.
    Not at all. Why does it seem so?
    The audio signals' whose phases are noticeably-different for the L and
    R channels.

    In pop music, the painos, guitars, pads, and chorus are usually in the
    stereo sound image.
    Stereo = 2 channels.

    Now back to my question.

    Is it true that a stereo FM synth -- like Creative Music Synth --
    naturally produces left and right signals that are *significantly* not
    in phase with each other [and whose differently-phased L & R signals
    are equally loud as its identically-phased L & R signals] even if the
    designer didn't specifically intend for those phase differences?
     
  9. Wes

    Wes Guest

    You have provided answers about your understanding of this subject far
    beyond what you know.

    One hint. Stereo does not equal 2 channels. Your simplistic understanding of
    this is the root of the matter.

    Wes Taggart
    Analogics
    http://www.analogics.org/

     
  10. Ed Edelenbos

    Ed Edelenbos Guest

    And my reply is:

    Wes, why bother? And can you remove rmm.synth from the crosspost list?
    This thread is getting pretty monotonous and tiresome.

    Ed
     
  11. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Yeah, but the problem is, Rick Massey -- an expert on FM synths --
    does not frequent any NG other than rec.music.makers.synth and my
    question was directed toward him. Sorry for the inconvenience.
     
  12. Yoda

    Yoda Guest

    Wes, will you PLEASE stop replying to this moron? You're just dragging
    yourself down to his level. This guy has proved beyond a doubt time
    after time that he's autistic or something, maybe aspbergers. You're
    repeated responses are starting to look the same.
     
  13. Radium

    Radium Guest

    I've been diagnosed with Asperger's
     
  14. Bob

    Bob Guest

    Trolling for attention is a known cause of Asperger's disorder. Get yourself
    a girlfriend and you'll be just fine.

    Bob
     
  15. Bob Masta

    Bob Masta Guest

    You haven't yet established that the phenomenon you describe
    is related to the synth and not the voice canceller. Try feeding
    only *one* channel from the synth to *both* channels of the
    voice canceller. If you hear nothing, then the phase difference
    was indeed due to the synth. But voice cancellers often have
    (adjustable) R-L phase shift.

    If the phase difference is coming from the synth, I suspect it is not
    due to any deliberate design feature, but rather an artifact of the
    way they do things. For example, there may be only one processor
    in the chip that computes L and R samples at different times, so
    when they are fed to their respective DACs they are slightly out of
    phase.

    Best regards,




    Bob Masta

    D A Q A R T A
    Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
    www.daqarta.com
    Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
    Science with your sound card!
     
  16. Guest

    Wes, I think he's trying to phase cancel himself out into another
    dimension.
     
  17. Radium

    Radium Guest

    I've done this before.
    Yup. I get nothing if I feed only one channel from the CMS to both
    channels of the voice-canceller.

    I've been trying very hard to explain this to poster like "Wes".
     
  18. Radium

    Radium Guest

    I can also get a similar effect by using a Wave editing software
    called Wavelab. I do the following:

    1. Record audio from the MIDI [within the computer itself*] into a
    44.1 Khz, 16-bit, stereo Wave file.

    2. After I have completed recording the MIDI song, I invert the phase
    of one of the channels [left or right]

    3. I then convert this file to mono.

    Voila! My favorite effect!!!!

    NOTE: My soundcard allows me to directly record audio from the FM
    synth into a wave file, so not external equipment is necessary.

    Both Creative Music Synth and "SB16 Wave In" are at I/O address 220.
     
  19. Rick Massey

    Rick Massey Guest

    Totally irrelevant data. The I/O address has no bearing on anything in this,
    and should be dropped from future discussions here as noise in the signal.
     
  20. Dropping totally irrelevant data may put quite a crimp in
    "Radium"s newsgroup activity. :)
     
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