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Motorcycle Flasher Issue

Discussion in 'Sensors and Actuators' started by gturbo7, Oct 27, 2012.

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  1. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    I don't see any problems with the relay idea, provided you don't need Headlight, tail lights, brake light etc.... when the blinker is on. If you are going to register it. Thats not going to go so well. It had Blinkers as standard, or it wouldn't have a compliance plate, and wouldn't be registrable. Which it does and is. You may have issues with LED anything passing a roadworthy. Not allowed as anything other than clearance lights here (australia). All the trucks have LED everything, to save fuel, But they get put of the road for it too. Same with bikes. A few mates have had to collect their pride and joy with a trailer or ute, due to police putting them off the road, on the spot. For LED brake light or blinker. ... Makes no sense to me. LEDs are better for anything that is not a headlight, and will be low beam capable anytime now. But the law's the law... Have you done your homework there?


    You might be able to keep all the electrics on, but its getting more complex pretty quick. Have you checked if it runs without the battery? Just because it's got a magneto, doesn't mean the spark with still go with battery out... You certainly wont kick start it with no battery, which could affect roadworthy again. What if you need to start it after a stall mid turn? In the middle of an intersection. There are mostly good reasons road rules are in place. To save your life. I have 2 bikes atm, because I had to sell 5 so I could get a smaller place. Belive me when I say you don't need to make your road experience any more dangerous...

    If you look at the diagram you posted, the turn signals are there... along with one of these... http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Kawasaki-Tur...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c684230cd&vxp=mtr

    Looks like the winker relay is required for the brake light too. Does that work atm?

    Why not just restore it as original? Seems like the logical thing to do. Probably cheaper than what you already spent too. get some globes and 2 spools of wire and have change from $30... Follow the diagram, and you should have working turn signals 20 min later... If I was licensed for roadworthys. There's no way I'd pass the relay thing... would be ok on a farm. but not for rego.

    See how posting all the relevant info can help... All I needed was year and model number.

    beautiful bike BTW Reminds me of my old TS185. I love restoring bikes like that. I have a 68/69 Bultaco Alpina 200 (which looks a lot like this 350) in the shed atm, Fully original. Needs lots of tlc.... I don't know If I will be able to sell it when done... Still rides well.
     
  2. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    Been a few post since I updated this tab

    Thats because the lights all work without the battery. Hard to tell what connects to what when the ignition is on with that circuit drawing. So I missed it. A common racing/bush mod would be to ditch the battery to save weight and make room for tools/spare parts. Battery is only there for compliance... And probably helps regulate headlight brightness. Did I mention how 70's magneto bike like to blow headlights? Well I remember why now. It's because everyone takes the battery out as soon as they get one home.. Who rode enduro at night in the 70's anyhow...


    Go get that flasher relay and all your problems are solved.
     
  3. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    Jun 6, 2012
    On another note. Have you tested the boost flasher circuit on 6v since connecting it to the running bike?

    Sounds like you blew something when you started the bike with it connected....
     
  4. CocaCola

    CocaCola

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    Apr 7, 2012
    I'm not following... If you simply sever the magneto to battery connection temporarily the only thing lost should be the 'charging' of the battery... Anything on the magneto side (shouldn't be anything like lights if wired like I would) will continue to run off the magneto and anything on the battery side will simply run off the battery... I'm not seeing why you would lose the entire light system when doing this, can you explain your reasoning?

    Fully dependent on the location... In the US no one will even give you a second look for having LED bulbs in a bike, I switched out all my bulbs (except for the projector head lights to LEDs the first week I had my Buell... The wonderful V-Twin vibration was taking out my tail light faster than fast...

    As you said best to do your homework on your locality...

    This is fully dependent upon the bikes design, many old kick start bikes don't have batteries and they run just fine... I have never had an off road bike that had a battery either, only the on/off road ones have batteries...

    Place in 2nd or 3rd gear and get a running push, dump the clutch, works fine on carb bikes... Been there and done that more times then I car to could over the years of riding... But, now with fuel injection, forget about it, you need the battery (or a sustained power source) to pressurize the fuel system and have the computer up and running if you are to have any hope of starting it...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  5. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    Yea i stuffed up here. Got my bike electrical systems confused. Happens when you work on lots. The bike runs fine with no battery in place. Same answer for:

    The 70's era enduros, as you say where road legal versions of the MXers in many cases. So they often just strapped on a battery and turn signals. Which a lot of owners promptly took straight off. I'd guess thats why this one is missing not just the globes, but the whole blinker circuit. I'd leave the wires in myself, in case I want to take it on the road again. Many owners want as much weight as possible off though and remove any non essential wire, which is a huge pain to fix! Especially with no wiring diagram. Blinkers are notoriously tricky. It has stopped many a bike from ever going back on the road again. Thats why I'd love to find a good aftermarket workaround..


    In the rain, at night, with no street lights and trucks doing 60mph? (Or whatever the max speed for a road with intersections, here it's 110kmph)

    I wasn't so much thinking about starting, as not getting killed...
     
  6. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    Re Harley v-twins and broken globes. Thats why people here often risk LED law problems. The incandescent's just die. Bueals are well known for that one. Guess why it came with an incandescent?... Because it's still law in a ton of places. Someone banned LED's in the 80's when they where too dull in full sun. Now they are brighter its really hard to get the law repealed...
     
  7. CocaCola

    CocaCola

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    Well of course you have to do it safely...

    I'm going to say in the end because it's cost effective... Yeah it's also more universally accepted by law, but if that was the only reason they could just swap out those for export... At least in the US LED lights are legal and many are DOT (US Department of Transportation) approved and stamped...
     
  8. gturbo7

    gturbo7

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    Oct 27, 2012
    Mongrel- There is nothing wrong with the boost converter, the whole turn signal circuit works just fine until the bike is running. BTW it does kick start with no battery and everything works including lights. LED lights are no problem here either, more and more new vehicles are coming with LED lights anyway. The initial reasoning for going with LED lights aside from having a very hard time finding anything 6v was to give my 41 year old magneto a better chance of surviving a little longer by keeping the extra load to a minimum. Also they are brighter than incandescent and faster responding. Anyway, seems like we've narrowed the problem down to spark noise so now I have to figure out how to isolate the circuit from that. So cast aluminum is a good blocker of noise I take it?
     
  9. CocaCola

    CocaCola

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    Apr 7, 2012
    Yes, conductive metal shielding is a good blocker of noise... Also the type of spark plug wire can play a big role, read the link in my previous post on that...
     
  10. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    Jun 6, 2012
    So if you take the battery out and have the bike running. Connect the flasher to the battery and see how far away you have to get for it to work? Will give you an idea how good a shielding you need to protect it from the RF its generating...

    I'd be going over the ignition system myself. something seems a miss there... Spark shouldn't cause that kind of interference. It will mess with other stuff too. Like the car next to you and its computer (maybe)...

    Do you know about running the bike in the dark and looking for "lightning" around the spark plug, lead, and coil. The frame can send sparks strange places to if the coil is bolted to it as it most likely is. Might be worth checking out the control box too. You'd rather find a problem now than later.
     
  11. gturbo7

    gturbo7

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    Oct 27, 2012
    I will try the distance test. I thought about replacing the spark plug wire but it looked like I would have to replace the ignition coil at the same time, as the wire goes inside the coil instead of just connecting to the outside of it like most cars. Finding a new coil for this bike would probably not be possible, maybe I could put an aftermarket coil or a more modern style from a newer bike or something?
     
  12. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    That will prove to be an exercise in futility. The wires are effectively antennae. The longer they are the more crap it's going to pick up. Worst yet, ground returns to the frame should be as short as possible.

    By the way, why do they call flashers "Winker Relays"? Winker I get but nothing about a bi-metal switch equates to a relay. "Winker Switch" is more apropos

    Chris
     
  13. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    If you can't replace the spark plug wires then look for carbon spark suppressor adapters. They connect in series with the spark wires. They're probably not as effective as carbon spark wires but they're better than nothing at all.


    Chris
     
  14. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    I'm not sure we understand each other? Which wires? I was suggesting having the flasher circuit attached to the battery (so really short wires) what wires are you suggesting would be an ant? Spark plug leads could be, but they really shouldn't on something registrable. Although being a 70's kwaka, it's possible. They did have strange electrical faults at times. Especially pre 75.

    I just find spark generated RF a bit hard to swallow. Not saying that's not it. Certainly needs to be tested. Thats why I suggest checking the range of the interference. Its a quick simple test that will reveal a lot if RF is suspected. My moneys on it not happening with the flasher and battery completly isolated from the bike. Although it's more plausible it could play up if you get really close, so its mostly just insulation separating the flash circuit and metal parts or wiring on bike. In which case it's induction more than RF. Perhaps a simple re rout of wires will do it. I have seen RF problems from coils before. That era they tend to be on the frame under the tank, with the loom going right past. Induction problems are much more common though. which can be solved with a re-rout and maybe a toroid choke or similar. Aluminum box seems like overkill on the extreme. If you cant fit a few AAA's on. No way your going to find room for a big box like that.

    There will almost certianly be an aftermarket one. Kawasaki may even still have some. Dirt bikes only started getting flash ignition systems fairly recently. many 90's bikes still had coils! even some post 2000 I think.

    The vintage guys all change their coils for newer kit. It's one of the few accepted update allowed by many clubs (have you tried contacting an F7 club? Bet they know something useful). Because it is less hard on the magneto, and save fuel and a host of other benifits... In some cases a modern spark driver can remove a bunch of electrical gremlins. I'd contact a club or enthusiast. They'll probably talk your ear off about the bike, not having met an owner from outside the clubs circle in ages... I was never into Kwakas much, and I'm pretty sure that model never came to aus, if it did it was called something else here. Never heard of F anything before this thread. I believe the KXR was the two stroke road legal one her in the 70's. They weren't very popular due to the weight.


    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turn-signal2.htm

    Its a thermal switch. I'd say it gets called relay, because most mechanics are flat out telling pos from neg. If it goes click click click, and switches stuff, it must be a relay...

    We call them flasher Cam's here in Aus. I never knew how they worked till now. All I know is dad's cars always have them hanging out under the dash, so he can perform percussive maintenance when they fail to flash every second time you try to signal a turn.. You can get another few years out of them that way. LOL! His brother would pull them apart and change the resistor (and sometimes add a cap? Don't know why) and get them going again...
     
  15. CocaCola

    CocaCola

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    EMI is likely the big concern, not RF... Read the link I posted, or Google some more on it... This 'spark' interference became a real issue as vehicles moved to ECMs... Or at least an issue that needed to be address further, and the type of wire used can make all the difference...

    It's cheap insurance, you need the stuff enclosed and the 'upgrade' cost for an aluminum box that will shield it is minimal... You could call it overkill I simply call it proactive insurance that alone might remedy the problem... ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  16. gturbo7

    gturbo7

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    Oct 27, 2012
    The coil is attached to the frame right under the gas tank and yes the harness goes right past it. I am also curious of the very thin, probably 26 or 28 gauge power leads that the leds came with that are running very close to the metal frame of the bike. My next step will be to detach the leds from the bike and take the wires away from the frame as much as possible and see if the problem persists.
     
  17. Mongrel Shark

    Mongrel Shark

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    I'm not sure what I was supposed to glean from that link. I've raced and restored a lot of bikes. Like I said. Rf is hard for me to swallow. I've heard people swear black and blue it's happening. But get 30cm away from the bike and it disappears.Indicating it's EMF induction. Which can be sorted a number of ways. Mainly by ditching the coils and leads for aftermarket kit, and or rerouting the effected circuit. It's a small dirt bike that already has space and weight problems. While the ally box will certainly provide some protection. if the wires leading into it go right past the coil, as the indicator switch wires tend to. it's not going to do a thing... It's a last ditch resort imo. As you have wires going in and out. Placement and type of wire is much more critical. Sometimes just switching core strand numbers (like from single core to multi strand) or cor material can be all that's required.

    Perhaps you might get something from my single wire wireless electricity repeater video.

    I can do much the same thing, but dimmer by just laying a wire over the top of the base station coil. I have even used a single wire to do the same thing inside my ally pressure cooker, which normally shields the receiver coils from a signal rather well.

    The EMF's transmitted from my coil wouldn't be hugely different from an ignition coil. I just made it transmit more. where in this case we want it to do it less. While I don't want to dismiss something I have not experianced. By saying RF is impossible. I have never been able to confirm its presence in pointless ignition system. I have seen AM/FM radio interference from points, but no points on this bike.) I have seen a few case of claimed rf that turned out to be magnetic induction though. Much more common.
     
  18. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    May 8, 2012
    Probably not. It Happens often on forums. Like you posting this link and explanation. I described it as a bi-metal switch. That should have been a clue that I know what they are. :rolleyes: Think rhetorical statement. ;)

    Chris
     
  19. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

    4,960
    648
    May 8, 2012
  20. CocaCola

    CocaCola

    3,635
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    Apr 7, 2012
    Well if you refuse to swallow what other have experienced and for all intents and purposes proven beyond a doubt to be real, there really isn't anything to be said that will convince you that it's real... But, for those that do accept the facts that there is real RF and EM interference from ignition systems and spark plug wires, a paragraph like this is a good overall primer of the issue that is likely at the core of many problems very similar to what the OP is experiencing...

     
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