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inert gas

G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Good point! But I still won't try to pass a chem test by claiming nitrogen
is one of the "inert gases". And I won't try to define "vacuum" without
specifying (somehow) the pressure or density or parts per (insert volume
measurement here). And when someone calls me a "troll" I will take that as
an absurd statement that nowadays just means "This is MY internet, and I
don't want you using it!". AND (in conclusion)(finally) when someone resorts
to babbling made up words (like "fuckwit") I WILL decide that they have
nothing to say, and I will go on to more profitable interchanges.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
What kind of inert gas is typically in a lightbulb?

Usually a mixture of argon and nitrogen, more argon than nitrogen. I
have seen a cite or two indicating a common mixture to be 93% argon 7%
nitrogen.
Argon is preferable due to lower heat conductivity, while nitrogen
impairs formation of destructive arcs across the filament.
What happens if you let it out and operate the lightbulb without it?

In air, the filament will oxidize very rapidly, to the point of complete
failure in usually a few to several seconds.

In a vacuum, the filament evaporates more quickly, although heat
conduction from a gas is eliminated. A gas slows down evaporation of the
filament because gas atoms bounce most evaporated tungsten atoms back
towards the filament. A gas permits a higher filament temperature by
slowing evaporation. A higher filament temperature achieves a higher
percentage (although still a minority) of the filament's radiation being
visible rather than infrared.

Some filament designs have higher energy efficiency when operated at
reduced temperature in a vacuum. If the filament is a low current design
dissipating less than *roughly* 10 watts per centimeter of apparently
visible filament length (as a "rough rule" as far as I have seen), then
you get better "overall luminous efficacy" (lumens of light out per watt
in) with a vacuum and lower filament temperature than with argon-nitrogen
mixture and higher temperature.

I have seen pure argon in a very few low voltage lamps. Even in low
voltage lamps where nitrogen is not necessary to block arc formation, it
appears to me that the compromise of 93% argon 7% nitrogen compared to
pure argon makes a difference small enough for many or most manufacturers
to prefer to not have to use two different gas formulations.

There are premium fill gases, mainly ones with argon or krypton. The
larger atoms of these heavier fill gases make them more effective than
argon at slowing filament evaporation. The heavier molecular weight
reduces heat conduction losses. These premium gases are widely mentioned
to be used in flashlight lamps, whose small size reduces the expense of
these premium gases.

I have seen 120V lamps (mostly some traffic signal ones) and some
automotive ones having a krypton-nitrogen mixture. Older GE "miser"
120V incandescents 60-100 watts made close to 1980 achieved a power
consumption decrease of 5 watts with essentially no compromise in life
expectancy or light output. (More recent GE "Misers" did not have krypton
and had compromised light output.) Some automotive lamps have life
claimed to be doubled with no significant compromise in light output nor
significant increase in power cosnumption as an achievement of using
krypton.

Flashlight lamps with premium fill gases producing 2.5-3 times the light
of "ordinary" ones also consume 1.5-1.75 times as much power, and in
addition benefit from a couple "economies of scale":

a) The thicker higher power filament takes longer to be destroyed by
evaportion and can be operated at a higher temperature.

b) Percentage of input power being heat conduction loss by fill gas
decreases with thicker filaments. Reason: As filament diameter
increases, the "boundary layer" of hot gas between the filament and the
surrounding cooler gas gets thicker and its temperature gradient
decreases. As a result, heat conduction loss per unit length of
visibly apparent filament increases less than proportionately (often
hardly at all) as filament diameter is increased.

Use of a premium fill gas usually achieves a 5-25% increase in energy
efficiency if wattage, voltage and life expectancy are unchanged, with the
gains being bigger in lower wattage / lower current designs where the
efficiency of a given combination of voltage, wattage and design life
expectancy is less no matter what. (Ever notice the design life
expectancy of incandescent flashlight lamps - usually 10-30 hours?)

Halogen lamps have an inert gas (argon, krypton or xenon) plus a trace
of a halogen - traditionally iodine - but maybe in some cases a halide.

The main benefit of halogen is keeping the inside surface of the bulb
clean. Life extension from returning of evaporated tungsten to the
filament is disappointingly small because the "halogen cycle" is not good
at depositing returned tungsten to where it is most needed.

However, halogen lamps often have significant improvement in efficiency
and/or life expectancy over non-halogen ones for a couple other reasons:

1. The bulb or its "inner capsule" (in the case of ones with inner and
outer bulbs) is small and is usually made of a higher strength material
and has material thickness usually greater than usual for non-halogen
bulbs of similar size. That permits much higher fill gas pressure, which
reduces filament evaporation more.

2. The small size of this bulb or "inner capsule" increases the economic
feasibility of use of premium inert main ingredient of the fill gas.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
** Nitrogen - at about 0.5 normal atmospheric pressure.

You got the room temperature pressure correct, but the usual mixture is
one of argon and nitrogen with more argon.
** A plain vacuum bulb has a very short life as the glass envelope soon
blackens up.

Keep in mind that depending on filament/lamp design (especially in terms
of power input per unit length of apparently visible filament) it can be
preferable to use a vacuum and operate the filament at a lower
temperature.

Among 120V lamps, a very few specialized 60-watters, some but not most
common 40-watters, some 25-watters and most to all 25 watts or less have a
vacuum and are supposed to have one.

Also, many low voltage lamps designed for .3 amps or less and most
designed for less than .2-.25 amp have a vacuum.
I once tested few 12 volt bulbs where the Asian maker had failed to put in
any - only took a few hours to go all back.

I checked out an unused sample by submerging it in a glass of water and
then crushing the envelope with a pair of pliers.

Result - not one bubble emerged.

Try that with a small bulb yourself.

There are some non-defective ones with a vacuum and that last thousands
of hours - although energy efficiency is low (and not improved by gas fill
due to heat conduction loss) and the color is more orangish-yellowish,
with color temperature being around or a little under 2500 Kelvin. Lower
current (60 mA or less) lower power indicator lamps designed to last
15,000 - 50,000 hour may have color close to that of a candle flame and
overall luminous efficacy 2-5 lumens per watt but they have a vacuum!
Example - every 120V lightbulb 15 watts or less that I have ever seen!
Go ahead and crush a 5,000 hour 4 watt 120V nightlight bulb under water
and see how much gas comes out!

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
I do want to mention that helium and neon and maybe argon have yet to be
known to undergo any chemical reaction. Although noble gases with
electronegativity less than that of fluorine have formed fluorides and
ones with electronegativity less than that of oxygen have formed oxides.

There are plenty of compounds of xenon, while neon has at best formed
claptrates (not chemical compounds so much as making neon atoms fit into
spaces in molecular or crystal structure).

<SNIP remaining previously quoted material>

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
What about normal sized household light bulbs. They usually have rated
lives of 750 hours to 1000 hours or so, for all wattage ratings. Since you
said that a plain vacuum bulb has a very short life, that would imply that
household bulbs (of all wattage ratings) are always gas filled. Is that
so?

Usual 120V household lightbulbs 60 watts or more have a gas fill. Most
lower voltage lamps of wattage at least 2.25 watts and current at least
..48 amp have a gas fill. Most incandescent lamps designed for less than
..2 amp have a vacuum.

120V tubular "showcase" and "refrigerator" bulbs up to 40 watts with a
filament of length near or over 7 cm (close to 3 inches) have a vacuum.
So do 60 watt showcase lamps with filament length around/over 15 cm (6
inches).

120V lightbulbs 15 watts or less mainly to close to entirely contain a
vacuum, even if made by "Big 3" manufacturers in first world countries in
the 1970's or 1980's.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nitrogen-argon mixture, and I have seen a cite saying 93% argon 7%
nitrogen being the usual formulation.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Whadda you mean "works". Your schematic was a HIGHLY specialized little
gimmick, that even if it did "work" would only fit your needs (and only at
the present moment). No one but you would ever know if it was "working".
And what was that thing (named schematic) I posted supposed to do, that it
didn't do? And who is doing the supposing? I didn't make any claims for it.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
<[email protected]>

** This anonymous pile of ASD fucked sub human SHIT is a public menace.

Killfile or kill him

And you do not mention info as to subject line or similar other info
as to what threads or whatever or where-ever as to finding "tapwater"
even so much as to be your enemy, let alone ours?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Klipstein"



** This dumb as DOG SHIT cretyn needs killfiling too.







.......... Phil
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Lots of engineers consider N2 to be inert, because it is non-reactive
in many situations. It is often the gas of choice when an "inert
atmosphere" is required, because it is cheaper than the Noble Gases or
any other inert gas.

Don't automatically assume that the chemists have the definitive say in
these matters.

Mark



Xenon, krypton, argon, and radon are noble gasses, but are not always
inert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas_compound

John
 
R

redbelly

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Xenon, krypton, argon, and radon are noble gasses, but are not always
inert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas_compound

John

Yeah. What I'm taking from this whole thread are:

1. If you insist that a vacuum must contain no atoms (or other
particles) whatsoever, then vacuums do not exist ANYWHERE in the
universe. Not even in intergalactic space.

2. If you insist that an "inert" substance not react with
**anything**, then there are no inert substances.

If you want to talk about practical uses of vacuums and inert
substances, then you have to accept that a vacuum can contain some
atoms. And an "inert" substance can still react under the right
circumstances.

Mark

Oh, and one more thing. If you refer to things like nitrogen, without
specifying whether you mean single-atoms or N2 molecules, you shouldn't
expect others to read your mind and know which one you meant to say.

Sigh. Okay, I'll stop ranting now.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeah. What I'm taking from this whole thread are:

1. If you insist that a vacuum must contain no atoms (or other
particles) whatsoever, then vacuums do not exist ANYWHERE in the
universe. Not even in intergalactic space.

---
From my POV, the vacuum exists everywhere _except_ where there is
matter, which means that the huge majority of the volume of our
universe is The Vacuum. Kind of like a huge lacy Swiss cheese in
reverse, where the holes represent particles of matter and the
cheese represents the space between them.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thank you, I was indeed deliberately avoiding the difference between atomic
nitrogen and molecular nitrogen.
Molecular nitrogen NEVER reacts with ANYTHING!
Now I will go out on the front porch, and NOT breathe the nitrogen compounds
that are NEVER put out by the vehicles that NEVER pass my porch.
I humbly stand corrected.
Or I could get with the times and realize that technology is now routinely
creating temperatures and/or pressures sufficient to react molecular
nitrogen. Beer ain't just for breakfast anymore, and ammonia ain't just for
microbes anymore.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
I still won't try to pass a chem test by calling nitrogen an "inert gas" but
I would be willing to say that "nitrogen is relatively inert compared to
oxygen" (if I was allowed to use the whole phrase before someone jumped on
me).
 
R

R. Steve Walz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Aren't you the only person who would call Nitrogen an Inert Gas? I guess you
can't learn much from talking with dingoes in the Outback, so while you are
here you can look and learn.
-------------------
You're an ass!!
Nitrogen is used in light bulbs for that reason, asswipe.

It is an inert gas at most temperatures, and so called noble gases
are NOT, and can and do form compounds!

-Steve
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
R. Steve Walz said:
-------------------
You're an ass!!
Nitrogen is used in light bulbs for that reason, asswipe.

It is an inert gas at most temperatures, and so called noble gases
are NOT, and can and do form compounds!

-Steve


You're wasting your time on a low grade troll.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nitrogen is not an inert gas to chemists.
Nitrogen is not an inert gas to the EPA and the environmental activists
Nitrogen is not an inert gas to MIG and TIG welders.
I'm not going to post a complete list.
"Noble gas" compounds are rare, nitrogen compounds are common.
It gets hot inside a light bulb.
Yes I am an "asswipe", every morning I have to wipe you off my ass.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nitrogen is not an inert gas to chemists.


** Blatant LIE #1

Nitrogen is not an inert gas to the EPA and the environmental activists


** Blatant LIE #2

Nitrogen is not an inert gas to MIG and TIG welders.


** Blatant LIE #3

I'm not going to post a complete list.


** Blatant LIE # 4

Yes I am an "asswipe",


** At last - a single fact.

This fuckwit, dripping tap autistic POS needs a bullet in the heed.





........ Phil
 
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