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harnessing lightning, or not

W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...
You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
standards!

Yes indeed! My lightning answer, complete with photo and
calculations, is not yet a "good answer" because it didn't
get enough votes. Hmm, it did get one vote, was that from
you John? Thanks!
Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could
throw a neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every
40 years or so.

Aren't there serious problems with developing a high electric
field in water? I mean, above about 1V it wants to break apart
into H2 and O. And what about the electrode double layers?

I dunno, it'd need to be a tall 1MV / 100kA = 10-ohm resistor
with water cooling, or something. But if rated at a puny 1MV,
it wouldn't warm up much water, with only 1MJ of energy. Sigh.
We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.

Yes.
 
B

BlindBaby

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...

Yes indeed! My lightning answer, complete with photo and
calculations, is not yet a "good answer" because it didn't
get enough votes. Hmm, it did get one vote, was that from
you John? Thanks!


Aren't there serious problems with developing a high electric
field in water? I mean, above about 1V it wants to break apart
into H2 and O. And what about the electrode double layers?

I dunno, it'd need to be a tall 1MV / 100kA = 10-ohm resistor
with water cooling, or something. But if rated at a puny 1MV,
it wouldn't warm up much water, with only 1MJ of energy. Sigh.


Yes.


If it can make it from way up there all the way down to way down here,
it can certainly make it across any dielectric inside any cap, so you
guys are poking holes in the insulator layers to beat the band, in your
caps..

A cap to store SOME lightning strike energy would be about a 300' x
300' (or more) insulator plate of Delrin or Teflon, or an even thinner
plate of GLASS. The storage plate would have to be completely
encapsulated.

One ends up with a large, flat form factor Leyden jar.
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill said:
My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
with photo, at the CR4 forum.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837

lightning sounds like a good way to destroy some otherwise really
expensive and fun to play with capacitors. Plus, if you think you can get
those made for only $5000 each, you're in for a surprise.

Anyways, go for the quarter shrinker, it's lots of fun.

I'd try to of your caps in series, center tap grounded.

be very wary of hysteresis when shorting out those caps too. the residual
energy stored in them is quite unsafe and "builds" rather quickly. I use
multiple pieces of solid 12 guage wire across my energy storage caps, just
to make sure. There's really no room for mistakes with such monsters.

Even if you're a cowboy and don't care about safety, consider the next
person that touches them by accident after cleaning up your mess.

Lastly, the 50uS lightning strike number is pretty meaningless, as that
won't be the timing if you're trying to charge hundreds of thousands of uF
of capacitor before they fail and short out.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Do the math on that, please.

John

Lightning: Smallest bolts are like 6MV. They drop down from a mile in
the sky. They can surely make it across ANY two terminal device you
think you can come up with. Unless you are separating the nodes by over
a mile.

My cap would flash over as well, but more would remain stored than in
any of the scenarios discussed here thus far.

No math required.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hand waving. What you mean is that you can't do math. Which means you
can't design electronics.

John


You are wrong again, John.

And it is quite funny that this is the only 'hand' you have to wave.

It is also quite telling, however, that you wave it without any real
foundation whatsoever.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
What were these Maxwell capacitors originally built for?


Probably laser pulsers. There are only a handful of applications for
them.
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Jan 1, 1970
0
What sort of switch would be used there? When I was a kid, I used to
make banks of electrolytics (from old TV sets), charge them up, and
dump them into coils using, pretty much, just wire contacts. They
welded shut every shot. I could magnetize most anything.

John

http://205.243.100.155/frames/shrinkergallery.html


He has some how-to data there, IIRC.
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Jan 1, 1970
0
What sort of switch would be used there? When I was a kid, I used to
make banks of electrolytics (from old TV sets), charge them up, and
dump them into coils using, pretty much, just wire contacts. They
welded shut every shot. I could magnetize most anything.

John

http://205.243.100.155/frames/Newgap2a.jpg

I'll bet that he gets more than one cycle on his MTBF 'numbers'.
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oh. Brute force. I could have done something like that, operated by a
hammer maybe.

John

Mecury contactors ain't cheap, or small.
 
B

BlindBaby

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thyratrons


That is what the big boys use on the multi-Megavolt DC interties.

Stack of 'em in a 30' x 12' x 12' box suspended 90' in the air in a
VERY big room. They are like 7 inches in diameter and an inch thick (the
actual Thyratron medium).
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member newsguy.com> wrote:
....


Yup. Lightning is all show.

But seriously...

Lightning never strikes the same place twice, because the same
place isn't there the next time...
--
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
But seriously...

Lightning never strikes the same place twice, because the same
place isn't there the next time...

You're an idiot.

There is a reason why there is no longer a restaurant on top of Mt.
Evans. That reason is because it DOES strike in the same place again.

After the third fire they decided not to rebuild again. That
determination was made decades ago. Lightning was the reason.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Does lightning have a return strike? So perhaps the bolt would ring and
want to suck much of the energy captured back out again.

Grant.


It is typically a dumping of electrons INTO the Earth. They don't
bounce back. Not rubber biscuits.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Does lightning have a return strike? So perhaps the bolt would ring and
want to suck much of the energy captured back out again.

Grant.


Although the space shuttle has recorded lightning strokes which also
had an upward going 'sprite' that rose above the atmosphere (at least one
visible layer). They have recorded many, in fact.

I have seen ball lightning twice in my life. Maybe they are little
mini black holes...
 
B

BlindBaby

Jan 1, 1970
0
These stacked power switches for DC Interties are actually Thyristors...
modern optically-triggered SCR's. These replaced ignitrons in older
inverters.

Thyratrons are gas-filled electron tubes. Similar sounding but
completely different technologies.

Bert

Yes... I had a whole word typo. I read you writing thyratron, and
thought of the thyristors up at Bonneville. A bit of dyslexia there...
 
B

BlindBaby

Jan 1, 1970
0
Apparently much like the sprite lightning plentiful
above the clouds, this reverse lightning from
various tall objects on the ground is plentiful
but little known, and it had never been captured
in any photographs before, ever.

It is like large scale Kirlian photography.

Any object that rises off the main homogenous 'normal flat' of the
surface of this spheroid will acquire a gradient with respect to an
insulted object up in the atmosphere. Clouds and water conduct, but the
air doesn't. So, a charge-up of the cloud occurs with respect to the
spheroid (Earth, in this case) Since it is conductive any release of
that charge will usually result in a 'full dump' of the entire charge
(most all of it anyway).

It will release from the charged cloud to Earth, but it is possible to
see tendrils (leaders) that traverse from other than flat Earthbound
objects (particularly upwardly pointy objects) up to the sky or
particularly, an overhead cloud formation.

Think of it like the leaders that form when you near the outside of a
plasma ball. You are an attractor, even though there is an insulator
between you and the potential you share the attraction with.

The electrons, typically move from the cloud to the Earth though,
because the Earth has far more available sinking mass than any separated,
charged object ever could. So the attraction is ALWAYS going to be to
the spheroidal mass unless the insulated, approaching object is bigger,
which only happens when planets collide.

This tells me that an asteroid that impacts Earth (then meteorite)
would have to have a lightning flash event to the ground at some altitude
prior to it's impact. Hard to catch though, with the super-heated
fireball being so bright.

In fact, anything previously charged or suspended in the air long
enough to gain sufficient charge will pass an electron 'packet' to Earth
as soon as it becomes able to do so, either by arc over or contact.

This is why sub-mariners (or sailors) catching winch lines being
dropped by helicopters ground it to the sub first.
 
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