Electric Lock choice

[[email protected]]

We usually use electric strikes when installing electric door locks in
a commercial installation. We have an upcoming job that has a number
of double doors, that meet in the middle of the 6' door opening,
without a center jamb. Therefore, I guess my choices are magnetic
locks, or a Bolt type lock. Our experiences with the Bolt type lock is
that it takes a long time for the installation (alighment problems).
Is it reasonable to assume that for this type job a magnetic lock is
the better choice? I also understand that if any electric lock is used
during business hours, that the door must have an auto Passive unlock
device, and also a "Push to exit" button, to break the circuit. Any
comments on this will be most appreciated.

 

[Devin]

We usually use electric strikes when installing electric door locks in
a commercial installation. We have an upcoming job that has a number
of double doors, that meet in the middle of the 6' door opening,
without a center jamb. Therefore, I guess my choices are magnetic
locks, or a Bolt type lock. Our experiences with the Bolt type lock is
that it takes a long time for the installation (alighment problems).
Is it reasonable to assume that for this type job a magnetic lock is
the better choice? I also understand that if any electric lock is used
during business hours, that the door must have an auto Passive unlock
device, and also a "Push to exit" button, to break the circuit. Any
comments on this will be most appreciated.

Depends on the jurisdiction you are in with the mag locks. Here it will
be a frosty day in hell before you can get a permit for one. There are
door strikes you can get to go into the top of the door frame. We use
them on double glass doors and they usually work well. Rutherford makes
em(cant think of part #) but havnt had an issue in years. As for the
exit there has to be panic hardware(here at least) that release's the
door if held for 15 seconds.

hope it helps
devin

 

[Crash Gordon]

....and when you bid it...double what you think it will take to install. The
double top maglock are tricky to install. Also you may have to tie into the
fire system so they will release on fire.

 

[[email protected]]

Will look at the Rutherford site, to gain some insite on this top mount
lock. Just a curiousity -- why are the mag locks not accepted in your
area? Does the Rutherford lock seem to be the best choice? Again,
thanks for your input (yours & Crash Gordon)

 

[Devin]

Will look at the Rutherford site, to gain some insite on this top mount
lock. Just a curiousity -- why are the mag locks not accepted in your
area? Does the Rutherford lock seem to be the best choice? Again,
thanks for your input (yours & Crash Gordon)

Alot of it has to with companies not installing them properly and people
getting caught in a fire. If they dont release during a fire or panic
situation, you are going to have deaths. So the city here will rarely
allow them to be installed anymore. Older ones are "grandfathered" and
can still be used. lots of reasons they wont allow it, and all the red
tape to get one isnt worth it.

Rutherford has a decent warranty and are solid products. Von Duprin is
another we use often, but mainly for heavier commercial installs.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks again; could not find anything on the Rutherford site,
specifically for a double door: is it a bolt type lock, or a strike
type?

 

[J. Sloud]

We usually use electric strikes when installing electric door locks in
a commercial installation. We have an upcoming job that has a number
of double doors, that meet in the middle of the 6' door opening,
without a center jamb. Therefore, I guess my choices are magnetic
locks, or a Bolt type lock. Our experiences with the Bolt type lock is
that it takes a long time for the installation (alighment problems).
Is it reasonable to assume that for this type job a magnetic lock is
the better choice? I also understand that if any electric lock is used
during business hours, that the door must have an auto Passive unlock
device, and also a "Push to exit" button, to break the circuit. Any
comments on this will be most appreciated.

Aside from fire code issues others have , maglocks are, by design,
fail safe devices. That means that if power to the maglock is lost,
the door will no longer be locked. Unless steps are taken to ensure
power cannot be disrupted to the maglock, they really aren't suitable
for exterior door or high security use. Typical power supplies use
battery backup that can be used for a few hours. We typically put all
mags on UPS/ generator power and also monitor the power going to the
mags with an alarm contact at will alert the end-user if power fails.
Depending on your location, maglocks will need to be interconnected to
the building fire alarm and you will have to supply emergency egress
that can be operated with no prior knowledge. A REX motion detector
and 2" illuminated timed REX button are accepted around here for
unsecured egress. For secured agress, you'd need a touch sense bar
with delayed opening that conforms to NFPA101. It amazes me that you
need a license in my state to put in a residential burglar alarm, but
anybody can do access control in a public building and put hundreds of
lives at risk with no regulation at all.

J.

 

[petem]

On 29 Jul 2005 18:53:11 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

Aside from fire code issues others have , maglocks are, by design,
fail safe devices. That means that if power to the maglock is lost,
the door will no longer be locked. Unless steps are taken to ensure
power cannot be disrupted to the maglock, they really aren't suitable
for exterior door or high security use. Typical power supplies use
battery backup that can be used for a few hours. We typically put all
mags on UPS/ generator power and also monitor the power going to the
mags with an alarm contact at will alert the end-user if power fails.
Depending on your location, maglocks will need to be interconnected to
the building fire alarm and you will have to supply emergency egress
that can be operated with no prior knowledge. A REX motion detector
and 2" illuminated timed REX button are accepted around here for
unsecured egress. For secured agress, you'd need a touch sense bar
with delayed opening that conforms to NFPA101. It amazes me that you
need a license in my state to put in a residential burglar alarm, but
anybody can do access control in a public building and put hundreds of
lives at risk with no regulation at all.

Wow things in the state are very different then here..

Mags lock are supposed to be unlock if a fire occur or if there is a power
failure...

So mags are only used when there is a entry/exit control of the door..

if its free egress most of the time there is no mag

And mag are always working in combination of an electric strike,the strike
is not subject to the same requirement as the mags,so in power failure and
in case of fire you just have to turn the knob or push a power bar and you
are free to go out but the door is still lock from outside

The electric strike are usually a fail secure type device,so the mags being
a fail safe device they are a complement to each other..

If we lock a door to prevent un wanted exit,like in department store,we
close emergency exit with some mag locks we use a timer device to prevent
the door ton release before having to push on the panic bar for at least 3
sec continuous,at this time there is already a buzzer sounding to say that
the pushing on the panic bar have been detected and after a total of 15 sec
the door should unlock,of course the door will unlock in case of fire with
out delay...

We never (almost never) use mag lock only..just when its for internal
door..and its pretty rare...cause we still have to make it unlock in case of
fire or in case of power failure.

 

[J. Sloud]

Wow things in the state are very different then here..

Not so different. Maglocks aren't suited for high security
applications on exterior doors anywhere. Although it's a common
practice here. If you have controlled egress (swipe a card to get out
of a building), then there must be an approved emergency exit device
such as a touch sense bar or a pressure sensitive maglock that will
release after an audible alarm sounds for 20 seconds.

I don't discuss techniques to compromise security systems here, so
suffice to say, maglocks on exterior doors aren't a good idea. The
practice is so bad here, that some companies actually mount the
maglock on the unsecured side of an inswinging door because they are
too stupid or too lazy to know what a Z bracket is.

 

[Jackcsg]

Not so different. Maglocks aren't suited for high security
applications on exterior doors anywhere.

I disagree with that statement. If you said electric strikes, I would agree.
Strikes offer NO, NONE, ZIP NOTTA, form of Access Control, period.
Physically dis-allowing access to a door, is what access control is all
about. Now I agree that there are very few individuals, and companies that
know how to correctly install a mag lock, but I also blame the AHJ's who
also have no clue about Maglocks either, or their correct disconnect means.
Anything, and I mean anything, that is electronically driven to de-energize
a maglock is incorrect right off the bat. Including touch bars, REX motions,
Timers, etc., anything that is powered to work, period. Only a manual
physical means of disconnect will be 100%, in 100% of any application.
(Along with an FACP interface).

Although it's a common

practice here. If you have controlled egress (swipe a card to get out
of a building), then there must be an approved emergency exit device
such as a touch sense bar or a pressure sensitive maglock that will
release after an audible alarm sounds for 20 seconds.

That can fail to work. This is were companies get in trouble. Don't relie on
anything electronically powered to always work correctly, period.

I don't discuss techniques to compromise security systems here, so
suffice to say, maglocks on exterior doors aren't a good idea. The
practice is so bad here, that some companies actually mount the
maglock on the unsecured side of an inswinging door because they are
too stupid or too lazy to know what a Z bracket is.

You said it: Too Stupid.

 

[J. Sloud]

I disagree with that statement. If you said electric strikes, I would agree.
Strikes offer NO, NONE, ZIP NOTTA, form of Access Control, period.

How do you figure? I normally wouldn't post this but you've got some
bad information:
Maglocks can easily be defeated. Pull the fire alarm and the doors
open. Slip a piece of paper through the crack around the door and wave
it in front of the REX motion and the doors open. Cut power to a
facility and wait until the batteries drain, the doors open. Take a
sawsall and cut through the door frame where you know the powers going
to the maglock, the doors open. Door strikes are locked until
energized. They are fail secure and a much better choice for security
and life safety. How could you defeat a properly installed strike?
Maglocks are installed because they are easy and cheap.

Physically dis-allowing access to a door, is what access control is all
about. Now I agree that there are very few individuals, and companies that
know how to correctly install a mag lock, but I also blame the AHJ's who
also have no clue about Maglocks either, or their correct disconnect means.
Anything, and I mean anything, that is electronically driven to de-energize
a maglock is incorrect right off the bat. Including touch bars, REX motions,
Timers, etc., anything that is powered to work, period. Only a manual
physical means of disconnect will be 100%, in 100% of any application.
(Along with an FACP interface).

Read NFPA101 for the approved method. The commonly installed pull
station that cuts power to the mag is fine and good, but doesn't meet
code since it requires previous knowledge that it is there. To meet
Life Safety Code you need two REX deives including a 2" button at the
door that says push to exit. It's in the code in black and white.

Although it's a common

That can fail to work. This is were companies get in trouble. Don't relie on
anything electronically powered to always work correctly, period.

Actually, I've stated the only approved method according to NFPA101
Life Safety Code for allowing maglocks on non-free egress exits. .
I've done several applications that require emergency egress into
securd areas. Think fire door that opens into a SIDA area where only
badged personnel are normally allowed.

 

[Jackcsg]

How do you figure? I normally wouldn't post this but you've got some
bad information:
Maglocks can easily be defeated. Pull the fire alarm and the doors
open. Slip a piece of paper through the crack around the door and wave
it in front of the REX motion and the doors open. Cut power to a
facility and wait until the batteries drain, the doors open. Take a
sawsall and cut through the door frame where you know the powers going
to the maglock, the doors open. Door strikes are locked until
energized. They are fail secure and a much better choice for security
and life safety.

How could you defeat a properly installed strike?

Put a key in the lock. Open the door.
Then tell me who accessed the door? No Key Control= No Access Control.

Maglocks are installed because they are easy and cheap.

And offer true access control. Physically.

Read NFPA101 for the approved method. The commonly installed pull
station that cuts power to the mag is fine and good, but doesn't meet
code since it requires previous knowledge that it is there.

What? Previous knowledge? It's a big Blue Pull Station Marked "Emergency
Door Release"

To meet

Life Safety Code you need two REX deives including a 2" button at the
door that says push to exit. It's in the code in black and white.

First of all, you're drifting. NFPA, NEC, or what ever 3 letter word, or 4
letter word for that matter you want to state is simply a guideline. A
Manual Pull Station marked "Emergency Door Release" meets that code,
(Guideline). I've never been in a situation, and explained, and or
illustrated to an AHJ that hasn't approved it's intention. Timmers can fail,
as any electronically operated device, other than a manual release, which
works under ANY circumstance.

Actually, I've stated the only approved method according to NFPA101
Life Safety Code for allowing maglocks on non-free egress exits. .
I've done several applications that require emergency egress into
securd areas. Think fire door that opens into a SIDA area where only
badged personnel are normally allowed.

Yeah, then tell me the Government follows NFPA101 in that instance? They're
all just guidelines.

Relax J, I know well enough you're capable of understanding the
circumstance(s). I was a little hot from your blanket statement about
Maglocks. I wasn't trying to start a war over this issue, just voicing my
opinion. If you can't control keys, you have no access control. I wish it
were as simple as eliminating the fears of Maglocks, verses installing a
strike to be safe (or free from liability), but a strike offers no audit
trail for controlling access. Magnetic locks are very safe when installed
correctly.
P.S. I liked the "cut the power to the building and wait".....bit....

 

[J. Sloud]

Jack,

My point was to caution the original poster about improper use of
mags. I know you know your stuff, but we see it all the time, and I
get a little pissed off when I see a potentially life-threatening
situation. I've also seen too many instances where power been lost to
a maglock and critical doors are left to flap open in the breeze.
I've also watched a smart-ass engineer slide a pice of paper through a
crack between the door and frame to activate a Rex motion and open a
mag. We install a lot of mags, but we're careful where they go and
what their limitations are. Same with strikes. I've seen those
mounted on the unsecured side, open to tampering, way too many times
as well. I've seen customers bypass them with a key. Of course a
good IDS with DPS at least lets you know when the doors been
compromised.

Yeah, then tell me the Government follows NFPA101 in that instance? They're
all just guidelines.

They actually insisted on it in their specs since this facility serves
the general public (airport). The maglocks are a Locknetics UL models
with a built in sounder/ timer that automatically releases after 15
seconds of someone pushing on the door:
http://www.locknetics.com/pdf/Delayed Egress and Sensor Locks .pdf
see page F17 of above for the relevant code section if you're
interested.

Relax J, I know well enough you're capable of understanding the
circumstance(s). I was a little hot from your blanket statement about
Maglocks. I wasn't trying to start a war over this issue, just voicing my
opinion. If you can't control keys, you have no access control. I wish it
were as simple as eliminating the fears of Maglocks, verses installing a
strike to be safe (or free from liability), but a strike offers no audit
trail for controlling access. Magnetic locks are very safe when installed
correctly.
P.S. I liked the "cut the power to the building and wait".....bit....

With a door strike, you are assuming that the door lever set can be
operated with a key. Eliminate the operability with the key, and you
fix the strike issue. Maglocks just seem to have more potential
issues. Of course, we have many doors with in and out readers, and in
those instances, door strikes have the same (if not worse) life
safety issues as mags since there is no free egress.

 

[petem]

How could you defeat a properly installed strike?

Put a key in the lock. Open the door.
Then tell me who accessed the door? No Key Control= No Access Control.

Someone that have a key to the door is supposed to be in full control of the
place..what's the use of access control system if any one have keys?

Pretty thin as an example come with better stuff...

And by the way it is a pretty good idea that people in power should have
keys to come in if there is a malfunction in the system...

 

[Jackcsg]

Jack,

My point was to caution the original poster about improper use of
mags. I know you know your stuff, but we see it all the time, and I
get a little pissed off when I see a potentially life-threatening
situation. I've also seen too many instances where power been lost to
a maglock and critical doors are left to flap open in the breeze.
I've also watched a smart-ass engineer slide a pice of paper through a
crack between the door and frame to activate a Rex motion and open a
mag. We install a lot of mags, but we're careful where they go and
what their limitations are. Same with strikes. I've seen those
mounted on the unsecured side, open to tampering, way too many times
as well. I've seen customers bypass them with a key. Of course a
good IDS with DPS at least lets you know when the doors been
compromised.

I hear ya'. I have yet to even come accross one, in combination with a
system, installed correctly. Knowing the door status is key. Knowing
security is even more important. REX motions have their place....I think
I've installed about 5 in the last 20 years, most of which just to shunt a
door contact, rather than release a lock. Some people just feel safer
installing door strikes, and their attributes than providing access control.
Each has it's place.

They actually insisted on it in their specs since this facility serves
the general public (airport). The maglocks are a Locknetics UL models
with a built in sounder/ timer that automatically releases after 15
seconds of someone pushing on the door:
http://www.locknetics.com/pdf/Delayed Egress and Sensor Locks .pdf
see page F17 of above for the relevant code section if you're
interested.

The US Holocaust building has them all over the place. I used to change out
2 or three a year do to failures. Their junk IMO, and I would never delay
egress for any reason. But hey, where would we all be without some wonderful
engineers sitting behind a desk.

With a door strike, you are assuming that the door lever set can be
operated with a key. Eliminate the operability with the key, and you
fix the strike issue. Maglocks just seem to have more potential
issues. Of course, we have many doors with in and out readers, and in
those instances, door strikes have the same (if not worse) life
safety issues as mags since there is no free egress.

I can't off hand think of any issues I've ever encountered with a Maglock
I've installed, but I've heard some good stories from a few AHJ's over the
years on how people install them incorrectly.
FYI. Next time you look at an install, a maglock, look at the STI 2400 Pull
Station. It is DPDT with one contact NC for the lock power, and one side NO.
Tie in the NO side to a zone, and actually monitor the disconnect for
supervision. Since I've been using this device, I have not had one single
issue, or dance with an AHJ. And it works everytime, under any circumstance.
Something to consider....

 

[Jackcsg]

Someone that have a key to the door is supposed to be in full control of the
place..what's the use of access control system if any one have keys?

That's what access control means.....

Pretty thin as an example come with better stuff...

And by the way it is a pretty good idea that people in power should have
keys to come in if there is a malfunction in the system...

I always have a way in....but that's a secret......

 

[[email protected]]

So, back to the original post: We have double doors, meeting in the
center of the opening, without a center post. So if I don't use mag
locks, what type of lock would be my best choice? I would like to use
a good quality strike (such as the securitron Unlatch motorized strike)
but again, there is not a center post. The two doors meet at the
center of the opening, and actually touch each other with their felt
weather strips. Your input will be most appreciated. Thanks again . .
..

 

[Frank Olson]

So, back to the original post: We have double doors, meeting in the
center of the opening, without a center post. So if I don't use mag
locks, what type of lock would be my best choice? I would like to use
a good quality strike (such as the securitron Unlatch motorized strike)
but again, there is not a center post. The two doors meet at the
center of the opening, and actually touch each other with their felt
weather strips. Your input will be most appreciated. Thanks again . .

Go with mag locks. Clear the installation with the local AHJ. If security
is an issue then power the locks from a stand-by power supply. I'm not a
huge fan of motion activated door releases like the "T-Rex", particularily
where "security" is a concern. I know if I was walking up to a glass door
to leave my residence and saw a rather unsavory character lurking about
outside, I wouldn't want the door to open unless *I* was the one making that
decision (ie. use a request to exit button). A "T-Rex" takes that choice
away from you as soon as you approach the door. This is an issue that we've
actually managed to get variances on from the AHJ, but you have to talk to
them and clear it first!! Most AHJ's won't "bend" on the issue of
connecting the lock to the fire alarm so that the doors open in a fire
emergency though, so don't even try. )

 

[J. Sloud]

The US Holocaust building has them all over the place. I used to change out
2 or three a year do to failures. Their junk IMO, and I would never delay
egress for any reason. But hey, where would we all be without some wonderful
engineers sitting behind a desk.

How about this scenario: You've got an airport terminal that has
access controlled doors that open outside to the tarmac. Normally,
only authorized employees are allowed access through these doors
using a SIDA badge. However, in the event of an emergency, these
doors must be used for egress by the general public. What do you do?
Without delayed egress, you could have a situation where someone pulls
your emergency egress devices and waltzes out onto an airport runway.
The delayed egress is tied into the airport security and CCTV systems
to notify security and swing a PTZ around to view/ record whats going
on, and allows them 15 seconds to at see who's about to go through
that door. That's where these locks have there place.

 

[J. Sloud]

So, back to the original post: We have double doors, meeting in the
center of the opening, without a center post. So if I don't use mag
locks, what type of lock would be my best choice? I would like to use
a good quality strike (such as the securitron Unlatch motorized strike)
but again, there is not a center post. The two doors meet at the
center of the opening, and actually touch each other with their felt
weather strips. Your input will be most appreciated. Thanks again . .
.

You have three choices: mag locks, electric bolt type locks, or some
type of specialized electric strike designed for these doors (if there
is one). Maglocks are fine in most applications, but beware of their
limitations. You can usually surface mount an electric bolt type
setup to these doors and avoid maglocks if necessary.