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Electric Lock choice

J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
Go with mag locks. Clear the installation with the local AHJ. If security
is an issue then power the locks from a stand-by power supply. I'm not a
huge fan of motion activated door releases like the "T-Rex", particularily
where "security" is a concern. I know if I was walking up to a glass door
to leave my residence and saw a rather unsavory character lurking about
outside, I wouldn't want the door to open unless *I* was the one making that
decision (ie. use a request to exit button). A "T-Rex" takes that choice
away from you as soon as you approach the door. This is an issue that we've
actually managed to get variances on from the AHJ, but you have to talk to
them and clear it first!! Most AHJ's won't "bend" on the issue of
connecting the lock to the fire alarm so that the doors open in a fire
emergency though, so don't even try. :))
Frank,

in the United States, according to NFPA101 Life Safety Code, you must
have a REX motion. Specifically it says that the door must
automatically release from the egress side as a person approaches.
You also have to have a manual means of shunting power to the mag that
is clearly labeled "Push to Exit." Nothing else meets code. Period.

As for local AHJ's: Doing what they say may not be enough. Many
don't know crap, and you do not automatically remove yourself from
liability claims just because some local fire marshal said something
was okay. At least get it in writing.
 
J

Jackcsg

Jan 1, 1970
0
J. Sloud said:
How about this scenario: You've got an airport terminal that has
access controlled doors that open outside to the tarmac. Normally,
only authorized employees are allowed access through these doors
using a SIDA badge. However, in the event of an emergency, these
doors must be used for egress by the general public. What do you do?
Without delayed egress, you could have a situation where someone pulls
your emergency egress devices and waltzes out onto an airport runway.
The delayed egress is tied into the airport security and CCTV systems
to notify security and swing a PTZ around to view/ record whats going
on, and allows them 15 seconds to at see who's about to go through
that door. That's where these locks have there place.

I wouldn't allow egress on to a Tarmac for the general public. That would be
like a rear exit door 50' above a lake....hope you can swim....Again, the
codes are there for some guidelines. I enjoy being liable for my actions,
most companies are afraid of being held accountable.
 
J

Jackcsg

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, back to the original post: We have double doors, meeting in the
center of the opening, without a center post. So if I don't use mag
locks, what type of lock would be my best choice? I would like to use
a good quality strike (such as the securitron Unlatch motorized strike)
but again, there is not a center post. The two doors meet at the
center of the opening, and actually touch each other with their felt
weather strips. Your input will be most appreciated. Thanks again . .
.
I can tell you how I would propose it. With Maglocks. I would either use 2
Advanced Signal L-1000 (1000lbs holding), one on each door, or an optional
DBL-1000 (Double Mag). If this door is a public access door, (which I assume
it is) you'll probably have it unlocked during public hours. After hours
when the door locks I'd have both an REX Motion and a push button located
near the door. After a time when no one is in the building (9,10,11,12pm), I
would shunt the REX motion so that only the REX push button would work
(prior knowledge). I'd place an STI 2400 Pull station in series with the
Maglock Power (for door release), and tie in the other Pole of the Pull
Station to a Monitored zone on an/or the Alarm Panel. Tie in the Control
(interface it with the FACP) for fire release. I'd also have a glass break
detector in the area, protecting the glass. Then of course, on my
installation, it would have a Network Camera close by for video
verification, and be monitored over the Internet. I'd receive door alarms in
50-70 mille-seconds, and be looking at live video within 3 seconds of the
event.....and you would never have any false alarms. That's just me though.
You still have a 2% chance of doing it right any other way.
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
J. Sloud said:
Frank,

in the United States, according to NFPA101 Life Safety Code, you must
have a REX motion. Specifically it says that the door must
automatically release from the egress side as a person approaches.
You also have to have a manual means of shunting power to the mag that
is clearly labeled "Push to Exit." Nothing else meets code. Period.

As for local AHJ's: Doing what they say may not be enough. Many
don't know crap, and you do not automatically remove yourself from
liability claims just because some local fire marshal said something
was okay. At least get it in writing.

First off, I wouldn't accept the local Fire Marshal here as having the final
authority on any variance as they usually defer to the person that does
anyway (which happens to be the building inspector). To apply for a
variance and have one granted you must do so in writing, cite the reasons
for it and submit sealed drawings from an Electrical Engineer. In your
example of the airport doors to the tarmac, the Airport Authority should
consider obtaining a variance to extend the time that the door will release
to 60 seconds in an emergency. I think it's far more dangerous to allow
members of the general public onto a ramp or apron where they could easily
be sucked into an engine or suffer other injury. 60 seconds would give
someone "with a clue" to respond to the door and escort people to safety.
In any civil court proceedings which I've witnessed the judge in almost all
cases defers to "common sense" and "public safety". Most people aren't
aware of the hazards of jet blast or how to successfully negotiate an active
ramp to a safe location.
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Where does it state "automatically"? Sorta takes away from the crash bar
design. Many muni's are requiring the push buttons with the pneumatic delays
(mechanical) in lieu of the electronic REX motions. Their fear is the
failure of the electronics (relays freezing up) and the door not opening.
Had to recently get a variance on a checkzit (sp) (VonDuprin) door release.
It is in an immigration holding facility and needed to have a 30 second
delay on the door. VonDuprin wouldn't touch it without a letter from the
fire marshall.

Yep!
 
P

petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jackcsg said:
I wouldn't allow egress on to a Tarmac for the general public. That would
be
like a rear exit door 50' above a lake....hope you can swim....Again, the
codes are there for some guidelines. I enjoy being liable for my actions,
most companies are afraid of being held accountable.


Sorry to disturb you in your little world of magic where there is an exit
door close enough any where in an airport that will never lead to the
tarmac,
but in the real world Architect and engineer have to supply by code some way
of exiting a building in case of emergency..and the door cannot be place
more then given length(depend of your the code,don't know what it is in the
state,and it could be even lower then the federal code,if the state itself
stated as so..)(same here in Canada)

that lead to doors that need to be opened in case of emergency to ANY part
around an airport...

that You decide you would not leave people go out in any case is NO revelent
here...

it is a fact and you would HAVE to do deal with it..

stop dodging the real world..I am really wondering if you really know what
you are talking about..


About the locknetics maglocks..you are right they are not very good..
they need to be powered by the exact voltage they were designed for..putting
just 3 volts over will kill the device in a few months..
 
J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
First off, I wouldn't accept the local Fire Marshal here as having the final
authority on any variance as they usually defer to the person that does
anyway (which happens to be the building inspector). To apply for a
variance and have one granted you must do so in writing, cite the reasons
for it and submit sealed drawings from an Electrical Engineer. In your
example of the airport doors to the tarmac, the Airport Authority should
consider obtaining a variance to extend the time that the door will release
to 60 seconds in an emergency. I think it's far more dangerous to allow
members of the general public onto a ramp or apron where they could easily
be sucked into an engine or suffer other injury. 60 seconds would give
someone "with a clue" to respond to the door and escort people to safety.
In any civil court proceedings which I've witnessed the judge in almost all
cases defers to "common sense" and "public safety". Most people aren't
aware of the hazards of jet blast or how to successfully negotiate an active
ramp to a safe location.
This terminal would dump into an area far from the taxiway, but still
within the SIDA area. However, if a plane was approaching the ramp,
an accident with the motorized ramp itself is a real possibility.
 
J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
Where does it state "automatically"?

NFPA 101 Section 5-2.1.6.2

"A sensor provided on the egress side arranged to detect an occupant
approaching the doors and the doors are arranged to unlock upon
detection of approaching occupant ..."

i.e. a motion detector that unclocks the doors.
 
J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry to disturb you in your little world of magic where there is an exit
door close enough any where in an airport that will never lead to the
tarmac,
but in the real world Architect and engineer have to supply by code some way
of exiting a building in case of emergency..and the door cannot be place
more then given length(depend of your the code,don't know what it is in the
state,and it could be even lower then the federal code,if the state itself
stated as so..)(same here in Canada)

that lead to doors that need to be opened in case of emergency to ANY part
around an airport...

that You decide you would not leave people go out in any case is NO revelent
here...

it is a fact and you would HAVE to do deal with it..

stop dodging the real world..I am really wondering if you really know what
you are talking about..


About the locknetics maglocks..you are right they are not very good..
they need to be powered by the exact voltage they were designed for..putting
just 3 volts over will kill the device in a few months..

Sorry Jack, looks like Pete's right. This area must have emergency
egress and the mid-seventies design of the airport terminal never
factored in 9/11. We didn't design it, but I doubt much else could be
done. To be honest, I'm not sure what the delay on the mags is. It
could be 30 seconds or more. However, TSA is never more than a few
hundred feet from this area, so 30 seconds would suffice for response
to an audible alarm at the door in question.
 
N

Nomen Nescio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Worthy said:
Where does it state "automatically"? Sorta takes away from the crash bar
design. Many muni's are requiring the push buttons with the pneumatic delays
(mechanical) in lieu of the electronic REX motions. Their fear is the
failure of the electronics (relays freezing up) and the door not opening.
Had to recently get a variance on a checkzit (sp) (VonDuprin) door release.
It is in an immigration holding facility and needed to have a 30 second
delay on the door. VonDuprin wouldn't touch it without a letter from the
fire marshall.

It sounds like some of you guys may be confusing the requirements for
"delayed egress" doors and "access controlled egress doors." The NFPA
requirements for the two are different, and the most recent requirements
are found in NFPA 5000, the NFPA building code. Of course, thzt may not be
the building code in your particular area. Building occupancy type affects
the requirements, too. An airport is an assembly occupancy, and delayed
egress locks are permitted on everything but the main exit doors and the
doors leading out from the airplane into the terminal.

For delayed egress doors:

Sprinklers or full automatic fire alarm is mandatory
Loss of power to the lock must unlock the door
No REX sensor required
No exit pushbutton required
Pushing on the panic bar for 3 seconds must start an irreversible process
that unlocks the door in 15 seconds (30 seconds by special permission)
Audible alarm at the door is required
Once unlocked, door will not relock until manually reset
Sign on the door is required, telling people what to do
Emergency lighting required near the door


For access-controlled egress doors:

EITHER a REX sensor OR panic hardware with a switch is required
Exit pushbutton is mandatory, even if panic hardware is used
Exit button must directly interrupt lock power; must remain unlocked for at
least 30 seconds
Loss of power to the lock must unlock the door (note this excludes most
electric deadbolts)
Sprinklers or fire alarm is not required, but if they are present, they
must unlock the door

- badenov
 
J

Jackcsg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry to disturb you in your little world of magic....

My world of magic? The point is EVERY scenario is different. Every Engineer
will interpret things a little differently, and differently depending on
what Codes they follow at any given time.

where there is an exit
door close enough any where in an airport that will never lead to the
tarmac,
but in the real world Architect and engineer have to supply by code some way
of exiting a building in case of emergency..and the door cannot be place
more then given length(depend of your the code,don't know what it is in the
state,and it could be even lower then the federal code,if the state itself
stated as so..)(same here in Canada)

I understand what you're saying, most emergency exits in Airports aren't
designed to exit you onto a Tarmac, or exit way. The design, (Older Designs)
may have had no choice, and or may or may not meet (under curent codes)
their function. I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen.
that lead to doors that need to be opened in case of emergency to ANY part
around an airport...

that You decide you would not leave people go out in any case is NO revelent
here...

That's not what I ever said. I said, depending on the circumstance, it could
be as worse as keeping them inside.
it is a fact and you would HAVE to do deal with it..

No shit. Codes are guidelines, I deal with them every day.
stop dodging the real world..I am really wondering if you really know what
you are talking about.

Stop dodging the real world? Is that the standard answer of a Canadian who
does? Kind of contridictive don't you think?
About the locknetics maglocks..you are right they are not very good..
they need to be powered by the exact voltage they were designed for..putting
just 3 volts over will kill the device in a few months..

I wouldn't ever trust, nor would I ever install a delayed egress maglock.
Good for you those who do....have fun with it.
 
P

petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jackcsg said:
My world of magic? The point is EVERY scenario is different. Every
Engineer
will interpret things a little differently, and differently depending on
what Codes they follow at any given time.



I understand what you're saying, most emergency exits in Airports aren't
designed to exit you onto a Tarmac, or exit way. The design, (Older
Designs)
may have had no choice, and or may or may not meet (under curent codes)
their function. I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen.


That's not what I ever said. I said, depending on the circumstance, it
could
be as worse as keeping them inside.


No shit. Codes are guidelines, I deal with them every day.


Stop dodging the real world? Is that the standard answer of a Canadian who
does? Kind of contridictive don't you think?

I wouldn't ever trust, nor would I ever install a delayed egress maglock.
Good for you those who do....have fun with it.

Now i know that you dont install much stuff on access system..
 
J

Jackcsg

Jan 1, 1970
0
petem said:
Now i know that you dont install much stuff on access system..
Yes Pete, I just started last week. Catch me up will ya....
 
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