Boycott Toshiba

[[email protected]]

And your person who has never seen a copier knows what the developer
bias does, or the transfer voltage, etc when looking in the service
manual. Not probable.

Fixing anything that is broken, assuming they can figure out what is
broken in the first place.

The 'good reason' the business products division does not sell service
manuals except to authorized servicers/dealers is that the business
products independent dealer network has specific territories that they
cover and are contracted to cover for the manufacture, the
manufacture's end of the contract is to help ensure that no one can
infringe on the territory.

 

[none]

More and more manufacturers are adopting this policy. If you refuse to
purchase from companies who refuse to provide tech info to you, you'll soon
find yourself without any of the luxury items you currently enjoy. I
suppose you could become Amish and live a contented life w/o the infernal
modern machines that need repairing.

Well... There ARE ways to get one's hands on some service manuals.
Depends on the particular brand. I have some manuals still in storage
for Xerox and one or two Models of Canon. I was able to purchase them
from a company that reverse engineered them. though the Xerox dupes
look just like the OEM manuals.
And there are individuals out there that "hack" just about anything
electronic that's worth it in the first place.(I've gotten invaluable
info from just such persons who've devised work-a-rounds for many of
the built in breakdowns built into many of today's office machines.
Xerox's counter fuses come to mind, that blow after X number of copies
and stop the copier dead. Even though the drum unit still has
thousands of good copies to go.)

Yes it IS getting tougher though. Guess that makes me a bit of a relic
as I refuse to back up myself. The newest automobile I own is 21 years
old, the oldest 55. And I do ALL the service/repair work myself, to
hell with all the new crap they're trying to push on us.
Most all of my still camera gear is considered antique, though much of
it has rare Zeiss optics and does better work than any of todays
cameras.(Heck my mopic gear's all vintage Arri most over 40 years of
age.)
Much of my hifi system is older than most posting in the NG yet has
better specs than 95% of todays offerings.
All of my possesions, whether luxury or neccessity, are repaired by
none but me.

I understand and agree with your gripe, though. Things are no better for
those who were authorized and are no longer, or for those who are fully
versed in electronics repair, in some cases been in the biz for many years,
yet are not authorized service centers for certain lines. Some manu's even
refuse to sell certain items (e.g., tools) to their own authorized service
centers! That's supposed to be a huge hint that even the most qualified
tech shouldn't screw around with the factory settings.

I remember a time when manu's actually included the schematics in the retail
box with the products! Radio Shack included schematics with their stuff
long after the TV manu's ceased this practice. I haven't bought any Rat
Shack products in eons, so they may no longer include the diagrams -- anyone
care to enlighten me? The last major kitchen appliances I bought included
wiring/parts diagrams, but that was 5+ years ago, so this may no longer be
the industry standard.

Rat shack no longer does that. Sadly even when they did most of their
offerings were so shoddily designed/made that repairing wasn't worth
the trouble.(I remember when they go so low that they didn't even have
their stuff manufactured in Japan, more like Hong Kong or Thailand.)

My experience suggests the most cooperative brands for the non-authorized
end user to deal with are Fisher, NEC, Pioneer and Sony.

Not so with Sony, actually one of the worst.

Paper manuals are always going to cost you more than microfiche because it
costs THEM more to produce than fiche. A paper VCR manual is likely to cost
you upwards of $50.00, whereas the fiche for the same model may run as low
as $6.00!
You can usually inveigle most manu's to part with service literature. You
have to jump through hoops (e.g., a multitude of voicemail options and
runarounds), flatter the rep and sometimes virtually beg, but they usually
cave. If they won't sell directly, they'll often have lists of shops or
websites which may be helpful. For those who absolutely insist on selling
only to authorized service centers, try visiting an authorized service
center -- you'd be surprised how many are willing to xerox pages from their
manuals (for a fee), especially if you speak the lingo and know what you're
doing. Consumer electronics techs are a dying breed and it's amusing to see
the old boys' eyes light up when they meet a "new guy" who knows the biz.
=)

I've found that Panasonic is one of the easiest to deal with, at least
their industrial division.(Matsushita) followed by JVC.(My wife's JVC
television started giving her problems in the first couple of months
of the warranty period. She got on site service as part of the deal.
When the repair tech came out and replaced the bad component he let me
copy his service manual no problem.)
Fisher's been a joy to deal with over the years, they've sold me any
manual or part I've ever needed for anyof their products.

 

[none]

And your person who has never seen a copier knows what the developer
bias does, or the transfer voltage, etc when looking in the service
manual. Not probable.

Fixing anything that is broken, assuming they can figure out what is
broken in the first place.

The 'good reason' the business products division does not sell service
manuals except to authorized servicers/dealers is that the business
products independent dealer network has specific territories that they
cover and are contracted to cover for the manufacture, the
manufacture's end of the contract is to help ensure that no one can
infringe on the territory.

i.e monopolize.
People are not so stupid as you think or would like them to be.

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

i.e monopolize.
People are not so stupid as you think or would like them to be.

Oooh, you figured out that he was trying to conceal the fact that servicers
try to maintain a monopoly on their market...how smart you are. David, you
should try harder to speak in code. There are actually people on Usenet
that are not stupid. Go figure.

So really, what is your point? Lots of businesses that require some special
skills, sales abilities, equipment investment, or other special handling to
effectively serve their customers limit territories to give dealers,
servicers, or sales reps an incentive to support them. The degree to which
they do so varies, but it is done all the time. It is no big secret. Too
many reps in a market can dilute the business to a point where support
becomes elusive because there is no incentive to make the investment. It is
simply a fact of doing business that some monopolistic practices are
necessary.

Companies need to understand that when taken to an extreme, however, service
suffers, and their business does as well. JVC is a good example in the
consumer electronics market. In many areas their density of ASCs is so low
that people have to travel many dozens or even hundreds of miles to get to a
servicer. They stubbornly will still not provide support through non-ASCs.
The result is that people in some markets that do their homework avoid their
products like HIV. Hitachi has taken the opposite approach and opened
service support to any shop, even those who are not ASCs. The good will and
ease of getting their products serviced is paying off in market share.

On the other hand, the fact that consumer electronics have become such a
commodity has pushed the dealer/servicer to the fringe. The balance between
protected markets and competition in terms of what is good for the consumer
is a complex one. Dealers need to be protected to a degree to assure
support, but competition is necessary to assure that prices are not inflated
too much. The definition of value is a complex one as well.

Now, since you are so smart, you should be able to understand the nuances of
a complex marketplace. Or should we stick to more simple concepts like,
monopoly bad, discount whorehouse good?

Leonard

 

[James Sweet]

So really, what is your point? Lots of businesses that require some special
skills, sales abilities, equipment investment, or other special handling to
effectively serve their customers limit territories to give dealers,
servicers, or sales reps an incentive to support them. The degree to which
they do so varies, but it is done all the time. It is no big secret. Too
many reps in a market can dilute the business to a point where support
becomes elusive because there is no incentive to make the investment. It is
simply a fact of doing business that some monopolistic practices are
necessary.

Companies need to understand that when taken to an extreme, however, service
suffers, and their business does as well. JVC is a good example in the
consumer electronics market. In many areas their density of ASCs is so low
that people have to travel many dozens or even hundreds of miles to get to a
servicer. They stubbornly will still not provide support through non-ASCs.
The result is that people in some markets that do their homework avoid their
products like HIV. Hitachi has taken the opposite approach and opened
service support to any shop, even those who are not ASCs. The good will and
ease of getting their products serviced is paying off in market share.

On the other hand, the fact that consumer electronics have become such a
commodity has pushed the dealer/servicer to the fringe. The balance between
protected markets and competition in terms of what is good for the consumer
is a complex one. Dealers need to be protected to a degree to assure
support, but competition is necessary to assure that prices are not inflated
too much. The definition of value is a complex one as well.

I've come to like Pioneer, ordered parts from them directly several times,
never a hassle.

 

[PaPaPeng]

I wasted several hours on the phone and none of their service centers would
sell me the stupid manual either. In fact, it seems that neither Corporate
or any of the service centers even had the manual in the first place !

Have you tried going to a service department to take a look at the
same manual, or better still a parts catalogue? It will be harder for
them to say no in person especially if you, a customer, are only
educating yourself.

An exploded view of the machine is often a lot easier to comprehend
where everything goes, their functional relationship and to figure
out the disassembly/reassembly sequence. I think your intent is
really to find out how to clean that photocopier and to do small
maintenance fixes. Any more complex repairs that need parts
replacements and alignments is probably best left to their servicemen.

 

[[email protected]]

The only thing worse I think than companies that are trying to stay in
business is freeloaders who claim some kind of disability, get money
from the government and then do things on the side tax free, like mow
lawns, repair stuff for people for pay, but yet they are living on OUR
tax money because they claim to be disabled.

At least locally the Gov't is trying to track down on this kind of
illegal activity. They are following up on the classified ads that
list phone numbers and trying to ensure they are a legit business and
not someone working out of the garage and not reporting the income.
The last couple were on Gov't disability and are now in hot water.

 

[none]

The only thing worse I think than companies that are trying to stay in
business is freeloaders who claim some kind of disability, get money
from the government and then do things on the side tax free, like mow
lawns, repair stuff for people for pay, but yet they are living on OUR
tax money because they claim to be disabled.

At least locally the Gov't is trying to track down on this kind of
illegal activity. They are following up on the classified ads that
list phone numbers and trying to ensure they are a legit business and
not someone working out of the garage and not reporting the income.
The last couple were on Gov't disability and are now in hot water.

I see! Now your a doctor?
If you new anything about what you were talking about you'd know that
just because one has a disability it doesn't mean they aren't capable
of some physical activity.(Go check the laws regarding disability
eligibility on this one and you'll see that it's perfectly fine to do
whatever physical activity one is capable of while on disability.)
What the Government is trying to do is track down those that falsely
claim disability then do work on the side that directly involves the
use of the disabled member or portion of the body that the claimant
filed on.
Can't expect you to see this fine difference though, not with your
obviously republican mindset.
Also simpleton there are percentages of disability. If the government
only finds you 50% disabled are you then prohibited from working at
all? Remember now that even at a 100% rating we're talking poverty
level income.
And then we're only talking disability drawn through the social
security administration.
What about disability from the veteran's administration?
That's even worse. And that's a benefit that is guaranteed by
contractual law to the veteran, yet always denied on one bogus finding
or another by the government.(ALL disabled veterans have to fight
tooth and nail to get what scraps the government is willing to toss
them having to work all the while in spite of their disability to
survive long enough to get what was rightfully their's in the first
place.)

Your lack of knowledge regarding tax and resale law are wrong as well.
1) One does not have to a business to place a classified ad.
2) Sale of used merchandise by an individual is tax exempt. i.e. if
you do repair work as a hobby and sell the repaired items taxation
doesn't even enter into the picture. At least not at the level of
income we're talking about.

If you want to talk about freeloaders let's take a look at
corporations and big business that pays a much smaller percentage of
taxes than the average blue collar worker, many even use tax dodges
and loop holes to receive tax credits thereby avoiding paying their
fair share at all!

 

[kip]

Another thread to the block file...
Give it up .