Asking for Recommendations for New HVAC in a Row Home

[Mike]

Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
stone/brick covered front porch. in the Baltimore, MD area (mid Atlantic).
w/ the front facing due south.. The walls are at least two courses of brick,
maybe more, ok replacement aluminum storm windows, it's got no accessible
attic, 8' 2" ceilings w/ electric baseboard heat.\ and window ac. I'm going
to upgrade the heating and AC. I'm getting the first floor gutted leaving
the plaster on the walls then framed w/ standard wood studs, then insulated
(what should I used for insulation?) into one room appx 16'' x 30. Some
months ago I posted a similar message in some the same news groups and
several posters recommended a system that includes a high efficiency heat
pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat pumps I din't know if
they don't have experience w/ the new HPs. I included two estimates to
install a HVAC system. What do you think? How would you design the system
differently. BTW, electricity costs increase 50% in cost June 1st of this
year.
*************************************************************************************.
quote by a local licensed contractor:
Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed Gas
Furnace.
Install one new Goodman A-Coil, 13 seer.
Install one new Goodman High-Efficiency Condenser 2 1/2 ton, 13 seer.
Run complete new ductwork throughout 1st and 2nd floor to supply sufficient
outlets to each room on 1st and
2nd floor.
Run one new cold air return duct to 1st and 2nd floor.
Run all new copper refrigeration lines to Condenser.
Install all necessary registers and grilles.
Install one new heat/cool thermostat.

Additional: All wiring, patching, painting and boxing in of ductwork to be
done by others.
Warranty: 20 Years Manufacturers Warranty on Heat-Exchanger.
10 Years Manufacturers Warranty on All Parts. (Until June 30,
2007)
1 Year Warranty on Labor.
Cost: $8,400.00, $3,500.00 Down, $4,400.00 Due upon installing ductwork and
equipment, $500.00 Due upon start up.
________________________________________________________________________________
another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
paste it.

all duct work & returns, Trane XL 14; 2.5 Ton air conditioner, 14 SEER puron
unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
programmable thermostat. same warranty on equipment.
$9,900.00

both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
efficiency units.

 

[Guest]

several posters recommended a system that includes a high efficiency heat
pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat pumps I din't know if
they don't have experience w/ the new HPs.

both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
efficiency units.

By the two above comments...

You better KEEP LOOKING!!!!!!!!!

 

[CJ]

Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/

*************************************************************************************.
quote by a local licensed contractor:
Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed Gas
Furnace.

________________________________________________________________________________
another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
paste it.

unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &

Frankly, I think everything proposed is way too small for 11K sq ft.

 

[Mike]

By the two above comments...

You better KEEP LOOKING!!!!!!!!!

it will help if you reply w/ specifics.

 

[Mike]

Frankly, I think everything proposed is way too small for 11K sq ft.

will you reply w/ specifics?

 

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Mike,

I'm one of the guys who recommended a ductless heat pump and I'm
disappointed to hear the HVAC contractors you've contacted are
unfamiliar with this technology. I suggested a ductless system as a
way to avoid the hassle (and expense) of installing the ductwork
related to a conventional forced air system; if you are removing the
existing plaster walls and reframing then, obviously, one of the key
benefits of this approach is largely moot.

Since you are going the forced air route, you might consider a
conventional heat pump as one more option. Over the long haul, I
expect natural gas prices to significantly outpace electricity due to
tight market conditions and a growing reliance on expensive LNG
imports (largely from countries who don't exactly like you).

If I'm reading BGE's rate schedule correctly, it looks like your new
summer rate (after the 47 per cent increase) is 14.09 cents per kWh,
including transmission and distribution charges, and the combined
winter rate is 12.73 cents. A heat pump with a HSPF rating of 8.5
(i.e., seasonal COP of 2.5), would thus provide heat at just under 5.1
cents per kWh(e) and assuming similar SEER ratings, cooling costs
would be on par.

Currently, BGE charges $1.0243 per therm for natural gas and an
additional $0.2561 for distribution (combined cost: $1.28/therm). At
80 per cent AFUE, the cost of gas heat works out to be 5.46 cents per
kWh(e). That being the case, the operating cost of a mid-range heat
pump and a mid-efficiency gas furnace are pretty much equal but,
again, going forward, I expect electricity to be your least cost
option. You've already taken the big hit now that the cap on
electricity rates has been removed, and given the bulk of your
electricity is coal-fired and nuclear, rates should (hopefully) remain
relatively stable.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Guest]

it will help if you reply w/ specifics.

The contractors you have talked to DON'T know their own trade.

That specific enough?

 

[Guest]

****************************************************************************
*********.
____________________________________________________________________________
____

will you reply w/ specifics?

Equipment is to small for a 11K sq ft home...

Is that hard to figure out?

 

[ard[H20]]

it will help if you reply w/ specifics.

Just _how_ are "specifics" going to help _you_ 'Mike'?
And, if your contractors are not sold on heat pumps then
you should not be sold on what they sell you.

 

[[email protected]]

... Over the long haul, I expect natural gas prices to significantly
outpace electricity due to>tight market conditions and a growing reliance
on expensive LNG imports (largely from countries who don't exactly like you).

I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural gas,
which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.

Nick

 

[[email protected]]

Actually combined cycle stations where the exhaust of the gas turbine
feeds a boiler and runs a steam turbine have topped the 50% efficiency
mark. Seems like I saw 52% mentioned in one recent trade rag.

With 100 F dry radiators? I wonder how much is lost in transmission.

And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.

Nick

 

[Mike]

I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural
gas,
which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.

Nick

The local utility sold all of the gas fired plants and now they generate
electricity w/ only coal and nuclear.
OTOH, some providers keep gas fired generators around because they can claim
the cost of gas generators as their
cost basis to milk the public a little more.

 

[Mike]

With 100 F dry radiators? I wonder how much is lost in transmission.

And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.

Nick

This winter we had two straight weeks of temp in the low teens, below zero
and in the teens or twenties during the day.

 

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Nick,

I would expect the opposite, since electricity is often made from natural gas,
which usually involves wasting 2/3 of its heating value.

Nick

Not sure I can agree with you on this one. According to EIA's latest
numbers, less than 10 per cent of America's utility generation is
natural gas driven (238,484 GWH versus a total of 2,554,050 GHW), a
good portion of which I imagine can be attributed to peakers. When
you total all sources, including combined heat and power (where,
obviously, the waste heat is put to good use) and independent power
producers, the final number climbs to 18.7 per cent.

Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html

I don't have a proper breakdown of BGE's fuel mix, but for its
corporate parent, Constellation Energy, it is as follows:

Nuclear -- 60.9%
Coal -- 34.6%
Natural Gas -- 0.2%
Oil -- 0.2%
Renewables -- 3.9%

Source:
http://www.bge.com/portal/site/constellation/menuitem.16c4d66a696c12875fb60610025166a0/

I can't guarantee BGE's electricity rates will remain relatively
stable in years to come, nor can I say with all certainty that coal
and nuclear power will be less costly than domestic natural gas or LNG
imports from the Middle East. But given that domestic natural gas
production peaked back in 1973 and is continuing to fall year after
year, and that America will be competing for LNG on the world market
and that the cost of LNG will be tightly coupled to that of oil, I
know where I'd be placing my bets.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi John,

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:05:38 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge

I still like ductless heat pumps and would go that route regardless if
an installer can be found that is remotely competitive.

It would be my first choice as well. I have an oil-fired boiler and
last year, I used a total of 828 litres of heating oil (220 gallons)
for heat and domestic hot water production, over half of which can be
attributed to the latter. The rest of my space heating needs were met
by a small ductless heat pump that operates at less than half the cost
of oil (older, 2,500 sq. ft. Cape Cod).

That's a good analysis as far as it goes. But you forget that
Baltimore is too cold most of the winter for an air exchange heat pump
to work. He would therefore be back on resistance heat with a COP of
1.

I live in a much colder climate (7,800 versus 4,700 HDD) and my
seasonal COP last year was 2.45. Granted, I worked hard to achieve
that number by making sure the unit ran continuously during the
warmest times of the day and by using the thermal mass of my home to
minimize its runtime as temperatures fell. Under normal operation,
its COP would be in the range of 2.1 (based on a HSPF rating of 7.2,
zones IV and V). A heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 or higher would
perform notably better, especially at the lower end of the temperature
band when additional heat is required.

For anyone who wants to pull out all the stops, the Friedrich M18YF
has a HSPF of 11 and produces 21,600 BTU/h at 47F and 16,600 BTU/h at
17F. It continues to produce heat (albeit at reduced amounts) all the
way down to 5F. And with these new inverter drives, you can
effectively size a heat pump according to your home's heating
requirements and not have to worry about paying a penalty in terms of
reduced cooling performance.

That's a key point -- with a high efficiency, inverter-driven heat
pump, appropriately sized for heating demands, I expect the need for
backup resistance heat would be rather modest.

I'm not as pessimistic about gas prices as you are. The root of the
price run-up is the installation of thousands of megawatts of gas
turbine and combined cycle plants that burn natural gas. This was a
crutch to ride out the worst of the econazi craziness. IT seems to me
that the worst of this is past, that most everyone except the crazies
themselves realize that "ban everything" (fossil and nuke plants,
transmission lines, substations, etc) hasn't worked very well.

The utilities, at least most of 'em if I can go by what the trade
press says, have realized that this crutch has been used about as much
as is practical. Streamlined licensing is enabling the construction
of new fossil plants and in the not too distant future, nukes. Once
those dams burst, the demand for NG will at first level off and then
decline. Gas turbine based plants are expensive to run and to
maintain so they'll be relegated back to where they belong - peaking
duty.

For the time being I'd hedge my bets with multiple heat sources. A
dual fuel NG/heat pump and AC unit would cover two sources of heat.
Either electric baseboard or 240 volt freestanding electric heaters
will cover the electric end if it's too cold for the heat pump and gas
is too high. Room electric heaters, effectively giving zone control,
is more efficient than central resistance heating.

Electric power generation puts a big strain on natural gas supplies,
the summer months in particular when peaking plants are required to
meet high air conditioning loads. I'm not sure how you get around
that, unless utilities can do a much better job with respect to energy
conservation and proper load management. For now, I'm afraid we're
pretty much stuck with what we have.

I'm also a strong believer in fuel diversity. In addition to a
minimal amount of passive solar and modest internal heat gains from
lighting and appliances, my home has four sources of heat: an
oil-fired boiler, a ductless heat pump, in-floor electric (radiant)
heat and four propane fireplaces. The in-floor electric heat is
seldom used because, as you can imagine, the heat pump is far more
economical to operate. And given that propane costs me $1.05 per
litre ($4.00 per US gallon), the fireplaces are largely relegated to
emergency backup heat in the event of an extended power outage. [And
now that the boiler is wired to the backup generator, the likelihood
that they will be ever be used is pretty low.]

I missed the 11k sq ft part. Yes, the contractors are proposing far
too little capacity. 80Kbtu is barely adequate for a 2000 sq ft house
in this temperate climate.

I'm thinking (certainly hoping) Mike meant 1,100 sq. ft. and not
11,000!

Cheers,
Paul

 

[[email protected]]

For anyone who wants to pull out all the stops, the Friedrich M18YF
has a HSPF of 11 and produces 21,600 BTU/h at 47F and 16,600 BTU/h at
17F. It continues to produce heat (albeit at reduced amounts) all the
way down to 5F.

When does the COP become 1?

Nick

 

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Nick,

When does the COP become 1?

I'm afraid I can't provide you with a proper answer, but I imagine it
would be at some point well below 5F.

In another thread, I mentioned I had specified a York BXH-60 rooftop
heat pump for my new commercial space. According to the
manufacturer's specifications, this particular model, which has a HSPF
of 8.0, produces 57,710 BTUs at 50F, 41,400 BTUs at 30F, 29,700 BTUs
at 10F and 21,300 BTUs at minus 10F. Its power consumption at minus
10F (including that of the indoor fan motor operating at 1,700 CFM and
with an air temperature over the evaporator of 70F) is 2.49 kW. So,
that being the case, even at minus 10F, the COP for this particular
unit is still a quite respectable 2.5. I have to assume a heat pump
with a HSPF of 11 would do even better.

Source: http://www.yorkupg.com/PDFFiles/278726-YTG-A-1106.pdf

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Paul M. Eldridge]

That's true but that's not the issue here. One figure that sticks in
my head from a trade rag is that about half the total demand for
natural gas is now for electricity generation. An absurd situation
artificially created by the new state-sponsored religion, radical
environmentalism, and its church, the EPA.

Natural gas is an almost irreplaceable feedstock for the manufacture
of everything from plastics to freon. It's ludicrous to burn this
feedstock for heat just because a minority has a religious belief
against nuclear and coal fired power plants!

I consider natural gas a premium fuel and one that should not be used
indiscriminately, but from a utility's point of view, it offers a lot
of advantages, not least of which is that its clean burning -- an
important consideration for peaker plants located in urban areas. If
coal and nuclear -- fuels best suited for base load operation -- are
to play a larger role in our generation mix, we must first flatten our
load curve through greater conservation and load management.

I would also suggest we need to be far more aggressive in terms of
combined heat and power (self generation and district heating) and
renewable like wind and small hydro, where such resources are cost
competitive.

I see so much waste and inefficiency all around me and there are days
when I just want to knock heads. Case in point: one of my clients had
replaced a leaking (propane fired) hot water tank that served the
company's executive washrooms with a 120 gallon electric unit that had
been removed from the production floor when it was no longer required.
The problem? It had three 15 kW heating elements! A small, 6-gallon,
1.5 kW tank would have been perfectly adequate for hand washing
purposes and here we have one that sucks back thirty times that! This
costs the firm an additional $4,460.00/year in demand charges alone.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Mike]

Hi, I live in an 11,100 sq ft end of group two story brick row home w/
stone/brick covered front porch. in the Baltimore, MD area (mid Atlantic).
w/ the front facing due south.. The walls are at least two courses of
brick, maybe more, ok replacement aluminum storm windows, it's got no
accessible attic, 8' 2" ceilings w/ electric baseboard heat.\ and window
ac. I'm going to upgrade the heating and AC. I'm getting the first
floor gutted leaving the plaster on the walls then framed w/ standard wood
studs, then insulated (what should I used for insulation?) into one room
appx 16'' x 30. Some months ago I posted a similar message in some the
same news groups and several posters recommended a system that includes a
high efficiency heat pump, well the contracotrs here are not sold on heat
pumps I din't know if they don't have experience w/ the new HPs. I
included two estimates to install a HVAC system. What do you think? How
would you design the system differently. BTW, electricity costs increase
50% in cost June 1st of this year.
*************************************************************************************.
quote by a local licensed contractor:
Install one new Goodman 80% A.F.U.E., Model #GMS8/GDS8/GHS8 Multi Speed
Gas Furnace.
Install one new Goodman A-Coil, 13 seer.
Install one new Goodman High-Efficiency Condenser 2 1/2 ton, 13 seer.
Run complete new ductwork throughout 1st and 2nd floor to supply
sufficient outlets to each room on 1st and
2nd floor.
Run one new cold air return duct to 1st and 2nd floor.
Run all new copper refrigeration lines to Condenser.
Install all necessary registers and grilles.
Install one new heat/cool thermostat.

Additional: All wiring, patching, painting and boxing in of ductwork to be
done by others.
Warranty: 20 Years Manufacturers Warranty on Heat-Exchanger.
10 Years Manufacturers Warranty on All Parts. (Until June
30, 2007)
1 Year Warranty on Labor.
Cost: $8,400.00, $3,500.00 Down, $4,400.00 Due upon installing ductwork
and equipment, $500.00 Due upon start up.
________________________________________________________________________________
another quote from licensed Trane contractor. - hand written so I can't
paste it.

all duct work & returns, Trane XL 14; 2.5 Ton air conditioner, 14 SEER
puron unit; Trane XL 80 % efficient gas furnace 80,000 btu unit w/ coil &
programmable thermostat. same warranty on equipment.
$9,900.00

both units are 80% because they claim they can't vent properly an higher
efficiency units.

TYPO ALERT! ! ! ! !

I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a 11,000 sq house.

Sorry

 

[Mike]

Just _how_ are "specifics" going to help _you_ 'Mike'?
And, if your contractors are not sold on heat pumps then
you should not be sold on what they sell you.

Four years ago, when I bought this house I tried to find a reliable
contractor who would install a tankless water heater
end of story is I never got a tankless water heater because I couldn't find
a local heating plumber guy who could talk knowledgably about installing
one. BTW, error ibn my original post - I live in a 1,100 sq ft house not a
11, 000 sq ft house.