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Asking for Recommendations for New HVAC in a Row Home

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Paul M. Eldridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Mike,

Paul would you explain the acronyms? How much is the Friedrich M18YF and
how much would it cost to install it.?

The two acronyms most frequently used when discussing heat pumps are
COP and HSPF.

COP stands for "coefficient of performance" and, simply put, it's a
measure of the amount of energy provided in relation to what is
consumed by its operation (higher numbers are better). So, for
example, if a heat pump has a COP of 3, it means that three kWh of
heat are transferred into the living space for every one kWh of
electricity consumed.

The COP of an air source heat pump will vary according to the unit's
design (like cars, some are inherently more fuel efficient than
others) and the outdoor operating temperature (heat pump performance
degrades in colder weather). By comparison, electric resistance heat
has a COP of 1.0 -- 1 kWh of electricity equals 1 kWh of heat.

HSPF is short for "heating season performance factor" and represents
the amount of heat supplied by the heat pump over the course of the
heating season (in BTU), divided by the amount of power consumed
during this timeframe (in Watt-hours). Once again, higher numbers are
better. The current minimum HSPF rating for heat pumps is 7.7; that
means every heat pump must provide a minimum of 7.7 BTU for every one
Watt-hour consumed. When comparing the relative efficiency of two or
more models, use this number.

To convert HSPF to COP, divide the HSPF rating by 3.4. For example, a
heat pump with a HSPF rating of 8.5 would have a "seasonal COP" of
2.5. In the case of the above-mentioned Friedrich M18YF, a HSPF
rating of 11.0 translates to a seasonal COP of a 3.2.

Once you convert HSPF to COP, you can easily calculate the effective
cost of each kWh of heat provided. If, for example, you pay $0.10 per
kWh for electricity and the heat pump has a seasonal COP of 2.5, your
effective cost for each kWh of heat supplied is just $0.04.

I can't honestly tell you what you could expect to pay for this
particular model, but hopefully someone else can. I'm guessing the
installed cost might be in the range of $3,000.00 to $4,000.00, but
that's just a shot in the dark. Sorry.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Paul M. Eldridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Looks like I've got to look up the obscure refernce to gas in Bush's utility
bill.
short version if a utility generates any amount, at least I believe it's any
amount of electricity by using gas, the most expensive source, they can use
the cost basis for gas to artifically inflate their costs of other methods
of generating
electricity. BGE owned by Constellation is clearly a rip off -
Constellation generates the energy after being given the plants and 1/2 of a
billion dollars to upgrade them (thanks Enron) by Baltimore City or MAryland
tthen BGE charges to deliver the over prices utilities.

I don't know how rates are set in Maryland but isn't there a public
utilities commission that governs such matters? At the very least, I
would expect the state legislature would have some recourse if the
utility acted improperly.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Paul M. Eldridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
What's a demand charge?

Most commercial and industrial customers (and, in some areas,
residential customers) pay for both demand (kW) and energy (kWh).
Utilities must have sufficient generation and transmission and
distribution resources in place to satisfy customer demand at all
times and the higher the peak demand, the more money the utility must
spend to build and operate these facilities. Demand charges are a
more equitable way of allocating these costs among consumers -- the
end result is that customers who place a greater burden on the utility
system (by using large amounts of power at any one point in time) pay
a higher premium for these services.

Cheers,
Paul
 
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geothermaljones

Jan 1, 1970
0
who does a heat loss and what is it? does it matter what time of the years
it is done?

Your contractor should be able to give you a room by room heat loss
calculation
It's the industry standard for calculating the actual heat loss & gain of a
building in any given city
based on the highest & lowest temps...
Try a look at Elitesoft.com or wrightsoft.com & play with the demos.

what is the bin data and where can i find it?

That's a little harder to find...
The ACCA has a book that contains it.
You may be able to Google it...
or find it on the weather underground web site, another Google
I've had good luck with the University of Minnesota school of climatology,
check out your local Universities.

Bin data is a record of the number of hours the temperature is within a
"bin" of 5 dF increments.
it usually starts low at -30 to -26 then -25 to -21, -20 to -16, & so on, up
to a bin of 115 to 120 or so...
you'll find the low end bins are a relatively small percentage of the actual
heating season hours.


good luck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.
 
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Paul M. Eldridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Geez, I just did this one in another group. Don't forget EBP
and TBP !! :)

Oh yeah... balance points... perhaps we save that discussion for
another day? :)

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Paul M. Eldridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Paul, a typical bill for me (I only heat the dining room unless it's in
the single digits during the winter and rarely turn on the heat upstairs
except for the built in electric heater in the wall of the bathroom. The
electric utility rate is still being subsidized because the full unregulated
rates were going to take effect within months of a statewide election, so
they floated a one year bond issue to keep a cap on the rate, which is going
to increase at least 46% on June 1st. Not sure about gas subsidy

my bge feb bill
1995 kWh including delivery charges 264.03
gas 18 therms 17.27
delivery charge for the 18 therms 18.76 (note the delivery charge is
more the commodity charge)

Based on the above costs can you tell me what the cost differences is
between gas and electric?

Hi Mike,

The BGE website is poorly organized and I've just about given up
trying to make sense of their rate schedules. It's a complete mess.

Based on your billing data, it looks like you're currently paying
$0.1323 per kWh. I had calculated your rate to be $0.1273, so I
suspect the difference is due to the inclusion of the monthly account
fee ($7.50), plus any other adjustments I may have overlooked. I
believe the new (higher) summer rate will be $0.1409, or something
close to that. Frankly, for a utility that is predominately coal and
nuclear driven, these rates are a whole lot higher than what I would
expect.

From what I can tell, natural gas is currently selling at $1.0243 per
therm (commodity charge), plus an additional $0.2561 for delivery.
There is a further account fee of $13.00 per month, which appears to
have been lumped together with these variable expenses -- like the
$7.50 account fee for the electrical portion of your bill, we need to
back out this fixed charge; otherwise, we can't properly compare the
consumption related costs of these two fuels.

So, if I'm correct in saying this, your winter rate currently stands
at $0.127 per kWh and natural gas comes in at $1.28 per therm. As
mentioned, at these rates, the annual operating cost of a mid
efficiency heat pump (HSPF of 8.5) and a mid efficiency gas furnace
are pretty much the same. What we need to ask ourselves is which of
these two fuel choices will likely be the low cost option, one, five
or ten years from now.

Keep in mind that natural gas prices have fallen over the past year
due to the fact that the last two winters have been unusually mild.
Will we be so fortunate next year? Only time will tell.

Also, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it appears BGE signed a
couple power purchase agreements at a time when electricity costs were
significantly higher than they are today. Those contracts are due to
expire over the next two years and in light of today's lower market
prices, this could have a positive effect on electricity prices, at
least over the near term.

I wish I could provide you with clear direction, but there are so many
unknowns as they pertain to this particular utility. You would be
wise to do your own digging in this area (e.g., local media coverage,
consumer groups, regulatory filings, press releases, PUC documents,
etc.). But even at that, it's likely to be one big crapshoot. Good
luck!

Cheers,
Paul
 
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Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mike said:
Four years ago, when I bought this house I tried to find a reliable
contractor who would install a tankless water heater
end of story is I never got a tankless water heater because I couldn't find
a local heating plumber guy who could talk knowledgably about installing
one.

Time for school to learn a new trade? Just think, you'd be the only one in
town that understood them.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mike said:
They claim the problem is venting because they mostly vent consendation (?)
and they way my house is built it'll have to vent into the alleyt a throuh
fare or
my cement deck which is a walkway.


Like I said.... keep looking for a competent HVAC contractor.
 
G

Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mike said:
they said building codes don't permit vent over walkways and alleys because
it freezes and creates a safety hazard. they also told me its cool to the
touch and vents using pvc.


It's VERY unlikey that you have no place to vent a 90+ furnace.
 
Neon John said:
Few if any use dry radiators. All steam turbines use water-cooled
condensers operated in a vacuum (the vapor pressure of water at the
condensing temperature, essentially.) Plants located in arid regions
use some sort of evaporative cooling tower that returns cooled
condenser water considerably under ambient. Of course, here in the
east where water is everywhere, they locate the plant on a river or
creek bank whenever possible.

A couple of years ago, FPL proposed a natural gas version with 100 F
water vapor inside dry radiators right next to Limerick, right next to
the Perkiomen Creek.
Off the top of my head, seems like the typical figure used in the
business is 2% from generator to outlet.

Wow. Not much.
Don't know about NREL. I only know that when I lived in the area in
the 80s nobody even considered heat pumps because of the low
temperatures. I spent a decent part of this last winter in the region
and could detect no global warming at all :)

Perhaps things have changed. IIRC one Canadian site/CSA standard talks
about producing useful heat at -15 to -25C without backup. We might make
ice in a circular swimming pool with a solar cover in Baltimore :)

Nick
 
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Mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
A couple of years ago, FPL proposed a natural gas version with 100 F
water vapor inside dry radiators right next to Limerick, right next to
the Perkiomen Creek.


Wow. Not much.

Some of the non technical readers (me) are really interested in technical
postsa the techies write
but don't have a clue eg,

*And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
*>>>the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max
*>>>and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.
*>Don't know about NREL. I only know that when I lived in the area in
*>>the 80s nobody even considered heat pumps because of the low
*>>temperatures. I spent a decent part of this last winter in the region
*>>and could detect no global warming at all :)

This winter we had a two week stretch oif weather in the teens or below at
night and teens or twenties during the day.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Or you could move to a climate that doesn't require it. We have never had
a/c, and our heating system (a wood stove) doesn't require a breaker. How
are you with -40 in winter ;-)
 
N

no spam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Miserably and then died in early middle age.

Feel free to try out that lifestyle. Just pull the breaker on your
HVAC, open the windows and see how long you last. Major myth: you
don't "acclimate". You simply learn not to bitch about it so much.

Most people do acclimate. Ever notice how COLD the first 40 degree day of
the fall feel vs how WARM the first 40 degree day of spring feels? In the
fall you'll see people wearing sweaters and jackets, in the spring they'll
be wearing shorts.
I spent part of my youth in an un-air conditioned house. Frankly, I'd
stop eating before I'd stop the AC.

I thought the same thing until I went all last summer in south GA w/o AC. 2
p.m. to sundown was a little hard to handle but I made it. If I don't get a
little more income its looking like I might be spending another summer w/o
AC. One reason I'm wondering about using a home made heat pump for a little
cooling. IOW, I'm thinking about pumping water through a couple of hundred
feet of buried pipe then through an old tractor radiator with a fan. Not
going to cool the entire place but at least the room with the computers
could stay cool.

FYI, this from a guy who suffered a heat injury years ago and can't handle
heat.
 
U

udarrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
no said:
Most people do acclimate. Ever notice how COLD the first 40 degree day of
the fall feel vs how WARM the first 40 degree day of spring feels? In the
fall you'll see people wearing sweaters and jackets, in the spring they'll
be wearing shorts.



I thought the same thing until I went all last summer in south GA w/o AC. 2
p.m. to sundown was a little hard to handle but I made it. If I don't get a
little more income its looking like I might be spending another summer w/o
AC. One reason I'm wondering about using a home made heat pump for a little
cooling. IOW, I'm thinking about pumping water through a couple of hundred
feet of buried pipe then through an old tractor radiator with a fan. Not
going to cool the entire place but at least the room with the computers
could stay cool.

FYI, this from a guy who suffered a heat injury years ago and can't handle
heat.
There are other workable options. Buy a good small window (room) unit
and follow the instructions on my linked page.

That will get you through the summer perhaps much more comfortable than
you could imagine.
You can use it later in a bedroom and turn the central unit to a higher
TH temperature at night to save on electric bills.

Read it carefully:
http://www.udarrell.com/airconditioner_current_temperature_btuh_charting.html


My little half-ton 6,000-BTUH 9.7-EER Remote Control - Whirlpool -
Quite Partner Series, is fantastic performer!
The Initial Cost in 2002 was very low, and it saves a lot money every
day I use it as compared to other options.
- udarrell
 
Mike said:
Some of the non technical readers (me) are really interested in technical
postsa the techies write but don't have a clue eg,

*And is Baltimore really too cold for an air-source heat pump? NREL says
*>>>the coldest month is January, with a 31.8 F average temp and a 40.2 max

That much seems easy to understand...
*>>>and 650 Btu/ft^2-day of sun on the ground and 1050 on a south wall.

For this, you might want to know that a Btu is a unit of energy,
about the same as the energy in a kitchen match. Houses need heat
energy in wintertime.
This winter we had a two week stretch oif weather in the teens or below at
night and teens or twenties during the day.

Fuel bills depend more on average temperatures than extreme temperatures.

Nick
 
D

Dave Martindale

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon John said:
Feel free to try out that lifestyle. Just pull the breaker on your
HVAC, open the windows and see how long you last. Major myth: you
don't "acclimate". You simply learn not to bitch about it so much.

Depends a lot on the climate. I've lived in or near Vancouver BC for 12
years. For most of those years, we had no air conditioning at all, and
it was OK. Vancouver in the summer tends to be hot but dry, or humid
but cool, both of which are OK. Hot *and* humid weather seems to occupy
about 1 week a year, and we could live through that.

But the last few years, it seems that hot humid weather has been lasting
4 weeks or more a year (climate change?). So now we have one 6000 BTU
air conditioner for the bedroom. We'll see how long that seems
adequate.

(We also have a dehumidifier in the basement, which also helps deal with
humidity in the rest of the house).

Dave
 
M

Mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
Time for school to learn a new trade? Just think, you'd be the only one in
town that understood them.

Interesting proposition but that would be real tough to do right now.
 
M

Mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's VERY unlikey that you have no place to vent a 90+ furnace.

After reading these posts I surely am getting several more estimates from
different contractors.
 
M

Mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul M. Eldridge said:
I don't know how rates are set in Maryland but isn't there a public
utilities commission that governs such matters? At the very least, I
would expect the state legislature would have some recourse if the
utility acted improperly.

Under the previous administration the PUC was staffed and chaired by energy
insiders and the feeling is they
did just about whatever the energy industry wanted. The current governor
appears to have done a good balanced job of
selecting staff for the PUC.
 
M

Mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wish I could provide you with clear direction, but there are so many
unknowns as they pertain to this particular utility. You would be
wise to do your own digging in this area (e.g., local media coverage,
consumer groups, regulatory filings, press releases, PUC documents,
etc.). But even at that, it's likely to be one big crapshoot. Good
luck!

Cheers,
Paul
Thanks for the helpful explanation of the trade acronyms. I don't believe
BGE is motivate to clean up their website or otherwise offer needed
information to consumers. Here's a piece of local triva - the wife of the
Constellation CEO is or was a popular cheer leader for the Ravens football
team that is 'til Constellation Energy revealed they were jacking up the E
rates by 72% last year,
I'm tad pessimistic about deregulated energy and believe delivery charges
and the costs needed to upgraded the power grid to accommodate electricity
from other suppliers. (power grids were never designed to carry power from
multiple vendors FWIW electricity is one of the most unlikely commodities to
be marketed competitively because it cannot be stored or transmitted
significant distances and the stress it puts on existing power grids.)will
cause rates to escalate for both G & E. In some areas the delivery charges
already costs more than the electricity. I agree w/ you it's a crap shoot,
but energy from domestic sources should be more dependable than imported
energy. In one of your earlier posts you made a very good case for the cost
of gas continuing to escalate.

Mike
 
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