why 60-40 solder?

[jakdedert]

Showing that Arnold is not just another pretty face. Implementing RoHS
as mandated by the EU for solders may actually cause the release of greater
amounts of toxins into the environment than use of traditional lead-tin
alloys. There have been studies that address this issue, and the "benefit"
of EU-style RoHS is far from clear and certainly not unalloyed (pun intentional).

So EU-style RoHS regulation for solder:
1) results in poorer quality products
2) may actually worsen the environment relative to what would be with use of lead-tin
Sounds like typical politco-think. Jump too soon on some bandwagon because it sounds
good, then refuse to even look publically at the evidence that perhaps it was a mistake.
Just quietly grant exemptions to pressure groups with enough lobbying clout or soft
money ...

Politicians, Bah Humbug. (And, yes, I vote; not just complain.)


Arfa Daily wrote:

Agree completely with the above. IMM, the problem is not lead content
of equipment in use, but what happens to it after useful life. I assume
the original intent of the legislation was the same, although I've not
followed either the issue or the thread till now.

In that vein, the greater issue is that there are so many things being
disposed of, and disposed of irresponsibly.

Were it the case, that consumer electronics were not so 'disposable',
the problem would be much less dire (if indeed it is so, even now). How
many of us here--who have sniffing solder fumes daily for 40 or more
years--have any significant amount of it in our systems? I would guess,
little more than the population as a whole.

If things were made to last and be repairable and/or upgradeable...and
finally *responsibly* disposable/recyclable; we wouldn't be in this pickle.

jak

 

[Tim Shoppa]

Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.

For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.

Tim.

 

[Michael Kennedy]

Agree completely with the above. IMM, the problem is not lead content of
equipment in use, but what happens to it after useful life. I assume the
original intent of the legislation was the same, although I've not
followed either the issue or the thread till now.

In that vein, the greater issue is that there are so many things being
disposed of, and disposed of irresponsibly.

Were it the case, that consumer electronics were not so 'disposable', the
problem would be much less dire (if indeed it is so, even now). How many
of us here--who have sniffing solder fumes daily for 40 or more
years--have any significant amount of it in our systems? I would guess,
little more than the population as a whole.

If things were made to last and be repairable and/or upgradeable...and
finally *responsibly* disposable/recyclable; we wouldn't be in this
pickle.

jak

Ah, but thats not how the world thinks these days.. Especailly in America.
People want new stuff all the time. Look at cell phones and TVs. I hear in
parts of the country people throw away perfectly good CRT TVs because they
are not thin and flat!?!? I wish I could get my hands on a nice 32-36" CRT
TV that someone is upgrading. I don't like these new display types because
they are almost all Wide screen and therefore distort the picture or have
huge bars on each side of the screen. The picture quality increase of HDTV
is neglible from a sutiable viewing distance unless of course you are using
it as a computer monitor.

Mike

 

[Michael Kennedy]

Ditto. I'd love to know about any laws banning leaded solder in the USA
so I can get a jump on starting my new multimillion-dollar recycled home-
electronics business.

For residential plumbing, lead solder has been illegal in the US since
1988 or so.

Tim.

Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

Mike

 

[Michael Kennedy]

As 99% of electronics that consumers buy originates in places other
than in the USA you'll end up with exactly the same Chinese, Korean
and Japanese crap that RoHS has forced on Europe, it might have some
RoHS components, it might have lead free solder but it will have what
the production plant has to hand and what stickers they have. You CAN
pay for proper quality control but it costs. Produce it within your
own borders and you might end up with something that will last, but on
the downside it will nearly always cost ten times as much as the
import.

It is impossible to get it through thick politicians heads that
solidly built equipment with 60/40 solder and replaced every 10-20
years is much better for the environment than stuff that barely makes
it into the consumers home before going completely tits up.

This is my current problem, I need to get a new tv. I don't think I can make
my old 1988 Sylvania 28" run much longer. The tube is getting weak. But I
don't want to spend $800 on a TV that will last 3 years die and be un
servicable.

Mike

 

[jakdedert]

Michael Kennedy wrote:

I wish I could get my hands on a nice 32-36" CRT
TV that someone is upgrading. I don't like these new display types because
they are almost all Wide screen and therefore distort the picture or have
huge bars on each side of the screen. The picture quality increase of HDTV
is neglible from a sutiable viewing distance unless of course you are using
it as a computer monitor.

Agree about HD quality. In any case, it's only as good as the source,
and my cable system introduces some pretty serious artifacts and noise
into the analog line. Digital might be better if I had it. IMO,
everyday HD, when I've seen it, has been distinctly underwhelming. I've
seen some HD monitors, connected directly to the source--which were
almost stunning.

Check your local Craigslist for CRT monitors and TV's. I see them every
day...especially the big ones. Take along a couple of friends if you
find one, however. They are HEAVY!

jak

 

[jakdedert]

Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.

jak

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

How can you tell? FWIW, I think the ban on lead in plumbing makes a lot
of sense. Still, I'd think that there is very little--if any--lead in
actual contact with the water in a properly sweated joint.

Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.

 

[jakdedert]

Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.

Actually, it's been posited that the use of lead plumbing was one of the
causes of the decline of the Roman Empire. That's just a story I've
heard, and upon what I based my opinion. The truth of it, and the
chemical reaction involved is beyond my experience.

jak

 

[none]

Nor does the lead dissolve in water - lead pipes were in use for hundreds
of years. Of course it may depend on the type of water. Hard water coats
the insides of the pipes.

Look up lead solubility in water and you will find some interesting
papers. The type of chlorination has a big effect on the solubility
of lead. There are other factors about what is in the pipes and
water. Your best hope is that the scale stays Pb++ and that the lead
get covered.

Lead from the pipes showed up as a problem for the Romans.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Michael Kennedy wrote:

Agree about HD quality. In any case, it's only as good as the source, and
my cable system introduces some pretty serious artifacts and noise into
the analog line. Digital might be better if I had it. IMO, everyday HD,
when I've seen it, has been distinctly underwhelming. I've seen some HD
monitors, connected directly to the source--which were almost stunning.

Check your local Craigslist for CRT monitors and TV's. I see them every
day...especially the big ones. Take along a couple of friends if you find
one, however. They are HEAVY!

jak

On a recent trip to Vegas, I called into the Sony shop in Caesar's mall, to
have a look at the latest offerings and see if they were any different your
side of the pond. There was a huge - 42 maybe even bigger - LCD screen
running HD from a Blu Ray DVD player, and for the very first time with any
flat screen that I've seen, I have to say that it was absolutely stunning.
It was like looking at the very best quality cinema display. It was actually
showing a clip from Pirates 3. But the problem is that whilst these
digitally created and displayed pictures are lovely at native resolution,
when you try to watch 'normal' broadcast TV on them, they look perfectly
dreadful. I don't know about over there, but here, at the moment, there is
little 'broadcast' HD, so if you want to see such a TV working at its best,
then it's got to be, for the most part, from an HD video source. For mainly
this reason, I am currently sticking with my 34" CRT Tosh, which gives a
pretty much faultless display on any content. I am looking forward to SED
screens becoming commercially available, as I have read that these give the
best of both worlds, with an extremely 'CRT-like' picture.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

Mike

Many old houses over here still have lead pipework feeding them with water.
Certainly, the house that I lived in and drank the water in for many years
as a kid, had lead pipes. Leaded solder was banned here some years ago for
'open' pipework systems, but as far as I know, there was no such restriction
for 'closed' systems such as central heating. Lead is not soluble in water
anyway, so I see no reason that water passing through lead pipes, let alone
just moving past leaded solder joints, should become contaminated. I have a
friend who is a plumber, and he told me that it is very much harder to get a
guaranteed good joint first time, with lead-free solder, due to the very odd
melting and re-solidifying characteristics that it has.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

I think it's perfectly legal to rework boards using lead/tin solder if the
boards were originally produced with it and because of that you can still
buy led/tin rosin fluxed solder.

Absolutely correct. You can actually legally rework a lead-free board using
standard leaded solder, if the item was placed on the market before July
2006, although some experts warn specifically against this practice,
claiming that mixing unleaded and leaded solder leads to an even more
potentially unreliable joint, than lead-free alone ...

Arfa

 

[Only Just]

Look up lead solubility in water and you will find some interesting
papers. The type of chlorination has a big effect on the solubility
of lead. There are other factors about what is in the pipes and
water. Your best hope is that the scale stays Pb++ and that the lead
get covered.

Lead from the pipes showed up as a problem for the Romans.

It is a good thing that lead was removed from pipes being that I have
experienced lead soldered joints (Poss not sweated properly too) dissolving
and leaking and usually in easy inaccessible places, I have also experienced
lead soldered copper pipes in refrigerators where the solder has totally
"Dissolved" to just a paste (It were used in older refrigerators to act as a
heat exchanger for the gas to and from the evaporator to improve efficiency)
so I am sure it can and often does leak into the water system. That as well
as the availability of cheaper higher temp brazing equipment and cheaper
silver solder (Often without flux required) available providing better and
more permanent joints is a better and safer alternative.
Justy

 

[bz]

Well there is lead solder in my house and I drink the water. No lead
poisoning yet..

Mike

Many old houses over here still have lead pipework feeding them with
water. Certainly, the house that I lived in and drank the water in for
many years as a kid, had lead pipes. Leaded solder was banned here some
years ago for 'open' pipework systems, but as far as I know, there was
no such restriction for 'closed' systems such as central heating. Lead
is not soluble in water anyway, .....
http://www.lenntech.com/elements-and-water/lead-and-water.htm

Under normal conditions lead does not react with water. However, when lead
comes in contact with moist air reactivity with water increases. A small
lead oxide (PbO) layer forms at the surface of the metal. When both oxygen
and water are present, metallic lead is converted to lead hydroxide (Pb(OH)
2)
[unquote]

Some other interesting info in the above cited article.















--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Actually, it's been posited that the use of lead plumbing was one of the
causes of the decline of the Roman Empire. That's just a story I've
heard, and upon what I based my opinion. The truth of it, and the
chemical reaction involved is beyond my experience.

jak

It wasn't lead pipes, it was 'Lead Acetate', a toxic sweetener made
from lead:

<http://www.google.com/search?q=suga...ox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYA>


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[msg]

It wasn't lead pipes, it was 'Lead Acetate', a toxic sweetener made
from lead:

<snip>

Wasn't there also a problem with lead-based face makeup both in Rome and
also until modern times?

Michael

 

[Sjouke Burry]

What about lead water pipes?

I've seen an ad from the '20s, from the Lead Institute (or something like
that), proclaiming how wonderful it was that the Roman Empire distributed
water through lead pipes!

Location:Netherlandds.
Until last year I had a lead pipe between the
street main feed and my water meter(copper pipe inside).
When the pipe was replaced, there was 1.5 mm deposit inside
the old pipe, and no possible access to the lead pipe.
But of course we do not chlorinate our water supply, and
the water is always moderately hard(and very tasty).
So we can safely drink it without gagging, and without
lead and chlorine poisoning.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Location:Netherlandds.
Until last year I had a lead pipe between the
street main feed and my water meter(copper pipe inside).
When the pipe was replaced, there was 1.5 mm deposit inside
the old pipe, and no possible access to the lead pipe.
But of course we do not chlorinate our water supply, and
the water is always moderately hard(and very tasty).
So we can safely drink it without gagging, and without
lead and chlorine poisoning.

I replaced some lead pipe in my parent's house some time ago - it is in a
very soft water area. Out of curiosity I sectioned it and looked at it
carefully. The original tooling marks - presumably where the pipe was
formed by forcing through a die - was still clear and defined. In other
words no signs of erosion in over 100 years.

 

[Arfa Daily]

I replaced some lead pipe in my parent's house some time ago - it is in a
very soft water area. Out of curiosity I sectioned it and looked at it
carefully. The original tooling marks - presumably where the pipe was
formed by forcing through a die - was still clear and defined. In other
words no signs of erosion in over 100 years.

As we'd probably expect, Dave ... ;-)

Arfa