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While discharging, battery voltage increases?

J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm discharging a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) AA battery at 500
milliamps. After the first minute or so it shows 1.05 V. Between then
and three hours later, the voltage steadily rises to 1.08 V. Is there
something wrong with the battery analyzer, or can battery voltage
increase very slightly as the battery discharges?

Or maybe I'm reading the analyzer voltage that produces the 500
milliamps through the battery? And that's the voltage required to
produce the 500 milliamps? As expected, several other batteries show
the voltage levels decreasing as they discharge, but this one is
consistently unusual.

I'm using the Maha PowerEx MH-C9000 battery charger/analyzer.

Thanks.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Dope"
I'm discharging a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) AA battery at 500
milliamps. After the first minute or so it shows 1.05 V.


** So it is completely flat in one minute ??????????

Wot asinine drivel is this brain dead cretin on about now ??





....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"BobWanker"
"John Dope"
It's probably not applying a constant load to the battery.


** Correct - but can you also explain the unusual behaviour of just one
particular cell?

And the wrong voltage reading.

1.05 volts = a flat cell.



....... Phil
 

neon

Oct 21, 2006
1,325
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
1,325
The reason is that it get hot and voltage rises got them hotter you will find a dead cell with 2v or more . don't put a load on it because it will die immidiately to zilch.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm discharging a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) AA battery at 500
milliamps. After the first minute or so it shows 1.05 V. Between then
and three hours later, the voltage steadily rises to 1.08 V. Is there
something wrong with the battery analyzer, or can battery voltage
increase very slightly as the battery discharges?

change of temperature could do that possibly?
 
R

ransley

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Dope"


** So it is completely flat in one minute ??????????

Wot asinine drivel is this brain dead cretin on about now ??

......  Phil

Load probably varies,
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"BobWanker"


** Correct - but can you also explain the unusual behaviour of just one particular cell?

And the wrong voltage reading.

1.05 volts = a flat cell.

But there is something odd happens with matched sets of NiMH batteries
in some digicam applications. I have several sets for a Pentax istD
digicam. What I have noticed is that one cell always appears weaker
than all the others by a significant margin and the camera fails early
with "low battery" when NiMH cells are used ending up with 3 good ones
and one flat. The first one to go flat kills it. The odd thing is that
I suspect the flat is almost always in the same battery slot - as if
there is some extra burden on that specific cell. Using flash heavily
or excessive cold generally tips it over the edge more quickly.

I have taken to putting dots on the failing cells but there is no
obvious pattern - it isn't same cell failing every time due to higher
self discharge or internal factors. I have noted the position where
the cell most likely to fail resides and swap it out on failure. This
usually works and has better odds than perm 4 from 8 with 2 duds.

More curious still single use Duracells with higher terminal voltage
which I use when the NiMH have all died always seem to discharge
evenly. I would be interested if anyone can explain this.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
D

Don Stauffer

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I'm discharging a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) AA battery at 500
milliamps. After the first minute or so it shows 1.05 V. Between then
and three hours later, the voltage steadily rises to 1.08 V. Is there
something wrong with the battery analyzer, or can battery voltage
increase very slightly as the battery discharges?

Or maybe I'm reading the analyzer voltage that produces the 500
milliamps through the battery? And that's the voltage required to
produce the 500 milliamps? As expected, several other batteries show
the voltage levels decreasing as they discharge, but this one is
consistently unusual.

I'm using the Maha PowerEx MH-C9000 battery charger/analyzer.

Thanks.

If the analyzer is applying only a light load, that is possible- the
battery heats up a bit, and the light load voltage is temperature
dependent. But 500 mA is not a light load, so that is surprising if it
REALLY is discharging at that rate.
 
A

ASAAR

Jan 1, 1970
0
But there is something odd happens with matched sets of NiMH batteries
in some digicam applications. I have several sets for a Pentax istD
digicam. What I have noticed is that one cell always appears weaker
than all the others by a significant margin and the camera fails early
with "low battery" when NiMH cells are used ending up with 3 good ones
and one flat. The first one to go flat kills it. The odd thing is that
I suspect the flat is almost always in the same battery slot - as if
there is some extra burden on that specific cell. Using flash heavily
or excessive cold generally tips it over the edge more quickly.

I've noticed that as well, but it's to be expected when the
batteries are used too long between recharges. Cells in a matched
set don't all have the same capacity. They're just placed in sets
that have tighter tolerances, but one of them will *always* be have
less capacity than the rest, and this 'weaker' cell will be the
first to die.

More curious still single use Duracells with higher terminal voltage
which I use when the NiMH have all died always seem to discharge
evenly. I would be interested if anyone can explain this.

Alkaline and NiMH batteries may have large differences in their
measured voltage curves as they're used, but both really discharge
fairly evenly. The big difference is that alkalines don't have
voltages that decline precipitously when they're nearly exhausted.
If you measure individual voltages of alkaline cells as they're
used, there may be differences, but they're fairly close, and they
remain usable at much lower voltages than rechargeables. If
measured, you'll probably find voltages clustered around 1.1v, 0.9v,
0.7v and 0.5v. Using the last as an example, with 4 AA cells you
might measure 0.53v, 0.50v, 0.48v and 0.47v under load. Cameras are
different in that they tend to require slightly more than 1.0 or 1.1
volts per cell to keep operating. When cameras exhaust their AA
alkaline cells, they're far from being really exhausted, will
probably show more than 1.2 volts if measured without a load, and
can continue to be used for hours, sometimes many dozens of hours in
devices that don't require high loads, such as analog radios (at low
or medium volume), LED lights, etc.

NiMH cells also discharge uniformly, but at the point were they're
nearly exhausted (somewhere between 1.1v and 1.0v) the first to
become completely exhausted will show a very rapid drop in voltage
as it plunges from 1.0v to 0.0volts. The remaining 3 NiMH cells
will still be pumping out more than 3.0 volts and you'd really want
the device they're powering to shut down at this point, because if
it doesn't, the depleted cell will start to become reverse charged,
damaging or killing it. This is true even though the 3 remaining
cells may have less than 1% of their capacity remaining. Most
digital cameras require more than 3.0volts to operate, so they won't
tend to kill NiMH cells, but if you don't remove them for recharging
until the camera shuts down, one of the cells is pretty much
guaranteed to appear near dead in a battery tester. The harm in
doing this repeatedly depends on the individual camera, ie, at how
low the voltage of the complete battery set has to go before it
shuts down. At the point that digital cameras shut down when
alkalines are used, they'll have a good deal of unused capacity, and
can probably provide a little more than 1.1 or 1.2 volts under light
loads to other devices for a long time.

It's possible that one or two cells may be loaded more heavily in
certain slots, and if that's the case it might be to provide a lower
voltage for clock or memory chips at very low currents. In this
case the effect would be noticeable only if the devices are used
very intermittently, where the batteries would last quite a while
before needing to be replaced, depending on design anywhere from a
couple of months to a year or more. This can be ruled out if you
open the case and check the battery compartment to see if it has no
more than two wires connecting the device to the battery pack.
 
D

Dave Cohen

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I'm discharging a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) AA battery at 500
milliamps. After the first minute or so it shows 1.05 V. Between then
and three hours later, the voltage steadily rises to 1.08 V. Is there
something wrong with the battery analyzer, or can battery voltage
increase very slightly as the battery discharges?

Or maybe I'm reading the analyzer voltage that produces the 500
milliamps through the battery? And that's the voltage required to
produce the 500 milliamps? As expected, several other batteries show
the voltage levels decreasing as they discharge, but this one is
consistently unusual.

I'm using the Maha PowerEx MH-C9000 battery charger/analyzer.

Thanks.

I have an .mp3 player that uses a single AAA. I notice the charge
indicator on the device starts of full, shows partial charge after usage
and will return to show a full charge when next turned on. Never really
gave the matter much thought.
Dave Cohen
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
To confirm if its the charger/analyzer or the battery:

Try putting the "bad" battery into a different slot in the
analyzer compared to a known good one in the same slot that the
"bad" battery was in. If the known good one acts as the "bad" one
then you know the analyzer is bad.
0.03v is really not something to worry about.

I was partly curious. After a charge/discharge/charge cycle, I
switched the two batteries and started discharging them again at 500
milliamps, paying closer attention. The bad battery in the other
slot rose from about .96 V slowly and steadily upwards. Later, after
it reaches 1.15 V or whatever and is significantly discharged, it
probably starts going back downwards (as I recall from the last
time). Still, it charged to a higher capacity than the other same
type battery. I just threw it away.

Batteries are not nearly consistent as I would have guessed.
 
M

MuMu

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm discharging a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) AA battery at 500
milliamps. After the first minute or so it shows 1.05 V. Between then
and three hours later, the voltage steadily rises to 1.08 V. Is there
something wrong with the battery analyzer, or can battery voltage
increase very slightly as the battery discharges?

Or maybe I'm reading the analyzer voltage that produces the 500
milliamps through the battery? And that's the voltage required to
produce the 500 milliamps? As expected, several other batteries show
the voltage levels decreasing as they discharge, but this one is
consistently unusual.

I'm using the Maha PowerEx MH-C9000 battery charger/analyzer.

Thanks.

Between the first minute and three hours later did you leave it open
circuit ? then the voltage can go up slightly, and it is normal.

M. Moorthi
www.battery-consulting.com
 
J

John Doe

Jan 1, 1970
0
....
Between the first minute and three hours later did you leave it
open circuit ?

Absolutely positively not. It's consistently discharging at 500
milliamps the entire time. After doing another "Break-In and
Analysis" and again discharging but with the two batteries in
opposite battery charger/analyzer slots, the weird battery starts at
about .96 V and slowly rises, hours later to about 1.10 or 1.15
before it starts falling and finishes discharging.
 
R

Robert Monsen

Jan 1, 1970
0
But there is something odd happens with matched sets of NiMH batteries
in some digicam applications. I have several sets for a Pentax istD
digicam. What I have noticed is that one cell always appears weaker
than all the others by a significant margin and the camera fails early
with "low battery" when NiMH cells are used ending up with 3 good ones
and one flat. The first one to go flat kills it. The odd thing is that
I suspect the flat is almost always in the same battery slot - as if
there is some extra burden on that specific cell. Using flash heavily
or excessive cold generally tips it over the edge more quickly.

I have taken to putting dots on the failing cells but there is no
obvious pattern - it isn't same cell failing every time due to higher
self discharge or internal factors. I have noted the position where
the cell most likely to fail resides and swap it out on failure. This
usually works and has better odds than perm 4 from 8 with 2 duds.

More curious still single use Duracells with higher terminal voltage
which I use when the NiMH have all died always seem to discharge
evenly. I would be interested if anyone can explain this.

Regards,
Martin Brown

I wonder what would happen if you put an alkaline in that slot, along
with rechargables in other slots? The evil slot probably is powering
something else as well.

Regards,
Bob Monsen
 
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