Maker Pro
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Transformer issue

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim said:
But will testing catch the ones that are almost sort of not quite shorted
yet, but will be after you ship them to your customer?

I was just gonna say that ...

Increased field returns is the worst that can happen because customer
perception is involved at that point. Cost calculations can become
almost meaningless then. If it was me my decision would be clear, don't
risk it and solder them on by hand until the mfg has definitely and
verifiably fixed the problem.

Keith: Maybe call the decision makers before leaving for the week?
Seriously ...
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
You stop in every couple or few weeks,

Not only are you always wrong, AlwaysWrong, but you're a damned liar,
as well. Of course this is nothing new to anyone who has ever so much
as heard of the Usenet.
and do nothing at all except
spew horseshit into the groups. That is all you do any more. Not that
you ever did much else.

Not only are you always wrong, AlwaysWrong, but you're a damned liar,
as well. Of course this is nothing new to anyone who has ever so much
as heard of the Usenet.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
The vendor has assured us that if the reflow doesn't get them, they'll
live a normal life. I've already asked, more than once.
I was just gonna say that ...

Increased field returns is the worst that can happen because customer
perception is involved at that point. Cost calculations can become
almost meaningless then. If it was me my decision would be clear, don't
risk it and solder them on by hand until the mfg has definitely and
verifiably fixed the problem.

Agreed. Already been there.
Keith: Maybe call the decision makers before leaving for the week?
Seriously ...

Done. I got together with the other hardware engineer and my boss
today and laid out the alternatives, stressing that the owner and the
"CTO" must understand all the alternatives and risks. They can make
the decision.

I think we have something like 2,000 transformers in inventory, if we
could get the new ones today, I'm sure they'd scrap the $2K worth of
inventory without a blink. However, it's the Chinese new year, so
it's taking a while to get new parts made. Manufacturing will pitch a
fit over manually placing that many, though.

BTW, someone suggested another supplier. I grabbed a board we made
about a year ago, with another vendor's transformers on it (we
couldn't get these) and one of two (the others had already been
replaced) failed the test.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
"krakpot ratbag wanker"


** This NOTORIOUS trolling moron never " buys " the truth from anyone.

He seems to have bought the truth from Andrew, as soon as the mechanism
was explained.

Sylvia.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
krw said:
The vendor has assured us that if the reflow doesn't get them, they'll
live a normal life. I've already asked, more than once.


On that one I would not trust the vendor, at least not without having
seen a disected transformer myself. What if the insulation softened and
then solidified again? What if some of it has become really thin?

Agreed. Already been there.


Done. I got together with the other hardware engineer and my boss
today and laid out the alternatives, stressing that the owner and the
"CTO" must understand all the alternatives and risks. They can make
the decision.

Great. That's the right thing to do, you pressed the big alert button
and now everybody is in the know about the situation.

I think we have something like 2,000 transformers in inventory, if we
could get the new ones today, I'm sure they'd scrap the $2K worth of
inventory without a blink. However, it's the Chinese new year, so
it's taking a while to get new parts made. Manufacturing will pitch a
fit over manually placing that many, though.

Allow them time-and-a-half OT, bring in home-made pie and they'll be
happy :)

BTW, someone suggested another supplier. I grabbed a board we made
about a year ago, with another vendor's transformers on it (we
couldn't get these) and one of two (the others had already been
replaced) failed the test.


Drat. But if they used the same sort of wire it's not really a surprise.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Sylvia Else is Dumber than Dog Shit "

"krakpot ratbag wanker"
We're having problems with defective (or damaged in reflow) audio
transformers and I'm not buying what the manufacturer is telling us.

** This NOTORIOUS trolling moron never " buys " the truth from anyone.

A significant number are falling out during manufacturing with what we
originally thought was a low DCR (12-15ohms vs 19ohms nominal)

** So the DCR drops by 30% after reflow soldering and this ass thinks it is
NOT due to shorted turns ?

Maybe the copper wire has suddenly gone superconducting ??

ROTFLMAO !!


Also, I usually see a DCR
change but in a failing transformer both the primary and secondary
*always* have low inductance.

** No fooling ?????

How amazing for it to affect both sides ....

You FUCKING MORON !!!

ROTFL !!

My guess is that something (heat) is damaging the core somehow...


** And making the DCR drop ??????????

Only in some alternative universe inhabited entirely by

UTTER FUCKWITS like Keith Ratbag.

PISS OFF TO HELL YOU DAMN TROLL



...... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Joerg"
krackpot wanker
On that one I would not trust the vendor, at least not without having seen
a disected transformer myself. What if the insulation softened and then
solidified again? What if some of it has become really thin?

** There is guaranteed to be damage to ALL the transformers and some with
shorted adjacent turns going un-noticed at the moment.

Sounds like the Chinese vendor is WELL aware of the problem and has a nice *
line of bullshit * to tell customers all worked out. Standard operating
procedure for such situations.

The idea of using a higher temp grade of winding wire is probably a blatant
lie too.

Firstly, why are they not using it already ???

Secondly, the wire is likely hair fine and getting high temp insulation on
such fine wire is very expensive.



...... Phil
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
He seems to have bought the truth from Andrew, as soon as the mechanism
was explained.

Don't bother with Phyllis, it's off it's meds, again.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
On that one I would not trust the vendor, at least not without having
seen a disected transformer myself. What if the insulation softened and
then solidified again? What if some of it has become really thin?



Great. That's the right thing to do, you pressed the big alert button
and now everybody is in the know about the situation.



Allow them time-and-a-half OT, bring in home-made pie and they'll be
happy :)




Drat.

I wasn't clear. The other vendor's transformers aren't nearly as good
in the application but we couldn't get the one that we found were
failing in reflow. It turns out that the others did too.
But if they used the same sort of wire it's not really a surprise.

....and cores. The construction is the same, so it's no real surprise
that both failed the same way.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Joerg"
krackpot wanker


** There is guaranteed to be damage to ALL the transformers and some with
shorted adjacent turns going un-noticed at the moment.

Sounds like the Chinese vendor is WELL aware of the problem and has a nice *
line of bullshit * to tell customers all worked out. Standard operating
procedure for such situations.

The idea of using a higher temp grade of winding wire is probably a blatant
lie too.

Firstly, why are they not using it already ???

Secondly, the wire is likely hair fine and getting high temp insulation on
such fine wire is very expensive.

You just answered your own question, stupid.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"krakpot ratbag wanker" = Keith Williams = Charlatan

We're having problems with defective (or damaged in reflow) audio
transformers and I'm not buying what the manufacturer is telling us.

** This NOTORIOUS trolling moron never " buys " the truth from anyone.

A significant number are falling out during manufacturing with what we
originally thought was a low DCR (12-15ohms vs 19ohms nominal)

** So the DCR drops by 30% after reflow soldering and this ass thinks it is
NOT due to shorted turns ?

Maybe the copper wire has suddenly gone superconducting ??

ROTFLMAO !!

Also, I usually see a DCR
change but in a failing transformer both the primary and secondary
*always* have low inductance.

** No fooling ?????

How amazing for it to affect both sides ....

You FUCKING MORON !!!

ROTFL !!

My guess is that something (heat) is damaging the core somehow...


** And making the DCR drop ??????????

Only in some alternative universe inhabited entirely by UTTER FUCKWITS
like Keith Ratbag.

PISS OFF TO HELL

YOU FUCKWIT DAMN TROLL



...... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"krakpot ratbag wanker" = Keith Williams = Charlatan

We're having problems with defective (or damaged in reflow) audio
transformers and I'm not buying what the manufacturer is telling us.

** This NOTORIOUS trolling moron never " buys " the truth from anyone.

A significant number are falling out during manufacturing with what we
originally thought was a low DCR (12-15ohms vs 19ohms nominal)

** So the DCR drops by 30% after reflow soldering and this ass thinks it is
NOT due to shorted turns ?

Maybe the copper wire has suddenly gone superconducting ??

ROTFLMAO !!

Also, I usually see a DCR
change but in a failing transformer both the primary and secondary
*always* have low inductance.

** No fooling ?????

How amazing for it to affect both sides ....

You FUCKING MORON !!!

ROTFL !!

My guess is that something (heat) is damaging the core somehow...


** And making the DCR drop ??????????

Only in some alternative universe inhabited entirely by UTTER FUCKWITS
like Keith Ratbag.

PISS OFF TO HELL

YOU FUCKWIT DAMN TROLL



...... Phil
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
"krakpot ratbag wanker" = Keith Williams = Charlatan

Oh, no! Phyllis knows my name. I think he loves me. But Phyllis,
I'll tell you the same thing I tell your Siamese twin, DimBulb. You're
*not* my type. Now go wank off your twin sister, DimBulb.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"krakpot ratbag wanker" = Keith R Williams = a Fucking Charlatan

We're having problems with defective (or damaged in reflow) audio
transformers and I'm not buying what the manufacturer is telling us.

** This NOTORIOUS trolling moron never " buys " the truth from anyone.

A significant number are falling out during manufacturing with what we
originally thought was a low DCR (12-15ohms vs 19ohms nominal)

** So the DCR drops by 30% after reflow soldering and this ass thinks it is
NOT due to shorted turns ?

Maybe the copper wire has suddenly gone superconducting ??

ROTFLMAO !!

Also, I usually see a DCR
change but in a failing transformer both the primary and secondary
*always* have low inductance.

** No fooling ?????

How amazing for it to affect both sides ....

You FUCKING MORON !!!

ROTFL !!

My guess is that something (heat) is damaging the core somehow...


** And making the DCR drop ??????????

Only in some alternative universe inhabited entirely by UTTER FUCKWITS
like Keith Ratbag.

PISS OFF TO HELL !!

YOU FUCKWIT PSYCHO TROLL




...... Phil
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems Phyliss' newreader is stuck, so I'll try to help the poor
bastard out. Here, Phyllis. Here is what you missed so much.


Oh, no! Phyllis knows my name. I think he loves me. But Phyllis,
I'll tell you the same thing I tell your Siamese twin, DimBulb. You're
*not* my type. Now go wank off your twin sister, DimBulb.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Fields"

** Acronyms are ODS ....




..... Phi
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Even if we had the resources, what this going to tell us? We aren't
about to make the transformers. There are only so many suppliers and
none have any that work well enough in the application. They're also
willing to modify them to meet our needs.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
---
Of course I don't know the whole story, but the problem, in my view, is
that you're letting your vendors write the spec's when what they
_should_ be doing is building stuff that meets the spec's _you've_
written.

Well, that worked when I was doing this for
&hughmultinationalwithdeeppocketsandmuchpurchasingclout, not so much
for a small company. However, in this case the specs pretty much are
in our control or at least we approve of any changes. It is a
"custom" part for our application. However, this is a really
manufacturing issue, sot so much as a spec issue. They claim that the
current construction was RoHS compatible when it seems it has problems
with the high temperatures that RoHS requires. BTW, this isn't
unusual for passive components - caps are another problem area.
Kind of like the tail wagging the dog.

Not really.
As for modifying them to meet your needs, it sounds to me like what's
going on is: "That didn't work? OK we'll try something else."

Well, that's really what I'm afraid of. OTOH, the risk is really
manufacturing pain until they can correct the problem. We have a
screen that'll catch 100% of the failing devices. Getting the screen
into ICT will take a little more time.

I'm not sure there is a different approach than "try something else"
an this point. They can't seem to duplicate the problem. We sent 200
back to them for a heat/test cycle. Of the 200 we had 10 fail after
reflow. These had shorted windings (melted insulation). It's clear,
at least to them, that it's an insulation problem, which *should* be
solved by better insulation (and they've agreed to eat the cost).
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks to (almost) all for helping here. I'm pretty confident, now,
that we can fix this thing in short order.
 
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