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Strange control problem -- 3 phase "firing system"

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Ignoramus11506

Jan 1, 1970
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I am redoing my welder by installing a new 3 phase rectifier. To get a
picture of what it is like, see here:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Welding/11-New-Rectifier/

I am using a three phase firing system by PCTI. A diagram of hooking
it up is provided above in a PDF file.

Note that according to PCTI, they wired current control to have input
from a 100 mV shunt, which is what I have (a 100 mV, 200 A shunt).

I think that I connected everything properly. I use a simple divider
as a 5 V voltage transducer on the schematic.

Some thing sare working, for example the voltage adjustment pot seems
to adjust voltage, but see below.

The voltages that the current setup is capable for are from 0 vdc to
150 vdc.

My problems are kind of strange:

1. When I look at voltage with a analog voltmeter (in my welder),
sometimes at higher voltages above 80 volts, the meter pointer becomes
"wobbly" and unstable. For instance, it could be fluctuating between
about 82 and 90 volts. Sometimes it would not do that. It seems to
depend on whether I moved the potentiometer quickly or slowly, if I
adjust the pot slowly, there seems to be less wobble. I will
experiment more tonight.

2. Sometimes when I move the pot to desire voltage higher than about
100 V, the firing system "faults" and displays a "fault" signal.

3. This system can produce current, however, when I desire max
current, it produces just a few amps (like 2-5A), and not the full
200A output. Another tidbit is that before I hooked the current
feedback from the shunt, it was capable of producing full current
(probably limited by transformer) and made a lot of sparks at contact.

Some of the things that I will explore tonight:

1. Double check that my divider for voltage feedback is correctly done.

2. Maybe the voltage feedback needs to be a little stabilised, such as
by adding a capacitor and a resistor or some such?

3. The current regulation seems to be a separate problem. Maybe my
regulator is factory configured for 1 mV or another small value
feedback by mistake (like I said, they said it is configured for 100
mV). If so, that would be an easy fix with a little divider to divide
100 mV to become 1 mV or some such.

This would be surprising, but not bad, as I would be able to reuse my
400 amp shunt if I desire to go to higher amperages than 200A.

So... Has anyone here "debugged" such control systems?

thanks

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Ignoramus11506

Jan 1, 1970
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I have a feeling that my controller is not configured the way I
expected. I think that it is supposed to sense current from a 0-0.0015
volts shunt, and not from a 0-0.050 volts as I expected (and asked).

Will try to make a little divider cur input from current shunt and see
if it helps.

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Glen Walpert

Jan 1, 1970
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I have a feeling that my controller is not configured the way I
expected. I think that it is supposed to sense current from a 0-0.0015
volts shunt, and not from a 0-0.050 volts as I expected (and asked).

Because it current limits at a lower current than you expected? The
ratios your current limit is off do not agree with the above figures,
you could be on the wrong track here. Are you sure the controller
does not have a foldback current limit?
Will try to make a little divider cur input from current shunt and see
if it helps.

i

I looked at the new diagram ...

Marginal stibility from your controller, you need to turn the gain
down or better yet learn how to properly adjust all of your controller
parameters.

More issues with the unknown controller ...

Yes, and I started by verifying all control inputs and proceeded
systematically through the controller to the gate drives. Do you have
a controller schematic and adjustment procedure?
 
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Ignoramus6482

Jan 1, 1970
0
By the way Glen, I did as you suggested: I wired my transformer to
just use the top three output in a wye configuration, that uses only
half of my transformer, at a higher voltage than delta, but it is good
enough for testing.
Because it current limits at a lower current than you expected?

Yes, and not only it current limits, it also fails with overcurrent
LED coming up, if I get current above 5A (approximately).
The
ratios your current limit is off do not agree with the above
figures, you could be on the wrong track here. Are you sure the
controller does not have a foldback current limit?

I am not sure. I called their engineer this morning (did not want to
do it yesterday before gathering more data).

He suggested to try running the welder without any current regulation
(RSH+ and RSH- connections jumpered). I will do it today running
through a low ohms resistor (0.4 ohm 200 watt).
I looked at the new diagram ...


Marginal stibility from your controller, you need to turn the gain
down or better yet learn how to properly adjust all of your controller
parameters.

Yes, there are some trimpots that possibly could be adjusted. It is
discussed in the page for the regulator board.

I added PDF manuals that I have, to my page with pictures. You can
check

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Welding/11-New-Rectifier/Regulator.pdf

(three other documents are also available).
More issues with the unknown controller ...


Yes, and I started by verifying all control inputs and proceeded
systematically through the controller to the gate drives. Do you have
a controller schematic and adjustment procedure?

Yes, it is in Regulator.pdf. I think that I will try what theiur
engineer suggested, that is, to get higher current with current
control disabled (using the big resistor). If that gives me higher
current, for instance 25 amps, I will know that I have an issue with
current control.

From the document:

``fourth from the left is the current feedback control. this sets the
maximum current output. CW decreases current. ''

Thanks Glen. I am optimistic, this controller is likely good, but
perhaps needs some adjustments.

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Ignoramus6482

Jan 1, 1970
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Another line of thought is that the controller assumes that the low
side (negative) is grounded, this is related to the voltage sensor
input. Voltage sensor is not differential, according to their
engineer.

So, I think that I can also try to firmly ground the low side and see
if it would make any difference.

If it does help, then I can probably think about redoing the voltage
sensor input. I'll see tonight.

igor
 
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Ignoramus1014

Jan 1, 1970
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Another line of thought is that the controller assumes that the low
side (negative) is grounded, this is related to the voltage sensor
input. Voltage sensor is not differential, according to their
engineer.

So, I think that I can also try to firmly ground the low side and see
if it would make any difference.

Did not make any difference. Even more strangely, reversing the + and
- side of the current shunt output, still did not make a difference,
very puzzling.

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Ignoramus1014

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, another guess... I found two pins on the firing system that are
marked OVSET and OCSET that are not mentioned in the manual that I
have (someone from that company emailed it to me).

The manual does not quite match the system, there are two more
internal trimpots not mentioned, and I think that the manual also does
not mention this OCSET pin. It is blank in the manual.

Some mentions of OCSET pins in other systems like this

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/ir3093m.pdf

seem to be quite related and explanatory of my problem, which is that
OC trips at lowest currents. Maybe I need to supply some voltage to
OCSET. I will call their expert on Monday to discuss this, I think.

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Glen Walpert

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, another guess... I found two pins on the firing system that are
marked OVSET and OCSET that are not mentioned in the manual that I
have (someone from that company emailed it to me).

The manual does not quite match the system, there are two more
internal trimpots not mentioned, and I think that the manual also does
not mention this OCSET pin. It is blank in the manual.

Some mentions of OCSET pins in other systems like this

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/ir3093m.pdf

seem to be quite related and explanatory of my problem, which is that
OC trips at lowest currents. Maybe I need to supply some voltage to
OCSET. I will call their expert on Monday to discuss this, I think.

i

Sounds like you are on thr right track, the correct manual should be a
big help :).
 
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