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SMPS layout hints besides National AN-1149?

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello All,

Does anyone know a really good app note or other document that explains
layout guidelines for boost converters and the like to a PCB layouter?
AN-1149 is pretty good but maybe there is something with less text and
more layout suggestions.

The reason I ask is that some layouters know SMPS to a degree but have
never built one themselves. So I am looking for easy-to-read guidelines
that would be useful for them and save us designers from having to
explain everything again when working with a new layouter. Some stuff
will still have to be discussed and explained, but at least this might
give them a start.

Regards, Joerg
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
| Hello All,
|
| Does anyone know a really good app note or other document that
explains
| layout guidelines for boost converters and the like to a PCB layouter?
| AN-1149 is pretty good but maybe there is something with less text and
| more layout suggestions.
|
| The reason I ask is that some layouters know SMPS to a degree but have
| never built one themselves. So I am looking for easy-to-read
guidelines
| that would be useful for them and save us designers from having to
| explain everything again when working with a new layouter. Some stuff
| will still have to be discussed and explained, but at least this might
| give them a start.
|
| Regards, Joerg
|
|

Design rules;

1) Just enough space to get the job done.
2) Minimum 50 thou tracks through hole 20 thou tracks surface mount.
3) Double sided, no vias. Stick to the bottom layer.
4) These tracks are high current.
5) Placement... placement placement.
6) Have a bash and ask me later.

Members of the Ronny James might be offended by the tone of your
question.

DNA


Hint.... Ronny James Dio
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Genome,
Members of the Ronny James might be offended by the tone of your
question.
Huh? Isn't that a rock band? The only lyrics in modern music that I
remember pointing to the analog world were from the group "Rush".

Regards, Joerg
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
| Hi Genome,
|
| >Members of the Ronny James might be offended by the tone of your
| >question.
| >
| >
| Huh? Isn't that a rock band? The only lyrics in modern music that I
| remember pointing to the analog world were from the group "Rush".
|
| Regards, Joerg
|
|

Boink, Ronny James Dio..... Dio..... D.O. Drawing Office

DNA
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello All,

Does anyone know a really good app note or other document that explains
layout guidelines for boost converters and the like to a PCB layouter?
AN-1149 is pretty good but maybe there is something with less text and
more layout suggestions.

Several of the Linear tech chips have suggested layouts for them and other
such hints in the applications notes sections. If you follow their
suggestions the design generally works.

Maxim also has some notes IIRC. They do miss one very important issue
with the Maxim controller chips. Never ever ever let the ringing and
spikes on the MOSFETs gate drive a current back into the gate drive
output. Doing so really messes them up.
 
T

Tam/WB2TT

Jan 1, 1970
0
TI has a lot of ap notes, including some of the old Unitrode ones. They seem
to be more in depth than the National.

Tam
 
B

Ben Bradley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello All,

Does anyone know a really good app note or other document that explains
layout guidelines for boost converters and the like to a PCB layouter?
AN-1149 is pretty good but maybe there is something with less text and
more layout suggestions.

I'd look to hire a PCB layout person who can read and understand
the text as well as the layout diagrams. :)
The reason I ask is that some layouters know SMPS to a degree but have
never built one themselves. So I am looking for easy-to-read guidelines
that would be useful for them and save us designers from having to
explain everything again when working with a new layouter. Some stuff
will still have to be discussed and explained, but at least this might
give them a start.

Have you looked at all the manufacturers' data sheets and app
notes? Someone just mentioned TI, and I read a lot of Linear
Technonogy literature many years back - I recall Jim Williams'
memorable title "Switching Regulators for Poets." These are all online
at the manufacturers' websites.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks, folks. Got some good hints here. Yes, I did check with the major mfgs and had a hard time finding layout specific stuff. I had not found Jim Williams' article though and that is a really good one. Including that last page :)

I'll have to check the Padua site for English papers. I visited university sites there before and much of the text was in Italian. Why do I always get hungry when I try to read something in Italian? Maybe because they have such a nice word for power supply, "alimentazione".


Regards, Joerg
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Ken,
... Never ever ever let the ringing and spikes on the MOSFETs gate drive a current back into the gate drive output. Doing so really messes them up.
That's exactly what I learned the hard way during my first switcher
design without a controller. The gate voltage collapsed briefly upon
turn-on. They didn't teach us this stuff in school. But the good thing
is that even very small chips such as the LM3478 now feature very
staunch driver stages.

Regards, Joerg
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Ken,
[... About Maxim .. ]
... Never ever ever let the ringing and spikes on the MOSFETs gate drive a current back into the gate drive output. Doing so really messes them up.
That's exactly what I learned the hard way during my first switcher
design without a controller. The gate voltage collapsed briefly upon
turn-on. They didn't teach us this stuff in school. But the good thing
is that even very small chips such as the LM3478 now feature very
staunch driver stages.

The LT1246 /1247 seems to have a very robust gate driver too. Even with
no gate damping resistor, a relativistic drain swing of about 600V on the
MOSFET didn't even make it blink. 600V in about 50nS is a lot of volts
per uS.

I did find that you need to bypass the bypass on the bypass if you really
want the LT1246 to perform. On the gate upswing, it draws over 1A off the
VCC adn almost nothing in between.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ken Smith wrote...
[... About Maxim .. ]
... Never ever ever let the ringing and spikes on the MOSFETs gate
drive a current back into the gate drive output. Doing so really
messes them up.

That's exactly what I learned the hard way during my first switcher
design without a controller. The gate voltage collapsed briefly upon
turn-on. They didn't teach us this stuff in school. But the good thing
is that even very small chips such as the LM3478 now feature very
staunch driver stages.

The LT1246 /1247 seems to have a very robust gate driver too. Even with
no gate damping resistor, a relativistic drain swing of about 600V on the
MOSFET didn't even make it blink. 600V in about 50nS is a lot of volts
per uS.

That may be to some extent a property of the driven MOSFET. Some FETs
driven under certain conditions show strongly reversed gate currents
for a few ns, while others don't or the effect is weak. Wiring issues,
like excessive inductance in the source lead, may play a role as well.
I did find that you need to bypass the bypass on the bypass if you really
want the LT1246 to perform. On the gate upswing, it draws over 1A off the
VCC and almost nothing in between.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Ken,
I did find that you need to bypass the bypass on the bypass if you really
want the LT1246 to perform. On the gate upswing, it draws over 1A off the
VCC adn almost nothing in between.
That is one of the less understood phenomena in electronics. Again
something that isn't usually taught at the university, at least not in
my days. Most people don't realize that nearly all that 1A has to come
out of a tiny capacitor or two. The output cap is the other issue. You
and I and most of the NG participants know that ripple current specs are
something to be reckoned with but many engineers out there don't.

With respect to drivers in these chips many of them provide a push-pull
stage with 10-20 ohms. When I read that this was what convinced me to
swallow the pride and use a chip for the first time. Well, that and the
90 cent price tag of the 3478.

Regards, Joerg
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,
Joerg said:
Hi Ken,

That is one of the less understood phenomena in electronics. Again
something that isn't usually taught at the university, at least not in
my days. Most people don't realize that nearly all that 1A has to come
out of a tiny capacitor or two. The output cap is the other issue. You
and I and most of the NG participants know that ripple current specs are
something to be reckoned with but many engineers out there don't.

I soon learned that when designing AC drives - it turns out that capacitor
ripple current is really the key to long-term reliability (and cost). Drive
lifetime is governed almost entirely by capacitor lifetime (provided of
course both the design and the production system work well), which is a
function of internal cap temperature - and it doesnt matter from whence the
temeprature arose - ambient, hot devices nearby or Resr*I^2 (or Vcap*Ileak)
loss inside the cap. I have carefully peeled open the tops of many an
electrolytic, and stuck thermocouples down inside them to measure core
temperature directly.

When you buy $1,000,000 worth of caps from Hitachi they are very nice, and
will make caps with embedded thermocouples :) They also give you LOTS of
data that joe public never sees - like for example the distribution, mean
and std deviation of measured capacitor lifetime etc. IIRC Hitachi
use -3s.d. as their "rated" lifetime - that way they have a high probability
of every device meeting the specs....

back then (late 80's/early 90's) few manufacturers gave you detailed info on
lifetime. United (Nippon) Chemicon are GREAT - everyone should read this:

http://www.chemi-con.com/u7002/life.php

Its a great description of exactly how to do it. I have also learned (the
hard way) to stick with reputable manufacturers - cheaper is generally much
worse, regardless of what the datasheet says. A common sneaky trick is to
set the end of life spec at -15% capacitance and 300% leakage current, where
most manufacturers use -10% and +200% respectively. This makes "end of life"
quite a bit bigger than it really is. I havent looked for a few years, but
previously every time I did all of the "good" manufacturers were actually
quite similar, and every "new" manufacturers (usually korean) part that my
suppliers found that looked quite a bit better (say +30% lifetime) turned
out to be some such specmanship, and invariably they were quite a lot worse
than my preferred sources.

some manufacturers now make large electrolytic cans with a big hole in the
centre - 20mm or so - to greatly improve the cooling. Removing the inner
portion of a short, fat cylinder makes a small reduction in capacitance, but
drastically improves the thermal behaviour, so such a cap can take a higher
ripple current for the same lifetime.

We used to poke the large cans thru the heatsink and expose them to external
air. I hit upon the interesting yet obvious idea of not putting them in the
middle of the heatsink ie not blowing nice hot air over them. This allowed
us to drop the number of caps per sub-assembly from 8 to 6. In a big drive
we would thus save around 16 caps, and they were about $30 each.

With respect to drivers in these chips many of them provide a push-pull
stage with 10-20 ohms. When I read that this was what convinced me to
swallow the pride and use a chip for the first time. Well, that and the
90 cent price tag of the 3478.

Regards, Joerg

I reckon another area many engineers overlook is resistor transient power
dissipation. Most just look at the average power dissipation. I have seen
many 0603 4R7 gate drive resistors, running from 12V supplies. By the time
Cg' is such that Rg*Cg' > gate driver Tr (Tf), Rg sees about (12^2)/4.7 =
30W peak! And if you toast Rg its value invariably rises, leading to
destruction of the fet which usually shorts D-G and totally destroys Rg....

Regards,
Terry
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Terry,

Capacitor lifetime wasn't such an issue in the olden days. Maybe it's like with cars where the older ones usually were better. When I restored our 1961 Hammond organ I checked all the large caps and all were just fine. And this after more than 40 years sitting right next to glowing tubes. Same with some old tube radios, most of which are older than 50 years. All the caps are fine. You find some real gems in there, such as electrolytics from motorcycle manufacturers like Ducati.

In contrast to that I had to change electrolytics on a lot of "modern" PC gear and even famous and freaking expensive lab equipment. I guess a huge price tag on an analyzer doesn't guarantee that the caps will be of the same quality as those in grandpa's tube radio.

Regards, Joerg
 
T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hi Terry,

Capacitor lifetime wasn't such an issue in the olden days. Maybe it's
like with cars where the older ones usually were better. When I restored
our 1961 Hammond organ I checked all the large caps and all were just
fine. And this after more than 40 years sitting right next to glowing
tubes. Same with some old tube radios, most of which are older than 50
years. All the caps are fine. You find some real gems in there, such as
electrolytics from motorcycle manufacturers like Ducati.

In contrast to that I had to change electrolytics on a lot of "modern"
PC gear and even famous and freaking expensive lab equipment. I guess a
huge price tag on an analyzer doesn't guarantee that the caps will be of
the same quality as those in grandpa's tube radio.

Regards, Joerg

Hey, wait a minute! Every antique radio restoration page I read is all
about dried-out electrolytics and crapped-out paper/oil capacitors. My
National NC-46 certainly needs a thorough re-capping -- I've already
changed the obviously bubbled ones and the thing is now at least
working, it seems that every cap I replace makes it better (I'm doing it
one by one for fear of ripping it up and forgetting where they belong :).

State of the art in radio restoration is to rip the guts out of the old
caps and put modern caps in, to get new performance and retain the old look.
 
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