Protel or ORcad?

[Hammer]

What software is better, Protel or ORcad?
Thanks.

 

[Simon Peacock]

depends who's paying... also depends on the support group IMO.. Protels is
very active and DXP has some nice features added in SP3.

Simon

 

[Jack// ani]

This question has been asked thousand times! So don't expect some
good out of it...

I believe it depends upon your application. OrCAD is good at simulation
whereas Protel is for PCB design.

 

[Brad Velander]

Well since your question is between the two.

First of all there is no ideal package.
Secondly what are your needs?

I know that there are bugs and issues in the current DXP2004.
However it seems that Altium is genuinely trying to address those
issues in a timely and professional manner right now. It hasn't
always been that way, can't guarantee it is not a fleeting cycle.

I hear there are also bugs and issues with OrCAD. Hearsay
only as I have never used it, except for years of using OrCAD as
a schematic front-end back in the DOS days.

From what I have heard and experienced, DXP2004 is destined
to become a much more powerful system than OrCAD. With many
complex capabilities and DRC rules capabilities. The new system
is a bit non-standard in it's user interface and operation,
however for those that take the time to learn it properly the
payoffs will come in what you are capable of doing with the
package.

Autorouting? The Situs (DXP2004) router still seems to be out
to lunch and I wouldn't ever expect anything much out of it if
you truly care about the integrity of your routing. What can you
expect for that price range included in the whole package. OrCAD,
not sure what OrCAD has for autorouting these days. If you truly
need autorouting then spring for a proper autorouter like the
latest Cooper Chyan/Cadence offering but be prepared to spend as
much time learning to make it run (properly & as expected) as you
would with the CAD package.

Simulation? I don't use it so I can't say other than I know
some have used the simulation with reasonable results in P99SE &
DXP. Can't say how hard it was for them to get there.

So if you are a tinkerer, parttime designer, I don't think
either of these are the answer for you unless you just have too
much money to spend on your hobby. But if you are a fulltime
designer or in a small company looking for your long term
solution I would suggest DXP2004 is my future roadmap.

 

[Don Prescott]

I know that there are bugs and issues in the current DXP2004.

However it seems that Altium is genuinely trying to address those
issues in a timely and professional manner right now. It hasn't
always been that way, can't guarantee it is not a fleeting cycle.

For as long as I have known Protel they have a poor reputation for
bugs and taking an eternity fixing them. Now we hear, yet again, that
Altium are trying hard to get it right. Why is this constantly the
case with Protel...? The product ain't bargain basement. It's what
$8K.....!

From what I have heard and experienced, DXP2004 is destined
to become a much more powerful system than OrCAD.

Well that isn't hard to figure. IMO OrCAD is a dying product. It's
not been healthy since Cadence bought the company. But since OrCAD
canned the US dev operation and shipped dev to India it's gone into
suspended animation. The Layout product - the old Masstech suite that
OrCAD bought way back when is prehistoric by modern standards.
Cadence don't even sell this stuff in the US - they have a VAR, EMA
doing it.....

Autorouting? The Situs (DXP2004) router still seems to be out
to lunch and I wouldn't ever expect anything much out of it if
you truly care about the integrity of your routing.

Again, the Protel router has been poor for a long time now. How come
they can't get it right?

.....But if you are a fulltime designer or in a small company looking for
your long term solution I would suggest DXP2004 is my future roadmap.

I would not recommend either of these products. Altium have recorded
consistent losses over the last few years and it's not difficult to
see part of the reason why. OrCAD is on the slippery slope. No doubt
about it. The Schematics and Simulation are still OK, but the layout
is awful and there's little or no dev on any of it.

If you want to know what I use and recommend it's Pulsonix. A much
better product and lower priced than either of these.

Prescott

 

[Rob Gaddi]

I hear there are also bugs and issues with OrCAD. Hearsay
only as I have never used it, except for years of using OrCAD as
a schematic front-end back in the DOS days.

OrCAD has some bugs, and the Titanic took on some water. Layout has
always crashed at least once per half hour, Capture has taken to
crashing once per half hour, and 90% of the way through my last project,
Capture decided to crash catastrophically and take out my schematic with
it, leaving me to finish the project from a layout only and then
manually recreate the connection diagram from the netlist.

Autorouting? The Situs (DXP2004) router still seems to be out
to lunch and I wouldn't ever expect anything much out of it if
you truly care about the integrity of your routing. What can you
expect for that price range included in the whole package. OrCAD,
not sure what OrCAD has for autorouting these days.

The same aforementioned project was finishable from Layout only because
it was really just a glorified adapter. Through-hole connectors on one
side, through-hole connectors on the other, traces between. I sat there
massaging the connections in Capture until finally, when all was said
and done, the rat's nest showed no crossovers. Every pin on side A
could be routed directly to a pin on side B and never have to cross a
neighbor to get there. And so I let SmartRoute have a go at it. At
which point it very generously via'd every line, some up to three times,
and tied my entire board into a knot. I eventually had to route the
thing manually, which did in fact prove that it could be easily done
with no crossing.

So if you are a tinkerer, parttime designer, I don't think
either of these are the answer for you unless you just have too
much money to spend on your hobby. But if you are a fulltime
designer or in a small company looking for your long term
solution I would suggest DXP2004 is my future roadmap.

While I can't speak to Protel at all, I would personally never recommend
OrCAD to anyone.

 

[qrk]

For as long as I have known Protel they have a poor reputation for
bugs and taking an eternity fixing them. Now we hear, yet again, that
Altium are trying hard to get it right. Why is this constantly the
case with Protel...? The product ain't bargain basement. It's what
$8K.....!


Well that isn't hard to figure. IMO OrCAD is a dying product. It's
not been healthy since Cadence bought the company. But since OrCAD
canned the US dev operation and shipped dev to India it's gone into
suspended animation. The Layout product - the old Masstech suite that
OrCAD bought way back when is prehistoric by modern standards.
Cadence don't even sell this stuff in the US - they have a VAR, EMA
doing it.....


Again, the Protel router has been poor for a long time now. How come
they can't get it right?


I would not recommend either of these products. Altium have recorded
consistent losses over the last few years and it's not difficult to
see part of the reason why. OrCAD is on the slippery slope. No doubt
about it. The Schematics and Simulation are still OK, but the layout
is awful and there's little or no dev on any of it.

If you want to know what I use and recommend it's Pulsonix. A much
better product and lower priced than either of these.

Prescott

Cadence is trying to kill off Layout. The development team in India
has taken over a year to get version 10 working. Unfortunately, they
have no idea what they are programming! Presently, version 10 is
pretty stable and useable. They slowed it down and broke numerous
things. They have an irritating bug if you need to apply a scaling
factor to a printer job. If you happen to buy Layout, insist on them
giving you the latest version 9 release so you have a fully functional
program when version 10 fails to work properly.

Cadence is pushing new customers to buy Allegro instead of Layout.
Allegro seems to be a much better program than Layout. I have sat thru
a demo and it looks pretty good. I would venture to guess that
learning Allegro will take some time. Orcad Capture is bundled with
Allegro and looks like the two programs shared data pretty good. If
you despise Capture, Allegro will import Telesis net lists.

Both Layout and Allegro use the Specctra autorouter which can do good
work if you sit down and plan out every net. Layout still has their
old Massteck autorouter and SmartRoute. I haven't used their
autorouters in years since the autorouters usually make a big mess on
complicated boards.

In short, avoid Layout like the plague. If you want to jump into the
Cadence camp, get Allegro. Or look at some of the other fine packages
out there.

BTW, PSpice is a pretty good simulator. Of course, you could save a
bunch of money and use LTspice which is a quality simulator and
compatible with PSpice syntax. LTspice's schematic entry is a bit
clunky and doesn't have a couple of the nice graphing features that
PSpice has.

Mark

 

[Brad Velander]

Don,
And Pulsonix is what, $6995 USD (straight from their web
pages) for the equal package? Wow, big difference when you are
investing more in the user development than on the software. So
Pulsonix isn't bargain basement either and Don should be more
honest about it instead of trying to make it seem Pulsonix is
incredibly cheaper at an equal product level.

 

[Leon Heller]

Don,
And Pulsonix is what, $6995 USD (straight from their web
pages) for the equal package? Wow, big difference when you are
investing more in the user development than on the software. So
Pulsonix isn't bargain basement either and Don should be more
honest about it instead of trying to make it seem Pulsonix is
incredibly cheaper at an equal product level.

It's not a cheap product, but bugs that do show up are fixed *very* quickly.
It is much easier to use than the competition and Pulsonix is very
repsonsive to suggestions from users. Overall cost of ownership (when
designers' time is taken into account) will be much less than for Protel and
OrCAD.

Leon

 

[Don Prescott]

Don,
And Pulsonix is what, $6995 USD (straight from their web
pages) for the equal package? Wow, big difference when you are
investing more in the user development than on the software. So
Pulsonix isn't bargain basement either and Don should be more
honest about it instead of trying to make it seem Pulsonix is
incredibly cheaper at an equal product level.
--

The model I use is 2000 Pin with Autoroute. On the Pulsonix website
it's currently $4495. I've found the product to be very stable with an
excellent router. Brad, my simple question is this: how can these
guys at Pulsonix get it right consistently and Altium can't? All we
ever hear about Protel is "yep, still buggy, but they're trying to get
it right..."

Prescott

 

[Leon Heller]

The model I use is 2000 Pin with Autoroute. On the Pulsonix website
it's currently $4495. I've found the product to be very stable with an
excellent router. Brad, my simple question is this: how can these
guys at Pulsonix get it right consistently and Altium can't? All we
ever hear about Protel is "yep, still buggy, but they're trying to get
it right..."

They basically got the software structured properly using C++ right from the
start, making enhancements quite easy, without introducing too many new
bugs. Having excellent software engineers is another factor, as well as
using tools like Trolltech's QT for the GUI. They also have the benefit of
me being one of their beta testers.

Leon

 

[Brad Velander]

As I said, compare equal product levels. Do you want to
compare 100 pin limit packages as well?

If Pulsonix get it right consistently, where is their user
base? I have never met one person that uses it. Never heard of
any professionals even considering it, just hobbyists and one man
shops through the newsgroups. Actually , just you and a handful
of others, some suspect of actually being Pulsonix employees.

As for the router, never seen one yet that works
satisfactorily for less than $10K - $20K USD ( I remember when
that was $30K or greater not all too long ago). At that you also
have to take a course (about $5K US) just to really learn how to
operate it. But it's the same sad story with all seran wrapped
routers, as I said you just can't expect much out of any of them.

I never said that Altium always gets it right, I gave them an
honest assessment that right now they seem to be working
diligently to cleanup DXP. It hasn't always been the case as I
suggested.

 

[Leon Heller]

As I said, compare equal product levels. Do you want to
compare 100 pin limit packages as well?

If Pulsonix get it right consistently, where is their user
base? I have never met one person that uses it. Never heard of
any professionals even considering it, just hobbyists and one man
shops through the newsgroups. Actually , just you and a handful
of others, some suspect of actually being Pulsonix employees.

It's only been going for a couple of years, but they already have a
substantial user base. I run the Yahoo Pulsonix users group - it has very
little activity because the software just gets the job done, with very few
problems:

http://www.pulsonix.com

All the senior Pulsonix people are ex-Zuken, with decades of PCB software
experience between them.

As for the router, never seen one yet that works
satisfactorily for less than $10K - $20K USD ( I remember when
that was $30K or greater not all too long ago). At that you also
have to take a course (about $5K US) just to really learn how to
operate it. But it's the same sad story with all seran wrapped
routers, as I said you just can't expect much out of any of them.

I never said that Altium always gets it right, I gave them an
honest assessment that right now they seem to be working
diligently to cleanup DXP. It hasn't always been the case as I
suggested.

Pulsonix uses the Electra router, it's also available for Protel. It's very
good, as routers go, and quite easy to use. I think it was written by the
same chap who developed Specctra, now sold by Cadence.

Leon

 

[Don Prescott]

As I said, compare equal product levels. Do you want to

compare 100 pin limit packages as well?

Even if you take the unlimited pins model it's still lower priced than
Protel.

If Pulsonix get it right consistently, where is their user
base? I have never met one person that uses it. Never heard of
any professionals even considering it, just hobbyists and one man
shops through the newsgroups. Actually , just you and a handful
of others, some suspect of actually being Pulsonix employees.

Pulsonix is quite a new product. It was only released a few years
ago, so it's not surprising you haven't encountered many users.
Protel started what, 25 years ago....? Pulsonix have quite a large
user-base in the US so I believe. I've spoke to several other users.
Nothing like the user-base of Protel I agree. I may be wrong but I
haven't heard of any hobbyists shelling $7K. They are usually use the
free versions or open source stuff.

As for the router, never seen one yet that works
satisfactorily for less than $10K - $20K USD ( I remember when
that was $30K or greater not all too long ago). At that you also
have to take a course (about $5K US) just to really learn how to
operate it. But it's the same sad story with all seran wrapped
routers, as I said you just can't expect much out of any of them.

You're talking past-tense here Brad. This sounds like SPECCTRA speak.
The Pulsonix router might not be quite on par with SPECCTRA but it's
pretty close.

I never said that Altium always gets it right, I gave them an
honest assessment that right now they seem to be working
diligently to cleanup DXP. It hasn't always been the case as I
suggested.
--

There's no justifiable excuse why a multi million dollar operation
can't release reliable software, and a usable router. Not guaranteed
bug-free of course 'cos nobody can do that. As can be seen by other
messages, the basic rule of thumb: "don't touch any Protel release
until service pack 5".......! How can you defend that..?

Prescott

 

[Brad Velander]

Don,
Do you always make mindless arguments and arguments on points
that coincide with peoples comments?

25 years? Yeah right, were you in diapers then Don? If you
weren't then you would know that there was no CAD 25 years ago
unless you had mainframes or PDPs handy. Protel started approx.
1990 after the split between Nick M. and the Accel people. So
approx. 15 years, not 25 years.

Yes the unlimited version is lower priced than Protel, I told you
that as well. So you can save $1000 on a $8K package while you
spend $10K or more in training and support and setup costs to
adapt and start using the package reasonably well.

You critique me for mentioning Spectra as past-tense but
almost every comment you make about Protel is past tense as well.
Find anyone making comments about DXP and 5 service packs? DXP
had 2 SPs, DXP2004 is currently on SP2 with SP3 imminent. There
has been a wide acceptance of DXP from the start, very few users
went back to P99SE and that was mostly an initial GUI/familiarity
protest because they altered so many basic operations in the
program.

Find the comments that are not just past-tense, then maybe we
can talk. That is if the complaint is not just mindless cattle
fodder because the user figured it should do things or should do
them the same way as the package that they were used to using.

Then again, if you want to discuss the subject of the thread
feel free. Otherwise I don't know where Pulsonix was invited into
the conversation before you rudely pushed your way in like a used
car salesman with off topic comparisons and exaggerations of
price savings for lesser products that very well may not have met
the original request's needs.

 

[Don Prescott]

Don,
Do you always make mindless arguments and arguments on points
that coincide with peoples comments?

25 years? Yeah right, were you in diapers then Don? If you
weren't then you would know that there was no CAD 25 years ago
unless you had mainframes or PDPs handy. Protel started approx.
1990 after the split between Nick M. and the Accel people. So
approx. 15 years, not 25 years.

Yes the unlimited version is lower priced than Protel, I told you
that as well. So you can save $1000 on a $8K package while you
spend $10K or more in training and support and setup costs to
adapt and start using the package reasonably well.

You critique me for mentioning Spectra as past-tense but
almost every comment you make about Protel is past tense as well.
Find anyone making comments about DXP and 5 service packs? DXP
had 2 SPs, DXP2004 is currently on SP2 with SP3 imminent. There
has been a wide acceptance of DXP from the start, very few users
went back to P99SE and that was mostly an initial GUI/familiarity
protest because they altered so many basic operations in the
program.

Find the comments that are not just past-tense, then maybe we
can talk. That is if the complaint is not just mindless cattle
fodder because the user figured it should do things or should do
them the same way as the package that they were used to using.

Then again, if you want to discuss the subject of the thread
feel free. Otherwise I don't know where Pulsonix was invited into
the conversation before you rudely pushed your way in like a used
car salesman with off topic comparisons and exaggerations of
price savings for lesser products that very well may not have met
the original request's needs.

"mindless cattle fodder"...."pushed your way in like a used car
salesman"
Tsk, Tsk, Brad! Do I detect you're getting a triffle pissed...

Let's get something straight - Pulsonix is NOT a lesser product than
Protel. It came in merely 'cos I said I wouldn't recommend either
OrCAD or Protel and I mentioned what I use and recommend.

But let's face it - you're a fully paid-up Protel groupie. I can see
that. Hearing something adverse about your pet product obviously
offends your sensibilites. Calm down!

Prescott

 

[Brad Velander]

Don quit pissing up the rope, and look at where it is ending up.

And your opinion is based upon what, hearsay and rumor?
That's all you have offered in argument against either package.

Now listen closely Don because you are obviously hard of hearing
and failed to register it any of the other numerous times I have
state the same things.

I don't use DXP, I don't say Protel is the greatest, I admit
that Protel has been less than attentive in the past to bugs and
improvements. I have only stated that at the moment Protel seems
to be mending their ways an that if those few existing issues are
suitably addressed there will be no product in the price point
that can touch it for power. So you can go **** yourself with
your baseless accusations. They only exist in your own petty
little mind.

Got any references or experience to share touting DXP2004 not
being usable until 5 SPs? If you don't then just **** off you
little troll.

 

[Don Prescott]

Oh Brad how could you.... the 'f' word! You have been a very bad boy!
Have you been missing your anger management classes.....?

From Simon peacock on about Protel DXP: "I am also on the DXP beta
list.. There is about a service pack a month there."….."And yes DXP is
buggy.." "I don't see my current company upgrading to DXP until there
are a few more service packs."

So Brad old pal, how many service packs would you want before you
would start using DXP...? Maybe 4 is about the right number....
Seemingly "5" sends to into a fit.... Now calm down Brad, it's only a
number.... breath deeply.....

I've never been called a little troll before...... What is a troll..?

Prescott

 

[R.Lewis]

"mindless cattle fodder"...."pushed your way in like a used car
salesman"
Tsk, Tsk, Brad! Do I detect you're getting a triffle pissed...

Let's get something straight - Pulsonix is NOT a lesser product than
Protel. It came in merely 'cos I said I wouldn't recommend either
OrCAD or Protel and I mentioned what I use and recommend.

But let's face it - you're a fully paid-up Protel groupie. I can see
that. Hearing something adverse about your pet product obviously
offends your sensibilites. Calm down!

Steady on children.

I can only agree that if you had paid n-mega bucks for Protel you would have
to be a 'protel groupie' to do so.
It circulates for free just about everywhere in PRC so it is cheaper to fly
there and get a copy.

If you want to see reall sad groupies - what about the poor souls that have
paid money for Cadstar?
Now that software really is b*ll*cks.

 

[Simon Peacock]

guys.. guys.. please .. lets keep it seemly in here..

There's no need to start a war over oil or CAD.. every one has their
preference ... and we are all groupies... If engineers weren't "strange" and
quirky.. then we couldn't be engineers.. some of the greatest minds in
History have been so weird.. they put Hollywood to shame...

And there's something called Brand Loyalty.. companies do it all the time..
that's why Apple have university programs.. and you can buy student software
for one tenth the cost for commercial. Its not because students are poor...
as Universities aren't.

I've been using protel for decades.. since 2.8.. and at the time it was one
of the best for the dollar... things might be different now when there are
new start-ups around.. I still believe that for all the faults Protel has
been around for a long time.. and likely to be around for a long time to
come. so bugs will eventually be fixed and the usual theory of 1-2 years
delay or 3 service packs works. Pulsonix MIGHT be a better package right
now... but what is the company history? what are their upgrade plans ?
I looked at Pulsonixs and it reminded me of the older tools I've left behind
as the graphical interface is still a little clunky but in saying that
Protel has grown slower and slower due to over doing the interface... for
better or for worse. Also the price has only one year maintaince for
Pulsonix.. but Protel is supported until the next release... and some times
a little past.

And maybe.. just Maybe .. Pulsonix is the Protel of the 22nd centaury... and
Protel is going the way of Mentor Graphics. Orcad.. Pcad or Tango

Also, because of the financial investment I have in Protel.. I would always
prefer a competitive upgrade price rather than an outright purchase.

Simon