Maker Pro
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Powering the furnace

S

Sam O. Singletary

Jan 1, 1970
0
We have a gas furnace. If the power goes out, it seems a shame to freeze
when the gas is in the pipe. Would a UPC, one of those devices that is
used to keep a computer going when the power goes out - would one of those
be useful to power the furnace for a few hours until the power was
restored?

Would it be possible and simpler to have a battery plus inverter?
 
J

Jim Rusling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam O. Singletary said:
We have a gas furnace. If the power goes out, it seems a shame to freeze
when the gas is in the pipe. Would a UPC, one of those devices that is
used to keep a computer going when the power goes out - would one of those
be useful to power the furnace for a few hours until the power was
restored?

Would it be possible and simpler to have a battery plus inverter?

A normal UPS probably would not work. You will need to know what the
starting and running amps on your furnace is. A kill-a-watt will tell
you this. It really is not very practicable to run you furnace off a
battery and inverter. You would have to have a large bank of
batteries to last any time at all. A generator works just fine. You
don't have to have a large one to handle a gas furnace.
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep, Jim has it right.

Even if you had a UPS big enough to run that fan, you would be amazed at
the huge battery bank you would need to run your furnace for any length of time.
A small generator is the cheapest and simplest solution. The most elegant
solution would be a generator modified (or built) to run from that natural gas
that is already in your pipes. Gasoline can be really hard to come by after a
general power failure.

Vaughn
 
S

Sam O. Singletary

Jan 1, 1970
0
What fan ?

Graham

A honking big blower motor that blows the hot air into the ductwork
throughout the house.

Thanks for the replies.
 
J

Jim Rusling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam O. Singletary said:
A honking big blower motor that blows the hot air into the ductwork
throughout the house.

Thanks for the replies.

I can understand his question, some people have gas floor furnaces
that do not require power except maybe for the thermostat.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam O. Singletary said:
A honking big blower motor that blows the hot air into the ductwork
throughout the house.

I see. You don't often find that method of room heating in the UK. It's
almost invariably hot water radiators.

Graham
 
S

Sam O. Singletary

Jan 1, 1970
0
I see. You don't often find that method of room heating in the UK. It's
almost invariably hot water radiators.

I think I'd prefer that. At least you have a big hunk of iron giving off
heat for some time after the furnace turns off. The outlets of the ducts
quickly get cold.
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam O. Singletary said:
We have a gas furnace. If the power goes out, it seems a shame to freeze
when the gas is in the pipe.

But what if there is no gas in the pipe? What if the furnace goes bad
Saturday evening? Then what?

Going a bit further with this conversation. I live in South Florida, so
perhaps the prospect of being without heat in freezing weather seems scarier to
me than it really should. But wouldn't it be prudent to keep a portable stove
and about ten gallons of kerosene "just in case"? That way, you could have at
least one warm room no matter what else went wrong. The old brands of Aladdin,
Perfection, and KeroSun quickly come to mind.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam O. Singletary said:
I think I'd prefer that. At least you have a big hunk of iron giving off
heat for some time after the furnace turns off. The outlets of the ducts
quickly get cold.

The air ducts occupy a lot of space which would be an issue for British
homes, we don't have such large houses, it must blow dust around and of
course it's noisy.

That method has a reputation of being expensive to run over here too.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn said:
But what if there is no gas in the pipe? What if the furnace goes bad
Saturday evening? Then what?

Going a bit further with this conversation. I live in South Florida, so
perhaps the prospect of being without heat in freezing weather seems scarier to
me than it really should. But wouldn't it be prudent to keep a portable stove
and about ten gallons of kerosene "just in case"? That way, you could have at
least one warm room no matter what else went wrong. The old brands of Aladdin,
Perfection, and KeroSun quickly come to mind.

Or a heater running off bottled butane or propane or whatever.

Graham
 
M

Martin Riddle

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam O. Singletary said:
I think I'd prefer that. At least you have a big hunk of iron giving off
heat for some time after the furnace turns off. The outlets of the ducts
quickly get cold.

You still have the circulator pump which is probably 1/3hp or so. Thats ~300 watts.
I've run our Oil fired furnace off a 1500w inverter. Battery capacity is an issue.
A small Honda generator and a few Jerry cans of Juice is the perfect solution.

Cheers
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
z said:
Eeyore wrote


or those old crappy gas fires stuffed in the place where the coal fire
used to be. Man .. i was always amazed how 2 foot thick stone walls
could still have a breeze flowing through it -- you'd crank those gas
fires up and you'd stay warm if you were within 6 feet of it :)

Gas fires like that are VERY rare now.

Graham
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
How much power do fans for forced air heating require?

We have a boiler (propane-fired) which requires some electricity for the
gas valve, internal blower (clears out the old propane gas before igniting)
and the igniter. There are also several circulating pumps for the system,
requiring about 0.7A/120VAC each.

I've not measured the power consumption of the total system, and I forget
what my estimate was back during the design phase.
--ron
The fan on my OLD furnace was 1/3 HP on high.. Under 7500 watts when
running.

On my new furnace with a variable speed DC fan it draws something less
than 500 when running, and about 200 on low speed circulation.
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
BobG said:
Is there a rule of thumb for cost of generator power? Electricity is
about 15 cents per KWhr around here. My generac 3500W was using 3/4 of
a gal every 2 hrs last time the power was out for a couple days
(hurricane a couple years ago). Thats about $1,13 an hr at ($3 a gal)
for 3.5KW or 32 cents per KWhr. Anybody doing better than that?

It is unlikely that your generator was actually loaded to 3500 watts the
entire time, so your cost per KWh was probably actually higher that $.32. Also,
you were only considering the cost of fuel, but use of the generator itself is
not free.

That said, your point is well taken, grid power is probably the biggest
bargain we will ever see. Any other way of supplying power to our homes is
amazingly expensive.

Vaughn
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn said:
It is unlikely that your generator was actually loaded to 3500 watts the
entire time, so your cost per KWh was probably actually higher that $.32. Also,
you were only considering the cost of fuel, but use of the generator itself is
not free.

That said, your point is well taken, grid power is probably the biggest
bargain we will ever see. Any other way of supplying power to our homes is
amazingly expensive.

Natural gas is about 1/3 the price of electricity in the UK.

Graham
 
E

Ecnerwal

Jan 1, 1970
0
BobG said:
Is there a rule of thumb for cost of generator power? Electricity is
about 15 cents per KWhr around here. My generac 3500W was using 3/4 of
a gal every 2 hrs last time the power was out for a couple days
(hurricane a couple years ago). Thats about $1,13 an hr at ($3 a gal)
for 3.5KW or 32 cents per KWhr. Anybody doing better than that?

As has been mentioned, you were probably not actually loading to the
capacity of the genset, and therefore cost more per KWh than you got
above.

Diesels can do somewhat better, in part because the fuel use scales more
reasonably with load (half load is nearly half the fuel consumption of
full load - not the case with gasoline/NG/LPG) and good ones simply
don't use as much fuel per KWh regardless of load - but they vary
widely, which is to say that some are fuel hogs, too. Diesels should
always use less fuel volume per KWh, simply because a gallon of diesel
has more energy than a gallon of gas. However, at the moment in the
Northeast US, I think even no-tax (off-road) diesel is more expensive
than gasoline (always taxed), and the generators (particularly good
ones) are far more expensive. Not a very good deal if you only use it
every two years or so.

A good diesel set under 20 KW can do a KWh on .06-.08 gallon of diesel.
Bigger ones can do even better, but are not reasonable for a small
individual user (and not that efficient at small loads). Some of the
sets for which data are easily available show interesting patterns, such
as essentially the same fuel consumption (gallons per hour at full load)
for 6KW sets and 10KW sets, meaning the 10KW set is a lot cheaper to run
in that case.
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's quite a difference between the old and the new. Your 200-500 watts
is probably what my circulating pumps would draw, if they were all running
at the same time. But they don't have to run that often.

Thanks for the info.
--ron
We went from a 30+ year old standard furnace to a brand new medium
efficiency and didn't see ANY change in gas consumption, but the
electrical cost went to almost half.

There was a typo there. The 7500 was actually supposed to be 750.
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe...many furnaces now include electronics...and they are sensitive
to the quality of power they are fed.

Until you actually try the specific generator with the specific
furnace, you don't know.

My Temp Pro (same as Heil) runs fine on an old Onan.
 
R

RW Salnick

Jan 1, 1970
0
Solar Flare brought forth on stone tablets:
I think about 12volts dc (wonder where one would get that?) applied to
the furnace gas valave would do the trick. Let convection do the rest.
Most furnaces are set up to assist convection heating.

I mean, really? If you are freezing in a massive black out? Who needs
perfection. and who needs a big fan blowing it around the house.
Depending on the kevel of emergency at the time, 60-80,000 BTUs of
heat sitting there? I would find a way to hold that gas valve on. It
would need monitoring though. Don't walk away.


Done that. Yup, 12V will pull in the gas solenoid.

Here're the issues that result:

o Without the circulating fan, the furnace heat exchanger rapidly
overheats. Natural convection does not provide anywhere near the air
flow that the fan delivers. Luckily, the furnace has overtemp safety
switches that shut off the burner. Be careful that you don't bypass
these with your hookup to the gas solenoid.

o Although natural convection will indeed deliver hot air to the
house, you will find that without the circulation fan it pools against
the ceiling, and a very real thermocline will develop... 70 degree air
from the waist up, and 40 degree air at floor level. Still, that is way
better than freezing...


bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle
 
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