Please identify these pcb materials

[Eeyore]

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...e4655/07ad85e7ac4fb61a?hl=en#07ad85e7ac4fb61a

Read em and weep.

From the above link.......

" http://i10.tinypic.com/2zfsff8.jpg
http://i7.tinypic.com/4htbcbp.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/29bgglt.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/40ljq53.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/44rdbuv.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/2nbepw9.jpg

Proof QSC is using single sided phenolic paper PCBs.

Phildo "

The poster 'Phildo' a sound mixing engineer who mixes sound on cruise liners and posts in alt.audio.pro.live-sound is apparently under the
impression that one of the products above contains phenolic-paper pcbs.

Apparently my word that it's not isn't good enough for him.

Comments welcome.


Graham

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

From the above link.......

" http://i10.tinypic.com/2zfsff8.jpg
http://i7.tinypic.com/4htbcbp.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/29bgglt.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/40ljq53.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/44rdbuv.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/2nbepw9.jpg

Proof QSC is using single sided phenolic paper PCBs.

Phildo "

The poster 'Phildo' a sound mixing engineer who mixes sound on cruise
liners and posts in alt.audio.pro.live-sound is apparently under the
impression that one of the products above contains phenolic-paper
pcbs.

Apparently my word that it's not isn't good enough for him.

Comments welcome.

I've seen stuff like that, it seems to be made the same way, by a resin and
fibrous material rather than a woven cloth. It's still an epoxy resin
though, the stuff I saw was more like a ceramic for hardness than SRBP
could ever be. It even chipped like a ceramic at the edges. I don't know
what it is, exactly, but it seems to be a way to use the SRBP-type process
with materials that are as tough as glass fibre/epoxy boards when the board
is finished. I think they're as hard, but more brittle.

 

[Eeyore]

I've seen stuff like that, it seems to be made the same way, by a resin and
fibrous material rather than a woven cloth. It's still an epoxy resin
though, the stuff I saw was more like a ceramic for hardness than SRBP
could ever be. It even chipped like a ceramic at the edges. I don't know
what it is, exactly, but it seems to be a way to use the SRBP-type process
with materials that are as tough as glass fibre/epoxy boards when the board
is finished. I think they're as hard, but more brittle.

I've known it as 'composite' material. I first used it in 1980. You can get it
in white as well as blue. You might be surpised just how flexible it is
actually. Phenolic's much more brittle.

Subsequently I've discovered it's called CEM1.

Your assessment's correct too. That is indeed how it's used. It even may be
punchable.
However this guy Phildo has got it into his head that it's phenolic.

Graham

 

[Jamie]

Proof QSC is using single sided phenolic paper PCBs.

Phildo "

The poster 'Phildo' a sound mixing engineer who mixes sound on cruise liners and posts in alt.audio.pro.live-sound is apparently under the
impression that one of the products above contains phenolic-paper pcbs.

Apparently my word that it's not isn't good enough for him.

Comments welcome.


Graham

Hey, not to change the subject to much. I just had an
associate friend return from London, she said every thing
over there is over priced, over rated, to many tea suckers
just sitting around, with out a care in the world thinking that
every one else is low life. Fuel $8+ per what ever system you use
over there etc.. 2 bed room flat which her friend is going to sell
and expects to 500kp ($1M bucks) with a tiny kitchen that you can't
do squat in! just because it's next to the Tube! and what the hell
kind of name is that any ways?
Oh yeah, i understand they are still looking for the prostitute killer
over there ?, sounds like some one may have gotten more than they
bargained for and is now disgruntle! any relation of yours

 

[RST Engineering \(jw\)]

That is a paraphrased line from the complaint of many Brits during WWII when
our airmen were over there saving their sorry asses from being wiped from
the planet. They said that there were three things wrong with Yankee
fliers -- they were overpaid, oversexed, and over here.

Jim

 

[martin griffith]

Eeyore wrote: snip original stuff
Hey, not to change the subject to much. I just had an
associate friend return from London, she said every thing
over there is over priced, over rated, to many tea suckers
just sitting around, with out a care in the world thinking that
every one else is low life. Fuel $8+ per what ever system you use
over there etc.. 2 bed room flat which her friend is going to sell
and expects to 500kp ($1M bucks) with a tiny kitchen that you can't
do squat in! just because it's next to the Tube! and what the hell
kind of name is that any ways?
Oh yeah, i understand they are still looking for the prostitute killer
over there ?, sounds like some one may have gotten more than they
bargained for and is now disgruntle! any relation of yours

Yep The UK is so expensive. It's much cheaper here in Spain, but just
been looking at Brazil. Incrediby cheap
http://www.brazil-property-investment.com/


martin

 

[martin griffith]

That is a paraphrased line from the complaint of many Brits during WWII when
our airmen were over there saving their sorry asses from being wiped from
the planet. They said that there were three things wrong with Yankee
fliers -- they were overpaid, oversexed, and over here.

Jim

That may not be entirely accurate:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2437544_1,00.html


martin

 

[John Larkin]

From the above link.......

" http://i10.tinypic.com/2zfsff8.jpg
http://i7.tinypic.com/4htbcbp.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/29bgglt.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/40ljq53.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/44rdbuv.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/2nbepw9.jpg

Proof QSC is using single sided phenolic paper PCBs.

Phildo "

The poster 'Phildo' a sound mixing engineer who mixes sound on cruise liners and posts in alt.audio.pro.live-sound is apparently under the
impression that one of the products above contains phenolic-paper pcbs.

Apparently my word that it's not isn't good enough for him.

Comments welcome.


Graham

I can't see what the debate is about. The type of laminate is entirely
irrelevant at frequencies below hundreds of MHz.

But why is audio gear, especially "professional" audio gear, so ugly
inside? The average Technics stereo receiver looks positively elegant
next to the pics of this toad.

John

 

[George M. Middius]

Phildo said:

Geez, you really are pissed after making a total tit of yourself Graham. Of
course you conveniently removed all the URLs where you promised to bring
your lawyers to bear

<yawn>

Yo, I'm bored so I read those posts. Poopie made a vague threat about maybe
getting lawyers involved. That Gleason churl reminds me Phyllis from Oz.

Is this the best you've got against Poopie B'ar? He's a buzzing bladder of
bile, you know. He makes up sex fantasies to try to impress people he
doesn't know. He rattles on about DBTs he's never been within a mile of
seeing, let alone participated in. He rails endlessly about all the nice
stuff he can't afford. So why are you fixated on his pompous prating about
"libel"? He gives everybody tons of opportunities to flay him for being a
dickwad about everything else.

 

[Eeyore]

I can't see what the debate is about. The type of laminate is entirely
irrelevant at frequencies below hundreds of MHz.

I see where you're coming from. The suitability from the purely electrical charcteristics perspective wasn't at issue.

There is however a particularly big marketing thing wrt 'professional' gear not containing phenolic based boards since these are seen as being
suitable purely for consumer product. It has to be said that epoxy laminates take heat rather better too.

But why is audio gear, especially "professional" audio gear, so ugly
inside?

I just knew someone would mention that.

The average Technics stereo receiver looks positively elegant
next to the pics of this toad.

This kit's made for ease of servicing amongst other things rather than looks.

Graham

 

[Richard Crowley]

But why is audio gear, especially "professional" audio gear, so ugly
inside? The average Technics stereo receiver looks positively elegant
next to the pics of this toad.

Professionals don't care what it looks like, particuarly inside.
They care about things like value for the $$$, reliability,
repairability, etc. Give me pro stuff any day over some
pretty-face consumer junk.

The nicer it looks inside, the more of my $$ went into
making it look nice, which is of *negative* value to me
because it could have gone into better components or
a more reasonable price.

 

[Richard Crowley]

" http://i10.tinypic.com/2zfsff8.jpg
http://i7.tinypic.com/4htbcbp.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/29bgglt.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/40ljq53.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/44rdbuv.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/2nbepw9.jpg

Proof QSC is using single sided phenolic paper PCBs.

Phildo "

The poster 'Phildo' a sound mixing engineer who mixes sound on cruise
liners and posts in alt.audio.pro.live-sound is apparently under the
impression that one of the products above contains phenolic-paper
pcbs.

Apparently my word that it's not isn't good enough for him.

Have you actually peeked under the sheet metal of the
QSC yourself, first-hand?

Else, based on nothing but the photos cited above, I'd have
to agree that the QSC sure looks like it is using phenolic
circuit boards.

As others have observed, at audio frequencies the dielectric
properties aren't really an issue. But the mechanical strength
is. And the reputation/prestige of the vendor.

As you can see from the photos, the larger QSC board
requires many more standoffs to support the larger size
and/or lower strength of the phenol-paper board

I grew up associating phenolic-paper which cheap, mass-
produced for pennies, consumer stuff including throw-away
things like even greeting cards, etc.

And the jumper wires (and just the size of the boards) are a
very strong indicator of single-sided, another sign of cheaped-
out production design. I should know, I've done it myself.

From those photos, the QSC looks like the original design
which has been "cost engineered" to stay competitive, and
the Europower example looks like a 2nd or 3rd generation
version (albeit an obvious clone).

Behr may deserve strong criticism for not doing their own
designs, but they (or perhaps their Chinese contractor?)
appear to have brought the design up to date with better
materials/manufacturing.

Of course, it doesn't take Behr to clone a successfull design
and run with it, the Chinese have a reputation for doing it
all by themselves, sometimes off-shift on the same assembly
line as the original. And sometimes even with the same
sequence of serial numbers.

 

[Eeyore]

That is a paraphrased line from the complaint of many Brits during WWII when
our airmen were over there saving their sorry asses from being wiped from
the planet.

The usual Yank revisionism. Or is it simply bad education ?

The USAAF wasn't significantly involved in any defensive operations.

The RAF had defeated the Luftwaffe's attempt to gain air superiority over
Britain about 18 months before USAAF aircraft even arrived in the UK. Even if
they'd failed, an attempt at an invasion would never have got past the Royal
Navy.

Even with US aircraft to help bomb targets in occupied Europe, the RAF's bomber
command vastly exceeded the tonnage of bombs dropped by American crews.

Graham

 

[John Larkin]

Phildo said:


<yawn>

Yo, I'm bored so I read those posts. Poopie made a vague threat about maybe
getting lawyers involved. That Gleason churl reminds me Phyllis from Oz.

Is this the best you've got against Poopie B'ar? He's a buzzing bladder of
bile, you know. He makes up sex fantasies to try to impress people he
doesn't know. He rattles on about DBTs he's never been within a mile of
seeing, let alone participated in. He rails endlessly about all the nice
stuff he can't afford. So why are you fixated on his pompous prating about
"libel"? He gives everybody tons of opportunities to flay him for being a
dickwad about everything else.

Audio, because it's basically simple but (arguably) unmeasurable and
subjective, provides a fertile ground for great confrontations of
small minds.

That "professional" amp is still crap, from a packaging and parts
standpoint. I'd sure hate to have to replace a few of those fets. Any
truly professional product wouldn't say "Professional" on its front
panel. Tektronix and HP never made "Professional" instruments.

John

 

[Eeyore]

in ...

Have you actually peeked under the sheet metal of the
QSC yourself, first-hand?
Yup.


Else, based on nothing but the photos cited above, I'd have
to agree that the QSC sure looks like it is using phenolic
circuit boards.

Phenolic boards are brown in colour. What were you thinking of ?

As others have observed, at audio frequencies the dielectric
properties aren't really an issue. But the mechanical strength
is. And the reputation/prestige of the vendor.

For sure.

As you can see from the photos, the larger QSC board
requires many more standoffs to support the larger size
and/or lower strength of the phenol-paper board

Aside from it not being phenolic ( I'm surprised you madfe that mistake but it
might help me understand why Phildo thought that too ) it's just a different
design approach.

All phenolic boards are brown AFAIK btw. You can also see the glass mat in the
surface finish of QSC's pcbs which doesn't appear in paper-phenolic of course.

I grew up associating phenolic-paper which cheap, mass-
produced for pennies, consumer stuff including throw-away
things like even greeting cards, etc.

You'll certainly find it there, as you will in many TVs, CD/DVD players etc etc
many of which have long lifetimes.

And the jumper wires (and just the size of the boards) are a
very strong indicator of single-sided, another sign of cheaped-
out production design. I should know, I've done it myself.

Call it cost-effective ! I've done it myself to avoid the cost of a double sided
pcb.

From those photos, the QSC looks like the original design
which has been "cost engineered" to stay competitive, and
the Europower example looks like a 2nd or 3rd generation
version (albeit an obvious clone).

Spot on.

Behr may deserve strong criticism for not doing their own
designs, but they (or perhaps their Chinese contractor?)
appear to have brought the design up to date with better
materials/manufacturing.

Aside from their choice of epoxy-glass pcbs over composite, there's precious
little between them quite frankly.

Of course, it doesn't take Behr to clone a successfull design
and run with it, the Chinese have a reputation for doing it
all by themselves, sometimes off-shift on the same assembly
line as the original. And sometimes even with the same
sequence of serial numbers.

I can believe that but I understnd that Behringer does actually run its own
factories out there now. I have visited one of their former sub-contractors
though ( Kwan Asia ) and they're a competent outfit.

Graham

 

[Phildo]

<snip>

Geez, you really are pissed after making a total tit of yourself Graham. Of
course you conveniently removed all the URLs where you promised to bring
your lawyers to bear which turned out to be a whole lot of hot air on your
part.

Try these links instead where you humiliate yourself:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...ea9a6/8981f42abdc1c49c?hl=en#8981f42abdc1c49c

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...18abc/0076c0cf6cfa233e?hl=en#0076c0cf6cfa233e

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...87446/9a1e26634409b06d?hl=en#9a1e26634409b06d

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...617cd/7cb5d1e930aa5553?hl=en#7cb5d1e930aa5553

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...e0b72/ae385e513342926c?hl=en#ae385e513342926c

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...0d352/b7d5f33a1f6e695b?hl=en#b7d5f33a1f6e695b

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...69a9a/92faa1c9890b196a?hl=en#92faa1c9890b196a

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...bcf59/4e68c98e0090d7e6?hl=en#4e68c98e0090d7e6

Phildo

 

[Eeyore]

Audio, because it's basically simple but (arguably) unmeasurable and
subjective, provides a fertile ground for great confrontations of
small minds.

That "professional" amp is still crap, from a packaging and parts
standpoint.

How would you improve it yourself ?

I'd sure hate to have to replace a few of those fets.

It's bipolars actually. You should see some other amps if you think that's tricky
btw.

Any
truly professional product wouldn't say "Professional" on its front
panel. Tektronix and HP never made "Professional" instruments.

It's all marketing.

Both amps are targeted at the grey area between MI ( musical instrument ) and
serious SR ( sound reinforcement ) use.

Graham

 

[Phildo]

I can't see what the debate is about.

It's just Graham pissed after he was made to look a complete idiot on a
newsgroup, mostly through his own words and posting while drunk.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...ea9a6/8981f42abdc1c49c?hl=en#8981f42abdc1c49c

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...18abc/0076c0cf6cfa233e?hl=en#0076c0cf6cfa233e

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...87446/9a1e26634409b06d?hl=en#9a1e26634409b06d

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...617cd/7cb5d1e930aa5553?hl=en#7cb5d1e930aa5553

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...e0b72/ae385e513342926c?hl=en#ae385e513342926c

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...0d352/b7d5f33a1f6e695b?hl=en#b7d5f33a1f6e695b

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...69a9a/92faa1c9890b196a?hl=en#92faa1c9890b196a

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/al...bcf59/4e68c98e0090d7e6?hl=en#4e68c98e0090d7e6

That will give you the full story.

Phildo

 

[Eeyore]

Phildo said:


<yawn>

Yo, I'm bored so I read those posts. Poopie made a vague threat about maybe
getting lawyers involved. That Gleason churl reminds me Phyllis from Oz.

Is this the best you've got against Poopie B'ar? He's a buzzing bladder of
bile, you know.

And you're *not* ? Good heavens !

He makes up sex fantasies to try to impress people he
doesn't know.

There's no way my imagination is fertile enought to make that stuff up !

He rattles on about DBTs he's never been within a mile of
seeing, let alone participated in.

Please feel free to quote as much as a single comment I've ever made about DBTs !
Heck, Kreuger disapproves of my subjective comments, notably about QSC amps
sounding crap.

He rails endlessly about all the nice
stuff he can't afford.

Cite ?

Graham

 

[Richard Crowley]

"Eeyore" wrote ...

Phenolic boards are brown in colour. What were you thinking of ?

At least here on our side of the pond, you can get board
substrates manufactured in whatever color you wish.

The final appearance of color is a combination of...
1) The original substrate color of the board.
2) Presence (or not) of copper circuit paths/areas.
3) The color of the solder mask
4) The transparency of the solder mask

From your stated electronics experience, I would have
thought that you had encountered these varistions.

All phenolic boards are brown AFAIK btw. You can also see the glass
mat in the
surface finish of QSC's pcbs which doesn't appear in paper-phenolic of
course.

The "grain" looks way too big and to uniform to be
woven fiberglass. At least from my experience in the
fiberglass industry. But it is possible that it could be
some kind of fiberglass "gauze" like material for just
a bit of mechanical strength. Certainly better than
pure phenol-paper.

You'll certainly find it there, as you will in many TVs, CD/DVD
players etc etc
many of which have long lifetimes.

But nothing like the stresses of big heavy industrial
equipment like commercial sound reinforcement
amplifiers.