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Photodiode for an IR LASER

I need help finding and selecting the correct photodiode to use with a
780nm / 5mW IR LASER diode.

I want to create an infrared break-beam 650ft/200m long. I'm not
sure how to select the correct IR photodiode that will work with the IR
LASER I've selected. I'm also in need of a good cheap place to
purchase the photodiode (in the states).

Thanks.
 
D

Dave

Jan 1, 1970
0
I need help finding and selecting the correct photodiode to use with a
780nm / 5mW IR LASER diode.

I want to create an infrared break-beam 650ft/200m long. I'm not
sure how to select the correct IR photodiode that will work with the IR
LASER I've selected. I'm also in need of a good cheap place to
purchase the photodiode (in the states).

Thanks.
Silicon photodiodes work fine for that wavelenght. They are likely to be
your best choice and readily available.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
I need help finding and selecting the correct photodiode to use with a
780nm / 5mW IR LASER diode.

I want to create an infrared break-beam 650ft/200m long. I'm not
sure how to select the correct IR photodiode that will work with the IR
LASER I've selected. I'm also in need of a good cheap place to
purchase the photodiode (in the states).

Thanks.
I have no idea what sensitive area you need or what frequency
response, but diodes with a visible blocking filter built in are easy
to use and quite low cost. Here are a couple examples available from
Digikey:
PD481PI
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Sharp/Web Data/tec_datasheet_pd49pi_481pi.pdf

PDB-C158F
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Photonic Detectors/Web Data/pdbc158.pdf

BPW34FA
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Osram/Web Data/bpw34fa_fas.pdf

If you use a detector in an T1 3/4 LED package it may be enough of a
lens to ignore some interference from the side:
PDB-C142F
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Photonic Detectors/Web Data/pdbc142.pdf

These are really optimized for 880 nm LED sources, so using the
unfiltered version would slightly increase the sensitivity to 780 nm,
but would let in a lot of interfering daylight.
BPW34 is representative of many unfiltered silicon photo diodes:
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Osram/Web Data/bpw34_spdf.pdf
 
John,

Thanks for the reply. As you mentioned none of these seem optimized
for 780nm. Are photodiodes optimized for 780nm hard to come by?
Should I be looking for a different IR LASER diode the will be more
compatible with the available IR photodiodes?

I'm going to be using this breakbeam outdoors in very bright light, so
I think I'll need the daylight filters.

For the IR LASER diode the Wavelength @ Peak Emission (min/max) is
770-799nM

Thanks.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
John,

Thanks for the reply. As you mentioned none of these seem optimized
for 780nm. Are photodiodes optimized for 780nm hard to come by?
Should I be looking for a different IR LASER diode the will be more
compatible with the available IR photodiodes?

I don't know of any silicon diodes that come with filters optimized
for 780 nm, but the ones centered on 880 nm usually pass about 50 to
70% at 780 nm. You can certainly use an unfiltered diode and add your
own long pass filter that passes more than the prefiltered diodes do.

An example of a filter glass that would pass 780 nm efficiently:
http://www.us.schott.com/optics_devices/filter/english/us/pdf/rg715_e.pdf
I'm going to be using this breakbeam outdoors in very bright light, so
I think I'll need the daylight filters.

For the IR LASER diode the Wavelength @ Peak Emission (min/max) is
770-799nM

Are you modulating the laser at some frequency?

What kind of collection optics do you imagine?
There are some plastic Fresnel lenses that are made with IR long pass
filter material (I.E Poly IR6).
http://www.fresneltech.com/pdf/FresnelLenses.pdf
 
John,

Do you think there is a better IR laser diode that is around 880nm so I
don't have to take the extra step of adding my own filter?

My plan was to just run the laser as is, do you think it would be a
good idea to modulate the laser?

My whole set up was going to be:
1. IR laser diode (focused on 2)
2. IR photo diode (connected to 3)
3. High Speed Analog Input Module (weedtech.com Model:WTPCT-M)
connected to a PC.

Then I would write a simple program to monitor the photodiode
continuously and report every time the IR laser diode is not pointed on
the photodiode (whenever something is obstructing the beam).

What do you think?
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
John,

Do you think there is a better IR laser diode that is around 880nm so I
don't have to take the extra step of adding my own filter?

I think you should start with a diode filtered for 880 and see how
much signal you can pull out. A 1/2" RG715 filter from Edmond Optical
costs about $14. You can build a bit of amplifier for that.
My plan was to just run the laser as is, do you think it would be a
good idea to modulate the laser?

Yes, a very good idea. This eliminates any need for DC accuracy, low
frequency noise or stability in the detector amplifier. At the very
least, you amplify a signal that passes through a band pass filter at
about the right frequency, eliminating the static background
illumination and the 120 Hz flicker caused by line powered lights. At
the best, you make the band pass filter a lock in amplifier driven by
the modulating signal, so that it amplifies not only the correct
frequency, but when synchronously demodulated, only the correct phase.

This will pull a badly corrupted signal out of a large amount of
background noise.
My whole set up was going to be:
1. IR laser diode (focused on 2)

Have you thought about eye safety, and what happens if someone stares
into the beam? You may need to expand it to a significant beam
diameter to keep much of it entering the eye's pupil. Or you hang a
sign over the laser that says, "Don't stare into the laser with the
remaining, good eye."
2. IR photo diode (connected to 3)

Here is where I see the need for a lens that collects collimated beam
over as large a area as possible and concentrates it onto the diode.
You can add a tube in front of the lens to help block stray light.

You don't say how far 2 is from 1. Is this an inch or a mile?
3. High Speed Analog Input Module (weedtech.com Model:WTPCT-M)
connected to a PC.

If you have signal problems, the bandpass filter and rectifier or lock
in amplifier goes between detector and analog input.
Then I would write a simple program to monitor the photodiode
continuously and report every time the IR laser diode is not pointed on
the photodiode (whenever something is obstructing the beam).

What do you think?

Do not stare into the laser with the remaining, good eye. IR lasers
are more dangerous than visible ones, because they do not trigger the
blink reflex.
 
?
My plan was to just run the laser as is, do you think it would be a
good idea to modulate the laser?

My whole set up was going to be:
1. IR laser diode (focused on 2)
2. IR photo diode (connected to 3)
3. High Speed Analog Input Module (weedtech.com Model:WTPCT-M)
connected to a PC.

You have to modulate the beam, the smaller the bandwidth or your
reciever the better. Lasers are not the best choice for
transmitter,very hard to keep aligned at that distace, any reasonable
IR emitter with a lens will do.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote: ....

Do not stare into the laser with the remaining, good eye. IR lasers
are more dangerous than visible ones, because they do not trigger the
blink reflex.

I wonder, how do you point it? You can't see the spot. Telescopic IR
camera?

Thanks,
Rich
 
Thanks for the reply John.
I think you should start with a diode filtered for 880 and see how
much signal you can pull out. A 1/2" RG715 filter from Edmond Optical
costs about $14. You can build a bit of amplifier for that.

I searched around for the filter you were talking about on
edmondoptics.com but I couldn't find the one you mentioned, can you
give me a link? You also mentioned an amplifier, is this something I
will definitely need? If so, how do I go about building one?
This eliminates any need for DC accuracy, low
frequency noise or stability in the detector amplifier.

Can you explain what you mean by "DC accuracy"? How do I go about
modulating the laser? Is there a step by step guide for this online
somewhere?
At the very least, you amplify a signal that passes through a band pass filter at
about the right frequency, eliminating the static background
illumination and the 120 Hz flicker caused by line powered lights.

Can you help me select the correct band pass filter to filter out
"eliminating the static background
illumination and the 120 Hz flicker caused by line powered lights?"
What would be the correct frequency?
At the best, you make the band pass filter a lock in amplifier driven by
the modulating signal, so that it amplifies not only the correct
frequency, but when synchronously demodulated, only the correct phase.

Okay, if this is the best way to do it, then this is what I want to do.
I want this to work as well as it can. Although, how do I go about
making the band pass filter a lock in amplifier driven by the
modulating signal, so that it amplifies not only the correct frequency,
but when synchronously demodulated, only the correct phase? Is there a
step by step guide somewhere that explains how to do this?
Have you thought about eye safety, and what happens if someone stares
into the beam? You may need to expand it to a significant beam
diameter to keep much of it entering the eye's pupil.

I am definitely concerned with eye safety, but I've had very little
experience with lasers so I'm not sure what precautions to take. If
I expand the beam diameter (how do I do this?) to keep much of it from
entering the eye's pupil, how do I refocus it back down to the
diameter of the IR receiver, or can I just leave it as a large
diameter? And by the way, how large of a diameter would I need to
increase the beam to keep much of the laser from entering the eye's
pupil? Also, won't this cause diffusion of the beam and prevent me
from projecting the beam 650feet (or 200m)?

Here is where I see the need for a lens that collects collimated beam
over as large a area as possible and concentrates it onto the diode.
You can add a tube in front of the lens to help block stray light.

This sounds like a great idea, can you help me select the correct lens?
You don't say how far 2 is from 1. Is this an inch or a mile?

650feet (or 200m)

Sorry, for all the questions. Thank you so much for your help.
 
Can you explain, how I go about modulating the beam? Is this something
that I have to tweak on the diode driver?

Why will an IR emitter with a lens be easier to align at 650feet than
an IR laser diode?
 
I wonder, how do you point it? You can't see the spot. Telescopic IR
camera?

Rich,

That is a really good question. I guess I'll try and get the laser and
photodiode at the exact same elevation, then use a level and a compass
to try and dial them in. Then, I'll just monitor the photodiode with a
PC to see when its reading the most IR energy.

If anyone has any ideas on how to do this, I'd be very interested.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
I searched around for the filter you were talking about on
edmondoptics.com but I couldn't find the one you mentioned, can you
give me a link? You also mentioned an amplifier, is this something I
will definitely need? If so, how do I go about building one?

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=1512&search=1
About 2 screens down the list, glass reference number RG715.

Larger ones are further down.
Can you explain what you mean by "DC accuracy"? How do I go about
modulating the laser? Is there a step by step guide for this online
somewhere?

Measuring steady intensity requires DC stability (constant gain,
constant offset, with low level of low frequency noise). The noise
level of opamps rises as the frequency falls.

Modulating the source at a constant frequency allows you to pass the
signal through a bandpass filter you need constant gain at that
frequency, and low noise only in that band. DC drift doesn't matter
at all, and the only noise you deal with is that in the pass band.
Then you rectify the amplified AC to restore the intensity
information. If you can do synchronous rectification (reversing the
sign of the gain each time the laser changes from off to on and vice
versa)_you have a lock in amplifier that rejects noise that gets
through the band pass filter but is not synchronous with the laser
modulation. (If the noise is random, some gets amplified with one
polarity and some gets amplified with the other polarity, so a bit of
averaging after the demodulation averages it out to near zero.)

This approach may need an adjustable phase shifter before the
demodulation to correct for the phase shift through the system for
maximum output. A true lock in amplifier would demodulate two signals
with 90 degree phase shift and take the square root of the sum of the
squares of the two DC results to find the magnitude of the modulated
signal, regardless of its phase. But that is probably way more
capability than you need, here.

Can you help me select the correct band pass filter to filter out
"eliminating the static background
illumination and the 120 Hz flicker caused by line powered lights?"
What would be the correct frequency?

You want as high a frequency that does not degrade the signal with
either the laser or photo diode response. A few to a few tens of
kilohertz is common. The bandpass filter is usually just an active
filter made with the opamps that amplify the photo diode signal.

A nice little filter design program is available free from Texas
Instruments:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fol...pa_amp_general&HQS=NotApplicable+OT+filterpro

Here is another one from Microchip, though I haven't used it, yet.
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en010007
Okay, if this is the best way to do it, then this is what I want to do.
I want this to work as well as it can. Although, how do I go about
making the band pass filter a lock in amplifier driven by the
modulating signal, so that it amplifies not only the correct frequency,
but when synchronously demodulated, only the correct phase? Is there a
step by step guide somewhere that explains how to do this?

Do you know how to make an amplifier that switches from a positive
gain to a negative gain using a cmos switch? There are several ways,
including just have two amplifiers in parallel, one inverting, and one
with the same gain but non inverting, and selecting back and forth
between them with a SPDT CMOS switch. you get 3 of these in a CD4053.
http://www.ee.washington.edu/stores/DataSheets/cd4000/cd4051.pdf

It can also be done with a single opamp and a SPDT switch like one of
the 4 in a CD4066. (which you can combine to make the double throw
switch, above.)
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/CD/CD4066BC.pdf

You need the modulation pulse signal from the laser available at the
photo diode location to make this work. So it might not be practical
if they are widely separated, without running a long cable.
I am definitely concerned with eye safety, but I've had very little
experience with lasers so I'm not sure what precautions to take. If
I expand the beam diameter (how do I do this?) to keep much of it from
entering the eye's pupil, how do I refocus it back down to the
diameter of the IR receiver, or can I just leave it as a large
diameter?

A pair of lenses (a small concave one to fan the beam out and a larger
convex one to collimate it back to a parallel but larger beam is one
way. There is still some danger, if the beam bounces off a shiny
surface that happens to refocus it, but simply intercepting the wider
beam is a lot less dangerous then looking directly into the
concentrated one. It is also easier to get the wider beam somewhere
on the detector. A single convex focusing lens can be used at the
detector to gather enough of the beam to let it operate. If the beam
is several times the diameter of the collection lens, there should
still be enough signal for a clean recovery, and a lot less problems
with beam aiming. Put the visible blocking filter (if any)right
against the detector to minimize the need for a big filter.
And by the way, how large of a diameter would I need to
increase the beam to keep much of the laser from entering the eye's
pupil?

How expensive is your lawyer? The calculations are pretty
complicated. I'll see if I can find the fat document that defines the
safety standards. But it depends mainly on the power of the laser.
If its power is low enough the raw beam may be safe.
Also, won't this cause diffusion of the beam and prevent me
from projecting the beam 650feet (or 200m)?

You will have a pretty fat beam at 650 feet, even if you try to make
the beam as small as you can. Spreading it properly will just make it
fat all the way over, instead of cone shaped. You may also need a
circularizing lens at the laser to change the fan shaped beam from the
die into a more round beam.
Homework:
http://www.coherent.com/Downloads/LaserDiodeTechNote1.pdf

Adding a cylinder lens to the collimation optics can really improve
the beam collimation.

You may need a stand in visible laser in the same package as the IR
laser to test the optics.
This sounds like a great idea, can you help me select the correct lens?

You don't need a high quality image, just gathering, so a plastic
Fresnel is probably the lowest cost, large but short focal length lens
you can get.

They sell them the size of large screen televisions, but I think a few
inches in diameter might do.
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2039&search=1
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2040&search=1
650feet (or 200m)

Doesn't fit in a mouse, then. ;-)
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Can you explain, how I go about modulating the beam? Is this something
that I have to tweak on the diode driver?

You simple turn the laser on and off with a square wave.
Why will an IR emitter with a lens be easier to align at 650feet than
an IR laser diode?

It won't produce a nice a beam, but if you make a multi watt array of
LEDs a foot across, and use narrow angle LEDs (and maybe a Fresnel
lens in front of that) you can throw a lot of light that you don't
align so much as point in the general direction and flood the area.

And being a big fat beam that can't be focused to a point, it is no
danger to a tiny pupil.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Can you explain, how I go about modulating the beam? Is this something
that I have to tweak on the diode driver?

Why will an IR emitter with a lens be easier to align at 650feet than
an IR laser diode?
Here is an example of a cheap, high output, narrow angle LED that is a
perfect fit to the filtered photo diodes.
http://www.vishay.com/docs/81090/81090.pdf
 
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