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Is this antenna article serious?

J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Can anyone comment on the reality (or lack thereof) of the "Energy
Sucking Radio Antenna" described here:

http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html


Thx,
Paul


This very group had an extended thread on this subject, started by Mr
Beaty as I recall. Nothing he says is remarkable: a short antenna can
be matched with a high-Q tuning network such that it radiates like a
longer antenna. And antannas are reciprocal devices. So a short
receive antenna can be tuned to radiate or gather as much energy as,
say, a half-wave dipole. It just takes a very high-Q matching network;
the smaller the antenna, the higher the Q.

The ball-lightning and stuff seems over the top, though.


John
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
This very group had an extended thread on this subject, started by Mr
Beaty as I recall. Nothing he says is remarkable: a short antenna can
be matched with a high-Q tuning network such that it radiates like a
longer antenna. And antannas are reciprocal devices. So a short
receive antenna can be tuned to radiate or gather as much energy as,
say, a half-wave dipole. It just takes a very high-Q matching network;
the smaller the antenna, the higher the Q.

For atoms and EM radiation, the Q is really high. For the one case I just
calculated, the Q works out to be about 10^8. If you take the frequency
of line and the line width for the Q value, that is.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
For atoms and EM radiation, the Q is really high. For the one case I just
calculated, the Q works out to be about 10^8. If you take the frequency
of line and the line width for the Q value, that is.
He lost me at the imaginary Bussard ramscoop.

Cheers!
Rich
 
C

ChrisGibboGibson

Jan 1, 1970
0
(Paul S) said:
Can anyone comment on the reality (or lack thereof) of the "Energy
Sucking Radio Antenna" described here:

http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html

As John said there was, a few years ago, a very, very long thread on this very
subject.

It may still be archived. I think google no longer archive this group and they
may have deleted all the old stuff. A great shame if they have.

Firstly. It does indeed work. Apparently some commercial uses of it are
available.

The problem lies in the description of *how* and *why* it works with almost
no-one agreeing on it.

Many engineers dismiss it and simply refuse to accept that it works.

Of those that do agree it works, almost none of them agree on *how* it works.

I personally think the description given in the link above is the correct
explanation. But others will disagree.

Gibbo
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul S <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
Can anyone comment on the reality (or lack thereof) of the "Energy
Sucking Radio Antenna" described here:

http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
It's largely out in left field (US metaphor and pun combined), but with
a grain of truth. A resonant loop can concentrate a weak r.f. field from
a distant transmitter sufficiently to allow an ordinary AM radio with a
ferrite rod antenna (loopstick) to receive it quite well. I made one of
these and called it a 'passive amplifier', with predictable incredulous
reactions. But it's just a coil wound on a cardboard box about 2 feet on
a side and an air-spaced variable capacitor in parallel. No transistors,
batteries, etc.

The electric field analogy (long wire antenna tuned to resonance by a
series capacitor) exists in theory, but is physically much larger and
not normally very practicable.
 
C

ChrisGibboGibson

Jan 1, 1970
0
(Paul S) said:
Can anyone comment on the reality (or lack thereof) of the "Energy
Sucking Radio Antenna" described here:

http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html

Hint. Think magnetic field.... short range effect. Think electric field....
short range effect. When the two go together, ie an electromagnetic field....
very long range effect. Each one reinforces the other. That's the important
part
..
Therefore if you can manipulate one, you automatically manipulate the other.

And as I said, everyone seems to disagree on this "energy sucking" idea. So
when the flames start I will not respond.

Gibbo
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>


The Tnuctipun must have deleted that from the site, because I can't find
it.
--

http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
http://www.amasci.com/graphics/dp-absb2.gif

Right on the main page, about 5 screenscrolls down (maybe more if you
display fewer lines), under 'A "HOLE" IN PHYSICS', "Fig 1. Energy flux lines
for the nearfield region of a resonant absorber. The tiny absorber acts like
a large disk."

Looks kinda like a monopole, or very much like one of my metaphysical
magical mystical metaphenomena. I've never metaphenomenon I didn't like. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...
This very group had an extended thread on this subject, started by
Mr Beaty as I recall. Nothing he says is remarkable: a short antenna
can be matched with a high-Q tuning network such that it radiates
like a longer antenna. And antannas are reciprocal devices. So a
short receive antenna can be tuned to radiate or gather as much
energy as, say, a half-wave dipole. It just takes a very high-Q
matching network; the smaller the antenna, the higher the Q.

Indeed, a standard part of Poynting vector classical EM physics,
and antenna design. One could start their investigation with the
nice article by CF Bohren, "How can a particle absorb more than
the light incident on it," Am J Phys 51 (4), April 1983, pg 323,
and follow the citation links. For example, ZB Wang in Physical
Review B 70, pg 035418, 30July 2004. It's also become a newly-
interesting subject in the high-tech field of nanoparticles, e.g.
S Papernov, J Applied Physics 92 (10) pg 5270, 15Nov 2002.

A useful way to think of the scene in energy terms is to realize
that very small antennas have a high impedance, hence the required
high-Q network. It becomes a matter of extracting energy at high
voltages and low currents (from the external field). Even though
the resonant currents may be fairly high, one cannot directly
extract this as the Q would be spoiled.

Alternately, consider low-frequency active receiving antennas,
which are very short compared to the wavelength. These dispense
with trying to extract the energy, and the high Q required, and
simply use a high-impedance preamp to grab the antenna voltage.
The only resonant elements involved would be parallel series LC
traps, tuned to attenuate strong (local) RF sources that would
otherwise overload the wideband preamp.
The ball-lightning and stuff seems over the top, though.

Well, ball lightning is certainly another story.
 
G

Guy Macon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill said:
Indeed, a standard part of Poynting vector classical EM physics,

A.K.A. "The science most likely to be mangled by an editor's spellchecker"...
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>
Right on the main page, about 5 screenscrolls down (maybe more if you
display fewer lines), under 'A "HOLE" IN PHYSICS', "Fig 1. Energy flux
lines for the nearfield region of a resonant absorber. The tiny absorber
acts like a large disk."

Looks kinda like a monopole, or very much like one of my metaphysical
magical mystical metaphenomena. I've never metaphenomenon I didn't like.

I thought you meant that there was a specific reference to a Bussard
ramjet.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Guy Macon <http@?.guymacon.com>
wrote (in said:
A.K.A. "The science most likely to be mangled by an editor's spellchecker"...
The term 'Poynting vector' is a tautology; all vectors point.
 
T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Guy Macon <http@?.guymacon.com>


The term 'Poynting vector' is a tautology; all vectors point.

They term "Pointing vector" would be tautology. Speaking of the vector
invented by John Henry Poynting isn't.

In which case you were making stupid puns; if you were that one Hertz.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Guy Macon <http@?.guymacon.com>

The term 'Poynting vector' is a tautology; all vectors point.
--
Geez, now you've really spoiled it for me. The student has surpassed
the master. Have you recently been in a room filled with pot smokers?

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>


I thought you meant that there was a specific reference to a Bussard
ramjet.

Nah, just that it uses some imaginary construct to make a big scoop.

Sorry.
Rich
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>
Nah, just that it uses some imaginary construct to make a big scoop.

Sorry.

De nada. But the pattern of field lines in the region of the tuned loop
or ferrite rod does look as if the energy is being 'sucked' through the
device. I'll chicken out of trying to do it in ASCII art, though.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
Geez, now you've really spoiled it for me. The student has surpassed
the master. Have you recently been in a room filled with pot smokers?
I confess that it's not original. I think the author might have been
Marcus Scroggie, aka 'Cathode Ray', in a Christmas Festschrift.
 
J

John Todd

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>
wrote (in <rKa8d.4134$eq1.3864@trnddc08>) about 'Is this antenna
article serious?', on Mon, 4 Oct 2004:


I thought you meant that there was a specific reference to a Bussard
ramjet.


For a really great story concerning a Bussard engine,
read Poul Anderson's "Tau Zero"!
 
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