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High Frequency Component in Square Wave questions

E

emma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I learnt that square waves for examples produced by power
interver has high frequency components. What's the typical
value of the frequency supposed the source is 110 volts,
60 hertz. Is there no way to remove the high frequency
components? How does it affect the load?

emma
 
S

St. John Smythe

Jan 1, 1970
0
emma said:
I learnt that square waves for examples produced by power
interver has high frequency components.

Yes. That's what makes them square waves. Remove the high frequency
components, and you have sine waves.
What's the typical
value of the frequency supposed the source is 110 volts,
60 hertz.

Theoretically, multiple frequencies, extending to infinity.
Is there no way to remove the high frequency
components?

Yes, but not if you want to continue to have a square wave.
 
U

Uncle Al

Jan 1, 1970
0
emma said:
Hi,

I learnt that square waves for examples produced by power
interver has high frequency components. What's the typical
value of the frequency supposed the source is 110 volts,
60 hertz. Is there no way to remove the high frequency
components? How does it affect the load?

Bandpass filter.
 
Hi,

I learnt that square waves for examples produced by power
interver has high frequency components.

Of course. They have to.
What's the typical
value of the frequency supposed the source is 110 volts,
60 hertz.

There is no such thing as "typical value", it depends how close to
suare you want them to be.
Is there no way to remove the high frequency
components?

Of course. You can filter away all but the fundamental. In which
case you're back to a sine wave.
How does it affect the load?
That depends on the load.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
[email protected] | chances are he is doing just the same"
 
T

Tm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Uncle Al said:
Bandpass filter.
Low Pass will do it. But you will need more than a 110 volt square wave to
start with if you expect to get a 110 volt sine.

TM
 
E

emma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Guys,

I tried building a power inveter using two transistors as push-pull..
meaning if one is one, the other is off, this is connected to
12-0-12 transformer to produce 110 volts.

So as I understand it, when the transistor is in saturation, the
current is supposed to form the square wave amplitude. It is
not possible to raise it instantaneously that's why there is an
increasing effect. Now how does the high frequency component
got generated?? Also when it is in the maximum amplitude, how
does it generate the high frequency component in the square
waves?

What would it take to build a square wave power inverter that
totally eliminate the high frequencies riding in the square wave??

Thanks.

emma
 
J

Jerry

Jan 1, 1970
0
emma said:
Guys,

I tried building a power inveter using two transistors as push-pull..
meaning if one is one, the other is off, this is connected to
12-0-12 transformer to produce 110 volts.

So as I understand it, when the transistor is in saturation, the
current is supposed to form the square wave amplitude. It is
not possible to raise it instantaneously that's why there is an
increasing effect. Now how does the high frequency component
got generated?? Also when it is in the maximum amplitude, how
does it generate the high frequency component in the square
waves?

Try playing around with this Java applet:
http://www.aw-bc.com/ide/Media/JavaTools/srfoursq.html

If your browser doesn't support Java, read these
explanations:
http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m0041/latest/
http://www.geocities.com/ac_dc_ac/FourierEng.html
What would it take to build a square wave power inverter that
totally eliminate the high frequencies riding in the square wave??

Jerry
 
S

St. John Smythe

Jan 1, 1970
0
emma said:
What would it take to build a square wave power inverter that
totally eliminate the high frequencies riding in the square wave??

A repeal of some fundamental physical laws. As has already been
explained to you, when you remove the high frequencies, you no longer
have a square wave.
 
E

emma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
Any square wave can be thought of as an infinite amount of sine waves.
In practice you will have some harmonics, f, 2f, 3f, 4f etc.
Look up Fourier analysis.

Some inverters make a near square wave, some a modulated pulse width
that is filtered into an approximate sine wave, some just combine some
smaller square waves to make something that looks a bit like a sine.
Some make really good sine waves.


120, 180, 240, 300, etc, with varying amplitude.

Yes, LC filter, but you will lose some power.

So the high frequency can be removed. I thought they can't.
How complicated is the LC filter design to remove 100% of
the high frequency component in the square wave?
If you for some reason need a pure sine wave, get a converter that does that.

Many applications / appliances do not need a real good sine wave, as these
have their own power processing / power supplies - those could handle square
waves even.
In fact in some cases square wave could be beneficial.

In pure line Alternating Current (sine wave) from power companies.
Is there any high frequency component in the sine wave or is it
pure 100% 60 Hz AC??

emma
 
E

emma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
There are 2 ways, one is a low pass filter, the other a resonant
system.
Low pass is the simplest, it filters out everything above 60Hz
in this case.
It could be as simple as an inductor (L) in series with a capacitor
to ground.
But there are a lot of catches....
For this reason it will almost always be simpler to buy a converter that
already outputs a -reasonable- sine wave, simpler and cheaper then
designing and building one (given some initial likely failures).

First you will have to decide how 'pure' your sine wave should be.
How much power from harmonics should be allowed?

Perhaps it would be better if you specified what you need the
output for (what sort of equipment).

The output is feed to a resistive coil. I'm analyzing the magnetic
field produced by plotting it in 3D.

Suppose I have pure AC from the power lines. How would I add
high frequency component to it? Suppose I want to add 300 Hz
to ride on the sine wave, any idea how I can do that??

Another. Suppose I feed a function generator to a power amplifier.
Would the power amplifier introduce distortions to the signal
produced in the function generators? What's the worse distortion
that the power amp can introduce to it?

Thanks.

emma
 
E

emma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
Now 'resistive' and 'coil' are 2 things that contradict a bit.
Any coil will behave as an inductor (and have some resistance).
So you can view it as a R in series with an L.
(so Z = R + jwL, were 'w' stands for omega or 2 x pi x frequency).
From this you can see the 'impedance' depends on the frequency applied.

When I say resistive coil. It's not one load. I used an electric
bulb in the output.. then the coil is put in series to it. The
coil has reading of 1.7 ohms.

Do you know of a program where I can input the waveforms (i.e.
sine or square and its micropulsations) and it can output or plot
the magnetic field of the waveforms in 3D? I have to do it manually
and need something for comparison.

We have seen that the 'impedance' of the coil you use is very low
at low frequencies (practically near its resistance in Ohms), while
at higher frequencies it will have a higher impedance.

The amplifier should be able to drive the low impedance, say if the
coil is 4 Ohm, and the amplifier can drive 4 ohm speakers this should
be possible.

That means I can't use any 100 ohm lamp in the output of the speakers.
I can't find any AC resistor 110 volts at electronic stores. The
most they have is a 1 watt resistor for used in circuit. What's the
other names for AC resistors? Are their power amplifers that don't
have resistance limit in their output?
You will have to keep the output amplitude below clipping to keep a sine wave.
At the 300Hz, what the impedance is, depends on the inductance of the coil,
that is set by the number of turns and if there is some metal core.
How much current you can drive into the coil at frequency f is set by
the impedance and the peak to peak undistorted output from the amplifier
you use.
Here is a power amp I use for experiments, it is quite rigid and protected
against overload (within reason).
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/amplifier/

I won't build the amplifier. I have wasted so much time constructing
pcb, circuit, soldering for a function generator and variable power
inverter and it's only up to 9 khz. I want something as large as 10
megahertz. Can commercial function gen create very clean sine wave?
What's your function gen?

About the power amp. I want to buy a commercially available one.
Are older transistor based solid state circuit better or worse
compared to modern ic based power amp in preventing distortions
in the waveform sent from the function gen input?

What do you call power amps where it is not used for audio only
but also for function gen amplification??

I need to get very clean source so I can prevent any contaminations
of frequencies in the output.

Many thanks.

emma
 
In sci.physics emma said:
I tried building a power inveter using two transistors as push-pull..
meaning if one is one, the other is off, this is connected to
12-0-12 transformer to produce 110 volts.
So as I understand it, when the transistor is in saturation, the
current is supposed to form the square wave amplitude. It is
not possible to raise it instantaneously that's why there is an
increasing effect. Now how does the high frequency component
got generated?? Also when it is in the maximum amplitude, how
does it generate the high frequency component in the square
waves?

Is this supposed to mean soething?
What would it take to build a square wave power inverter that
totally eliminate the high frequencies riding in the square wave??

As has been said by several others, put a filter on the output
and you get a sine.
 
C

CWatters

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan Panteltje said:
I am still a bit puzzled to what you are trying to do.

...and why experiment at 110V when say 9V would be a lot safer?
 
O

Old Man

Jan 1, 1970
0
I learnt that square waves for examples produced by power
interver has high frequency components. What's the typical
value of the frequency supposed the source is 110 volts,
60 hertz. Is there no way to remove the high frequency
components? How does it affect the load?

You can get an estimate of the high frequency component
from the rise and fall times of the "square" wave. A low pass
LC filter will reduce the high frequencies. Expensive.

[Old Man]
 
O

Old Man

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tm said:
Low Pass will do it. But you will need more than a 110 volt square wave to
start with if you expect to get a 110 volt sine.

No loss in RMS power.

In principle (R_ series = 0, R__parallel = infinite), an LC
low pass filter is lossless.

[Old Man]
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
emma said:
So the high frequency can be removed. I thought they can't.
How complicated is the LC filter design to remove 100% of
the high frequency component in the square wave?

I think you're still missing the point. A square wave has
"high-frequency components" simply by virtue of being
a square wave. Take those away, and it's not a square
wave any more. Take ALL of them away, except for the
base, or what's called the "fundamental" frequency, and you
have a pure sine wave.

Basically, you get additional components in ANY signal
in which something is changing more rapidly than it would
in the case of a sine wave at that frequency. (That's a terrible
oversimplification, but I'm hoping you'll see the point from it.)
In short, if you see any sort of "wave" with "sharp edges,"
it has high-frequency components.
In pure line Alternating Current (sine wave) from power companies.
Is there any high frequency component in the sine wave or is it
pure 100% 60 Hz AC??

A sine wave is a "pure" signal in the sense that it exists, or
has components, only at one specific frequency. A 60 Hz
sine wave is a "pure 60 Hz tone," in more musical terms.


Bob M.
 
E

emma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
I am still a bit puzzled to what you are trying to do.
Here are my questions:
If you say 'magnetic field' what field are you referring to,
the one from the coil? So then you have a probe, and measure everywhere
near and in the coil the magnetic field, and plot that?
I am sure there are examples of solenoid (single layer coils) with field
lines on the net, search via google:
solenoid field lines
I find many many hits,
here
http://www.bfafairfax.com/~pfeiffer/concphys/EandM/magnetism.html
The field will be symmetrical if you coil is, so 3D = 2D


Well. Let's just say that I need to know all the magnetic field
configurations of all kinds of signals... square waves with high
freq components, triangular waves, sine waves because I want to
build a radio or other circuit powered by induction (without
contact). For example, a radio put near a computer monitor that
can power itself (by induction).

Do you think all oscilloscopes can show even the high frequency
components in the square waves. Do all have the same sensitivity.
What particular feature must I look for in oscilloscopes? Single
or dual trace, etc?
amplifier --- 3 Ohm -- 1 Ohm coil -- ground

Yes I know this configuration.
Resistors behave the same for AC and DC (except from very high frequencies,
many MHz, where they act like an inductor depending upon their construction).

Won't a 1 Watt 2 ohm resistor explode if I use it in conjunction with
a 2 ohm coil in series. I can't predict the voltage produced by the
power amp since the manufacturers are accurate on the power rating.
Suppose a buy a 100 watt power amp... connect the 4 ohm resistor
and coil at the output.. put the function gen at the input...
initiate a 200 hz sine or square wave signal... what if the voltage
produced is say 50 volts and the current is more than the load can
handle... unless the 4 ohm load would only draw the current it needs
irregardless of the voltage. Is this what you mean. But I need high
current to cause high magnetic field in the coil so I can measure
it easily and representative of computer monitor magnetic field
strength (at the sides).
I designed my own.
Now I use an FPGA (programmable gate array) with a fast DA converter.
You calculate the waveform for say 1024 points, upload to the (very
fast) FPGA internal RAM, and then program the FPGA so it outputs at the
right speed.

I don't want to design my own. There are so many power amps there. I'm
bad in soldering and often produced cold soldering points causing
endless hours of debugging.
Or just program the required pulse sequence (in Verilog).
You are limited by the clock speed divided by the number of samples you want.
64 samples per period at 10MHz output would require a 640 MHz clock!
Mine does not go that fast (and and neither the DA).
And 64 samples is not exactly a 'pure' sine wave.
If you just want the sine waves, use any LC signal RF generator.
If you want only frequencies in the audio range, use the PC sound card,
and a good sound editor.

Hmm... yes.. a good idea.. Pc sound card... it can also produce
current that can cause magnetic field in the coil, right?? What's
the typical amperage of the pc sound card, I need very high
amperage so I can easily measure the magnetic field and typical
of monitor magnetic field strength.


I would call a 10MHz power amp a power amplifier with 10MHz bandwidth....

Oh no... if power amp has bandwidth of 10-20 khz. Then I can't
use higher signals in the function gen above 20 khz??

I tried building a power inverter with variable frequency. It's
designed for 60 hz but I replace some parts so I can use frequency
as low as 1 hz to as high as 10 khz. But after some use, my transistors
always gets fried and have to replace them. Know the reason why?

I think the perfect setup for me is to get a variable frequency
sine wave power inverter. Know any commercially available ones
where you can adjust the frequency?? I don't want to construct
one from kits as so many parts need to be soldered and I always
get cold solders.

emma
 
U

Uncle Al

Jan 1, 1970
0
emma wrote:
[snip]
Well. Let's just say that I need to know all the magnetic field
configurations of all kinds of signals... square waves with high
freq components, triangular waves, sine waves because I want to
build a radio or other circuit powered by induction (without
contact). For example, a radio put near a computer monitor that
can power itself (by induction).
[snip]

"Best efforts will not substitute for knowledge," W. Edwards Deming.
 
C

CWatters

Jan 1, 1970
0
I want to build a radio or other circuit powered by induction
(without contact). For example, a radio put near a computer
monitor that can power itself (by induction).

Can I recommend you try placing an ordinary radio next to a computer first.
Try picking up a selection of different stations.
 
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