Grounding a dish

[Kilowatt]

Let me start over again.

My house is 35 years old with a 3 wire grounded electrical system. The dish
is on the opposite side of the house from the service. The service is
around 30 ft, the way the rat crawls, from the dish that is mounted on a
banded bracket made especially for a chimney installation. The only way
from the dish to the service is either over the house or through the attic.
The short side around the house has a carport/driveway blocking burial. The
back of the house is south where the chimney is.

What should have the installer done when he installed the dish to have the
free professional installation that the dish package claims to come with?

The cheap way out for the dish system would be to mount the dish in my front
yard but since I still have CATV as an option this is out of the question.
The dish goes on my chimney or it just goes away.

Here is a link to the instruction manual that comes with the dish. I assume
that the offer from dish makes them required to install the dish to meet the
requirements of the owners manual.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/technology/301/301_User_Guide_115635_part1.pdf

 

[[email protected]]

Let me start over again.

My house is 35 years old with a 3 wire grounded electrical system. The dish
is on the opposite side of the house from the service. The service is
around 30 ft, the way the rat crawls, from the dish that is mounted on a
banded bracket made especially for a chimney installation. The only way
from the dish to the service is either over the house or through the attic.
The short side around the house has a carport/driveway blocking burial. The
back of the house is south where the chimney is.

What should have the installer done when he installed the dish to have the
free professional installation that the dish package claims to come with?

The cheap way out for the dish system would be to mount the dish in my front
yard but since I still have CATV as an option this is out of the question.
The dish goes on my chimney or it just goes away.

Here is a link to the instruction manual that comes with the dish. I assume
that the offer from dish makes them required to install the dish to meet the
requirements of the owners manual.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/technology/301/301_User_Guide_115635_part1.pdf

Assuming it complies with manufacturer's instructions, look
for a #10 (or fatter) copper or #8 (or fatter) aluminum
conductor run either inside or outside the building in as
straight a line as practical from the antenna to the service
panel. If you have that connection, it meets code. If not,
it still might - read on.

Dunno what the installer should have done with respect
to grounding - the manual at the link you posted does not
include page 94 (stops at page 17). According to the table
of contents, grounding information appears on page 94.
The National Electrical Code (NEC) requires that
manufacturer's instructions be followed.

However, I can answer in general. Per the NEC,
the grounding conductor must be connected to the
home's grounding as follows (from 1999 NEC 810-21f)
"1. To the nearest accessible location on the following:
a. The building or structure grounding electrode system
as covered in Section 250-50
b. The grounded interior metal water piping system as
covered in Section 250-104(a)
c. The power service accessible means external to enclosures
as covered in Section 250-92(b)
d. The metallic power service raceway
e. The service equipment enclosure, or
f. The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode
conductor metal enclosures; or"
What follows the word or in the sentence above is for
an ungrounded system. In addition from 810-21 g & h:
(g) "The grounding conductor shall be permitted to be
run either inside or outside the building."
(h) "The grounding conductor shall not be smaller than
No. 10 copper, No. 8 aluminum, or No. 17 copper-clad
steel or bronze."

So the installer has to follow the instructions we can't
see on the link you posted, as well as article 810-21.

He should follow the current code in use in
your community, which could be the 2002 NEC.
That changes b. and c. above to:
b. The grounded interior metal water piping systems,
within 1.52 m (5 ft) from its point of entrance to
the building, as covered in 250.52
c. The power service accessible means external to
the building, as covered in 250.94
as covered in Section 250-92(b)

 

[Kilowatt]

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/technology/301/301_User_Guide_115635_part1.pdfIn an earlier post you said you have a disability and have 15 years
experience as an IBEW member. Is your disability a mental one?
Because your question was answered in previous posts. So what is your
problem? Can you read? Do you have a HS diploma?

I hope you don't mind if I get a second opinion. If you do mind then it is
something you have to deal with.

 

[Kilowatt]

Assuming it complies with manufacturer's instructions, look
for a #10 (or fatter) copper or #8 (or fatter) aluminum
conductor run either inside or outside the building in as
straight a line as practical from the antenna to the service
panel. If you have that connection, it meets code. If not,
it still might - read on.

Dunno what the installer should have done with respect
to grounding - the manual at the link you posted does not
include page 94 (stops at page 17). According to the table
of contents, grounding information appears on page 94.
The National Electrical Code (NEC) requires that
manufacturer's instructions be followed.

However, I can answer in general. Per the NEC,
the grounding conductor must be connected to the
home's grounding as follows (from 1999 NEC 810-21f)
"1. To the nearest accessible location on the following:
a. The building or structure grounding electrode system
as covered in Section 250-50
b. The grounded interior metal water piping system as
covered in Section 250-104(a)
c. The power service accessible means external to enclosures
as covered in Section 250-92(b)
d. The metallic power service raceway
e. The service equipment enclosure, or
f. The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode
conductor metal enclosures; or"
What follows the word or in the sentence above is for
an ungrounded system. In addition from 810-21 g & h:
(g) "The grounding conductor shall be permitted to be
run either inside or outside the building."
(h) "The grounding conductor shall not be smaller than
No. 10 copper, No. 8 aluminum, or No. 17 copper-clad
steel or bronze."

So the installer has to follow the instructions we can't
see on the link you posted, as well as article 810-21.

He should follow the current code in use in
your community, which could be the 2002 NEC.
That changes b. and c. above to:
b. The grounded interior metal water piping systems,
within 1.52 m (5 ft) from its point of entrance to
the building, as covered in 250.52
c. The power service accessible means external to
the building, as covered in 250.94
as covered in Section 250-92(b)

This kind of reminds me of reading the tax code again. How about the
plumber recommending acid for cleaning pipes?

I didn't check for page 94 because all it really says is to install per NEC
810-40. The safety instructions on page vi have more of a visual of what is
required. I really have read this section more than once but I have never
finished it without my eyes glazing over and going into a trance.

I can read all this and I am a Journeyman Electrician. I am convinced that
driving a ground below the dish meets the requirements. I am however
concerned that another connection from the new ground rod back to the
service might be required. I am sure this connection would be better but I
am less convinced that it is necessary.

I do understand that attaching a grounding conductor to the inside of the
house to pipe would make a proper ground but would do very little in case of
lightening. They install satellite dishes every day an I know of no one yet
that has ordered the lightning protection as part of the install package.

I guess my new question should be.......how are they installing these dishes
every day without all this controversy? I know they ain't getting put in
according to NEC 810-40.

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

Let me start over again.

My house is 35 years old with a 3 wire grounded electrical system. The dish
is on the opposite side of the house from the service. The service is
around 30 ft, the way the rat crawls, from the dish that is mounted on a
banded bracket made especially for a chimney installation. The only way
from the dish to the service is either over the house or through the attic.
The short side around the house has a carport/driveway blocking burial. The
back of the house is south where the chimney is.

What should have the installer done when he installed the dish to have the
free professional installation that the dish package claims to come with?

The cheap way out for the dish system would be to mount the dish in my front
yard but since I still have CATV as an option this is out of the question.
The dish goes on my chimney or it just goes away.

Here is a link to the instruction manual that comes with the dish. I assume
that the offer from dish makes them required to install the dish to meet the
requirements of the owners manual.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/technology/301/301_User_Guide_11563
5_part1.pdf

The link you posted does not contain the installation instructions, to be
followed regardless of any advice given here, but if it helps at all:

I don't know what happens in the US (maybe the laws of physics are different
there ;-), but all microwave/radar/satellite dishes I have ever seen are
definitely *not* grounded at the dish itself.

Let me explain why: The dish is typically connected to the receiver using
coaxial cable. The outer braid of this cable is connected to the dish at
one end and the receiver at the other end.

Because of the high frequencies involved, the receiver circuitry is
typically installed in a metal case, earthed to the supply earth via a
standard 3-pin power cable. If you were to earth the dish as well as the
receiver, you could (amongst other things) set up a ground loop in the
coaxial cable which would interfere with the received signal.

Because proper earthing is essential to minimise interference, many
receivers have a separate ground lug on the outside of the receiver case -
and it is this lug which should be connected to a good earth point.

If you are worried about lightning strike (a separate issue) you can
purchase and install in-line surge filters on the coaxial cable near the
receiver end. Some receivers have built-in surge proitection - and
obviously if you earth the dish, this won't work.

I hope this helps,
Cameron

 

[Airy R. Bean]

Zero. Zilch.

It might have travelled quite some distance through ionised air.

 

[Airy R. Bean]

And what would be the mechanism of destruction?

Electrostatic breakdown causing ionisation, perhaps?

 

[Kilowatt]

I have learned to ask the question is a more simple manner.
The instructions that come with the dish say to ground the dish according to
NEC 810-40.
My thought is that dishes are being installed every day.
If I pose no restrictions on the installer and just tell him here is the TV
make it work.

How many installs per year are installed in a professional manner. Since
the instruction booklet even has a section to "remind" the installer to
install the dish according to NEC810-40 I would say this would be a
requirement of the free install.

It don't happen.

FYI. Just because this has been asked more than once doesn't mean it is a
redundant conversation. When you get one yes and one no to the same
question that kind of makes room for a little more discussion.

Want to talk about abortion? Want to settle that today too?

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

Then it has also traveled unimpeded through an ionized
filter. Filters do not stop or block destructive transients -
just like air.

The "surge filters" I am thinking of (yes, that is what they are called)
consist of a series impedance (usually a small inductor) with gas discharge
devices and metal-oxide varistors (MOVs) on either end to shunt any surge to
earth. The other way to protect a dish is to use a tuned 1/4-wave stub,
configured to be transparent at the selected operating frequency whilst
offering a short circuit path to earth for a lightning strike.

You usually need a combination of both types for full protection, and
neither one will protect the cable on a direct hit - only the equipment it
is connected to (yet another reason not to earth the dish).

Have a read of www.novaris.com.au The devices I have used on similar
applications are the CN-90 and CN12-STUB.

Cameron

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

I have learned to ask the question is a more simple manner.
The instructions that come with the dish say to ground the dish according to
NEC 810-40.
My thought is that dishes are being installed every day.
If I pose no restrictions on the installer and just tell him here is the TV
make it work.

How many installs per year are installed in a professional manner. Since
the instruction booklet even has a section to "remind" the installer to
install the dish according to NEC810-40 I would say this would be a
requirement of the free install.

It don't happen.

I don't live in the US and am not familiar with the code you mention, but:

Assuming this code *is not* specific to the installation of dishes on
houses, over here it is common practice to require installers to comply with
relevant Wiring Rules / local Regulations when installing *any* item of
electrical equipment.

The sole reason for doing that is to protect the manufacturer's collective
butt when someone who is not properly trained and doesn't know what they are
doing installs something "in an unsafe manner" and burns the house downs
and/or kills someone.

This has nothing to do with earthing or anything else - the Manufacturer's
Instructions should cover that. If they don't then it is not required. End
of story.

 

[Kilowatt]

according

I don't live in the US and am not familiar with the code you mention, but:

Assuming this code *is not* specific to the installation of dishes on
houses, over here it is common practice to require installers to comply with
relevant Wiring Rules / local Regulations when installing *any* item of
electrical equipment.

The sole reason for doing that is to protect the manufacturer's collective
butt when someone who is not properly trained and doesn't know what they are
doing installs something "in an unsafe manner" and burns the house downs
and/or kills someone.

This has nothing to do with earthing or anything else - the Manufacturer's
Instructions should cover that. If they don't then it is not required. End
of story.

You don't live in the USA and you don't know what the code section says but
you some how feel you have said all that needs to be said. End of story.

Forgive me but that is bullshit.
End of story. PLONK

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

You haven't learned anything!

You don't live in the USA and you don't know what the code section says but
you some how feel you have said all that needs to be said. End of story.

Forgive me but that is bullshit.
End of story. PLONK

Forgive me for trying to assist a self-opinionated yankee troll. End of
story.

Cameron

 

[Steve Alexanderson]

See 810.21F. An isolated ground rod is not one of the allowed methods unless
there is no other grounding means. For good reason too. You don't want to be
electrically in between the two grounds (like when changing out home theater
components) when a fault occurs. "Professional Dish installers" have not
gone through an electrical apprenticeship program, and are satisfied when
the signal strength looks good. Guess they haven't been sued yet.

The metallic water pipe is also no good unless you catch it near its
entrance.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/technology/301/301_User_Guide_11563
5_part1.pdfThis kind of reminds me of reading the tax code again. How about the
plumber recommending acid for cleaning pipes?

I didn't check for page 94 because all it really says is to install per NEC
810-40. The safety instructions on page vi have more of a visual of what is
required. I really have read this section more than once but I have never
finished it without my eyes glazing over and going into a trance.

I can read all this and I am a Journeyman Electrician. I am convinced that
driving a ground below the dish meets the requirements. I am however
concerned that another connection from the new ground rod back to the
service might be required. I am sure this connection would be better but I
am less convinced that it is necessary.

I do understand that attaching a grounding conductor to the inside of the
house to pipe would make a proper ground but would do very little in case of
lightening. They install satellite dishes every day an I know of no one yet
that has ordered the lightning protection as part of the install package.

I guess my new question should be.......how are they installing these dishes
every day without all this controversy? I know they ain't getting put in
according to NEC 810-40.

 

[Louis Bybee]

Lightning has traveled how many miles through non-conductive
air? Now lightning will be stopped by a silly little 'surge
filter' when miles of air could not? Appreciate the technical
fiction of surge filters.

If a surge 'filter' is on cable, then a dish signal is also
filtered - stopped. Obviously, surge 'filters' don't exist.
They are not filters. Transient protection devices are shunt
mode devices - not filters. But the fiction sells protection
devices at excessive price. Too many really don't know what a
surge protector (surge filter) really does.

A filter can be designed to pass at one frequency spectrum, and block or
shunt at others. Perhaps "filter" is a poor terminology choice, but there
are series mode surge suppressors, or transient protectors, available that
filter or absorb damaging voltage excursions and RF from electrical circuits
they are applied to. A simple description of them would be a lc filter in
various forms depending on the supplier.

I too share your distain for the commonly available shunt mode surge
suppressors. I believe in most applications they cause more damage than
good. As you so correctly describe, shunting extreme voltage excursions to
an equipment grounding conductor great distances from the earth ground point
is very undesirable, and frequently results in severe damage. Additionally
as you also point out, having a defective or improperly effected single
point earth ground for a system is particularly hazardous, and results in
the other efforts to protect against lighting/surge activity being for the
most part ineffectual.

I have evaluated a large number of transient or surge protection devices,
some of them being plug connected devices. Connecting these devices to a
high capacity surge generator left most destroyed. ALL of the cheap M.O.V.
plug strip devices I tested were destroyed with little effort, and the
devices plugged into the were also destroyed, or damaged. Some of the series
mode suppressors I tested were capable of withstanding repeated or
continuous high level surges, and in addition protected the devices plugged
into them.

I also agree with your portrayal of lightning/surge protection as a system
wide approach, and have a good laugh when even technically trained people
try to apply protection in a piecemeal manner sometimes without even
verifying/examining the remainder of the system that should be considered as
well.

If you are bored, and want a real laugh read one of the warrantees that come
with many of the ineffectual shunt mode surge suppressors! I doubt that many
have collected on these due to the hoops that have to be jumped through. It
has also been explained to me that it's a common business practice to place
warrantees on surge devices that they know wont provide secure protection,
and depend on the fact that most wont go through the bother jumping through
the hoops necessary to collect, and pay off those that do considering it a
cost of doing business. Kind of like the rebate process on many consumer
items.

Louis

 

[[email protected]]

Kilowatt wrote:

This kind of reminds me of reading the tax code again.

Sorry. I guess you will need to get a professional
who does understand it to look at your situation
and provide on site assistance, since describing it
over the internet isn't working for you.

I can read all this and I am a Journeyman Electrician. I am convinced that
driving a ground below the dish meets the requirements. I am however
concerned that another connection from the new ground rod back to the
service might be required. I am sure this connection would be better but I
am less convinced that it is necessary.

As a Journeyman Electrician, please read article 250-50.
It says, in part:
"If available on the premises at each building or structure
served, each item (a) through (d), and any made electrodes
in accordance with Sections 250-52(c) and (d), shall be
bonded together to form the grounding electrode system."

If tat reads like tax code to you, it nets out that
a proper connection from the new ground rod to the existing
grounding electrode system IS required, per the quoted
article.

I guess my new question should be.......how are they
installing these dishes every day without all this
controversy?

I don't know how they are installing all these dishes.
How "they" are doing it is not at issue. What is at issue
is how to do it right. There is NO controversy -
there are rules that must be followed, per the NEC. At
a minimum, those rules must be followed.

 

[Kilowatt]

See that is the thing. The dish comes with a free <-----------
installation according to NEC 810-40. I agree that NEC rules must be
followed but somehow I (not Dish Network) am supposed to be the one
following them. My guess is that of the thousands of dishes installed that
about 0% of them are actually grounded properly. The advice of getting a
profession electrician and installing $1,000 lighting systems are just not
the right answers.

They are good answers, but don't fall in the free category that Dish had
agreed to when they furnished me the dish.

I am still a little unsure of NEC250 saying systems should be grounded.
Would you define a satellite dish as a system? I still feel (maybe
incorrectly) that a ground rod at the dish doesn't violate 250. I still
don't have one but I have 3 months free cable anyway.

 

[[email protected]]

See that is the thing. The dish comes with a free <-----------

<snip>

No. The "thing" is that we (multiple respondents) and
you are unable to communicate clearly over the internet.

You have not understood answers you have been given in
this medium, or the written code (NEC). It appears that
pursuing it here is pointless. Get a professional on
site to help you.

I apologize for any failure on my part to communicate
clearly.