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Getting matching transformer from telephone

P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Archimedes' Wanker = total Fuckwit "
A 10kV arc from a 2MV lightning strike *COULD* make it all the way into
the handset, and OUT of the perforations in the handset, through the
earpiece or mouthpiece, and hit the user.


** Plus it would jump across the insulation barrier in a 600 ohm line
isolation tranny too !!

FUCKWIT !

This is ONE of the many reasons that isolation elements are
incorporated at VARIOUS locations in the system.


** Surge voltage clamping is not "isolation" - FUCKWIT !!

It isn't your Dad's AC fed two wire drill motor with an
un-phased power cord and metal case. It is, however, in close
(electrical) proximity (potentially) with lightning events, and that is
why arresting elements have been incorporated.


** Surge voltage clamping is not " isolation " - FUCKWIT !!

Most incorporations are overkill,


** Shame one has not killed you then - FUCKHEAD.




....... Phil
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
** Plus it would jump across the insulation barrier in a 600 ohm line
isolation tranny too !!

FUCKWIT !

Except that they ALSO incorporate yet another arrestor at the service
entry. Nice try though... nice sig too... Fits you to a tee.
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 18:45:36 -0800, Archimedes' Lever

:On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:25:48 -0000, "Phil McKerracher"
:
:>
:>It's true that isolation is not important for a well-insulated telephone.
:
:
: A 10kV arc from a 2MV lightning strike *COULD* make it all the way into
:the handset, and OUT of the perforations in the handset, through the
:earpiece or mouthpiece, and hit the user. The microphone and the
:earpiece transducer both use metal cans, making the distance to the user
:a mere 1/4" through air. Not good.

Let's get one thing straight about the old POTS telephone. It has never been
designed to include an "isolation transformer" - where "isolation" means
galvanic isolation....

A plain old POTS telephone is basically sacrosanct in terms of its lack of
requirement to include galvanic isolation to anything. All it has to withstand
is the normal voltage potentials found on the line itself.

However, ANY Customer Equipment (CE) which is powered from or has any connection
to the mains supply, and which interfaces to a telephone line, MUST have
galvanic isolation. The POTS telephone itself DOES NOT.

CE which is connected to the mains supply MUST have an approved mains
transformer (or SMPS) with the required galvanic isolation, and separation of
the telephone line side from the mains powered side using an approved line
interface transformer (600:600 usually). Also the spacing between any conductors
on the mains powered side and the telephone line side of the circuitry must be
at least 6mm (iirc). This includes any opto isolators used to provide signal
interface from the mains side through to the telephone line side. These devices
must have physically wide separation between terminals on the the input and
output sides, and they must a high voltage breakdown rating (eg. 7.5kV). In this
way 3 levels of galvanic isolation are incorporated in mains powered CE to pride
galvanic isolation "from the mains powered side".


:
: This is ONE of the many reasons that isolation elements are
:incorporated at VARIOUS locations in the system. One of which is at the
:CABLE connection to the phone itself, which is why isolation elements can
:be found at these positions. This is a standard element of device design
:where human contact is present, and has nothing to do with it being in a
:plastic case. It isn't your Dad's AC fed two wire drill motor with an
:un-phased power cord and metal case. It is, however, in close
:(electrical) proximity (potentially) with lightning events, and that is
:why arresting elements have been incorporated.

In the old days of magneto, central battery manual and even central battery auto
equipment there was no isolation in the terms you mention above. Yes, they did
have "protection" devices on the telephone line to limit voltage surges and high
current ingress onto the line, but the telephone line today is essentially a
straight connection from the line interface equipment (which these days may have
VDR's and that's it) through to the telephone at the other end. The types of
protection which were once used on the POTS line were; fuses to isolate the line
in the event of a heavy current surge, heat coils to break the circuit if an
aerial line came into contact with a foreign potential which did not produce
sufficient current to rupture the line fuses, and lightning arresters (spark gap
or gas discharge). These devices were provided at both the exchange end (on the
MDF) and the customer end of the line (eg. protector #1). After the 1960's these
items were rapidly disappearing from the telephone environment due to the
majority of line plant being underground where it had almost zero chance of
coming into contact with foreign potentials.

In modern days where most cabling is underground, these devices are dispensed
with - no heat coils (which were only really required for pole mounted telephone
lines), no fuses and no lightning arresters. Even today a 3 stage surge
protector (gas discharge tubes, fusible resistors and VDR's) is only required to
be connected to a telephone line at the either the customer end or the exchange
end where part of the construction is aerial, and/or the local area is prone to
constant lightning activity. Due to the requirement for customer premises
cabling and CE to conform to standards which provide for adequate separation
from foreign voltage sources there should be little chance of a breakdown in
galvanic isolation from these sources to the telephone line.
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
:
:Hello Tony and everyone, I am the OP.
:
:I've been away for a few days and I see there's so many posts that
:now I'm trying to get through them all!
:
:
:MY OBJECTIVE
:
:My aim is to take voice recordings made on various equipment and save
:them to a PC. Some of the voice recordings are of telephone
:conversations made onto tape. I would prefer to have fed the phone
:signal direct to the PC but I get a lot of noise.
:
:I want to preserve as much quality as possible because it will
:probably be necessary for a third party to identify the person
:speaking.
:
:------
:
:Secondly and quite separately from the above....
:
:I didn't raise this problem in my first post. I am getting hum and
:noise when I record using a purpose build connector (Retell model 156
:~ see link below) to a hand-held battery-powered flash-memory
:recorder even when the phone is on hook. I can't see where the hum
:is coming from unless it is on the phone line because there can't be
:a ground loop this time.
:
:http://www.telephonerecorder.co.uk/recording/connectors/156.htm
:
:I do know my landlines don't have all the hum and noise so they must
:be doing something which I want for my recorder! I thought may be a
:transformer to better terminate the Virgin Media phone line might
:help but I am out of my depth here and line termination may be the
:wrong idea altogther.
:
:
:DEFINITIONS
:
:I guess my use of the word "matching" is not a very good electrical
:description. I'm not seeking to match impedances and I get the
:feeling that in electrical engineering, "matching" is often shorthand
:for impedence matching. So apologies for any confusion I have
:caused.
:
:I want to minimise any ground loop to reduce hum and other spuriae so
:perhaps I should have said "isolating" transformer.
:
:Retell have a model (the 157) which connects direct to a PC and I
:believe it is identical to the 156 except it has the additional
:transformer I am asking about.

Get an approved line isolation unit such as this
http://www.dallasdelta.com/pdfs/liu_3kv.pdf

Since your PC is mains powered and it may not have the required isolation
between the mains side and the sound card input you can do your own thing using
an approved 600:600 transformer with 3kV isolation rating to interface the
telephone line to the sound card input.
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ross said:
Since your PC is mains powered and it may not have the required isolation
between the mains side and the sound card input you can do your own thing using
an approved 600:600 transformer with 3kV isolation rating to interface the
telephone line to the sound card input.

He DOES NOT need a 600 ohm transformer since the input impedance of the sound card
is not 600 ohms <sigh> !

It's more likely to be in the tens of kilohms.

What he really wants is something like a 10k:10k 'line bridging' transformer. In
practice, using a '600 ohm' transformer will probably be ok, but being incorrectly
loaded will degrade the sound quality (freq resonse may be peaky etc).

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Floyd L. Davidson said:
Cable type Impedance at 1000 Hz

19NLS 470
19NLP 262
19H50P 675
16B22 806
19H245S 1882

What kind of screwy cables are those ? 1kHz has NOTHING to do with their
characteristic impedance.

Here we use CW1308.

And why the heck do you think ADSL is based around an assumption of
typical 100 ohm charactistic cable / line impedance ?
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/7205.pdf

CRETIN !

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Floyd L. Davidson said:
Except of course when it has loading coils in it, and
then it is something much higher.

Try running ADSL down a line with loading coils ! There's no need for
them anymore. These days you just adjust the line gain.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Floyd L. Davidson said:
Then just exactly how do you think the transmitter got
power in those old phones?

OLD (and no longer used) is all you seem to know about.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
This is true - someone (not sure who, sorry) commented earlier that this
doesn't matter because the speed of light is so high, and that's true for
local calls but not for long distance ones.

Which go via optical fibre or microwave link, NOT cable any more.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Archimedes' Lever said:
A 10kV arc from a 2MV lightning strike *COULD* make it all the way into
the handset, and OUT of the perforations in the handset, through the
earpiece or mouthpiece, and hit the user. The microphone and the
earpiece transducer both use metal cans, making the distance to the user
a mere 1/4" through air. Not good.

This is ONE of the many reasons that isolation elements are
incorporated at VARIOUS locations in the system. One of which is at the
CABLE connection to the phone itself, which is why isolation elements can
be found at these positions.

In the UK the 'master socket' contains the 'spark gap'.
http://www.buzzhost.co.uk/nte5.php

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Franc said:
This [old] document talks about complex impedances (see page 37):
http://web.archive.org/web/20001001070243/http://www.midcom-inc.com/pdf/TN69.pdf

Some classsic audio howlers in there !

High-fidelity Microphone

" Common uses include matching the relatively low 2K ohm output
impedance of a microphone to an amplifier’s much higher line input impedance of 10K
ohms.
Studios commonly use the three terminal “XLR” type of connector which is a balanced
connection
method with a terminal for a center tap. A separate ground terminal, tied to the XLR
connector’s
case is almost always present. The center tap may be used to phantom-feed a small
amount of
current for powering a pre-amp or active “condenser” microphone."

LMAO !

The rest looks useful though.

Graham
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Stuart"
However, regardless of what you know or don't know, this thread was
started by someone who wanted to know whether he could re-use the
transformers in telephones for another purpose so clearly he has some!


** That is entirely false.

What the OP *actually asked* was this:

" If I strip down some landline phones I 've got here, then will there
be a matching transformer in each one? "

Chances are high there are no iron core transformers ( hybrid or other) in
his phones at all - cos they are too modern.

Secondly, his purpose requires a transformer with high voltage safety
isolation from the phone line - which the common 600:600 ohms phone line
types all have and others do not.

Thirdly, his purpose requires a transformer with very high CMRR - cos that
is why he is getting humming noises at the moment when making recordings
with his passive ( ie non-transformer ) adaptor device.

Have you ever done this ??

I can assure you it ain't as simple as you suspect to get a hum free and
distortion free result.

Not the least of the problems is that portable voice recorders have high
sensitivity mic inputs with automatic gain control circuits - which cannot
be defeated by the user. This results in annoying gain pumping and regular
bursts of overload distortion PLUS increasing background noise & hum
whenever there is a pause in the conversation.

The trick is to use just the right amount of resistive divider attenuation
before and after the 1:1 transformer to eliminate this - plus cap couple
the input side to stop pulling the line low.



..... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Stuart"
Eeysore




You mean you didn't know that either?


** The above para is full of technical howlers - as are many other
paras in the article

You have only spotted one of them.

Ok, a typical dynamic microphone is often nearer 150-300 ohms output
impedence and Ribbons can be as low as 50 Ohm but otherwise......


** The author has first confused the typical and recommended *load
impedance* of a mic input with the actual source Z of professional mics.
Then he confuses the line input Z of an amplifier with the input Z of a
transistor preamplifier circuit as found in ( old fashioned) mic inputs.

What he is * really * alluding to is that his company sells 2,000 ohm to
10,000 ohms transformers ( ie 1:5 ) for mic input use.

The stuff about studios using 3 pin XLRs with " centre tap" connections is
an absolute pig's breakfast !!

What the confused author seems to be alluding to is the ( now obsolete)
practice of using the centre tap on the 2,000 ohms winding of his company's
mic input transformers as a source point for 48 volt phantom power.

Fact is - XLRs used for mic inputs ALL have pin 1 as ground & cable
shield and use pins 2 and 3 for mic signal and phantom power.



...... Phil
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
What the OP *actually asked* was this:

" If I strip down some landline phones I 've got here, then will there
be a matching transformer in each one? "


Which, to anyone with even half a brain, obviously means that he wishes
to utilize it as well, you stupid fucktard!
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Stuart"
However, regardless of what you know or don't know, this thread was
started by someone who wanted to know whether he could re-use the
transformers in telephones for another purpose so clearly he has some!


** That is entirely false.

What the OP *actually asked* was this:

" If I strip down some landline phones I 've got here, then will there
be a matching transformer in each one? "

Chances are high there are no iron core transformers ( hybrid or other) in
his phones at all - cos they are too modern.

Secondly, his purpose requires a transformer with high voltage safety
isolation from the phone line - which the common 600:600 ohms phone line
types all have and others do not.

Thirdly, his purpose requires a transformer with very high CMRR - cos that
is why he is getting humming noises at the moment when making recordings
with his passive ( ie non-transformer ) adaptor device.

Have you ever done this ??

I can assure you it ain't as simple as you suspect to get a hum free and
distortion free result.

Not the least of the problems is that portable voice recorders have high
sensitivity mic inputs with automatic gain control circuits - which cannot
be defeated by the user. This results in annoying gain pumping and regular
bursts of overload distortion PLUS increasing background noise & hum
whenever there is a pause in the conversation.

The trick is to use just the right amount of resistive divider attenuation
before and after the 1:1 transformer to eliminate this - plus cap couple
the input side to stop pulling the line low.




..... Phil
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
An 'audio expert' would put a 600 ohm resistor across the secondary
to provide proper loading but no expects you to know that.

Which would doubly load the line silly.

What is required here is what was typically once called a bridging transformer. Audio
doesn't use signal transformers much these days except the tube nuts. Or, come to that,
an active 'balun' with AC coupling to keep the line DC out. 2 caps, 4 resistors, a
single op-amp and maybe even battery powered. Plus some protection diodes for good
measure. 48V is a bit iffy even after a cap.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Floyd L. Davidson said:
Not all telephone cable can run ADSL.

In civilised parts of the world with proper infrastructure it can.

Graham
 
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