Maker Pro
Maker Pro

For Brit Readers : Do you get fed up when a grease monkey is called Engineer?

A

amp is

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's public perception they are up against- the public do think an engineer
(as in engine) is someone on the back of a locomotive with an oil can.
 
J

John

Jan 1, 1970
0
Usual Suspect said:
Thus spake John:


Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

Solicitors and architects I would want to defend/design something that
might
land me in hospital or jail.

Come on, isn't this just a bit silly... There are plenty of professional
engineering societies that one can join so as to favorably impress
potential
clients with your experience and/or knowledge for doing a job for them.

But isn't word-of-mouth advertising the best way to gain clients?

Protectionism is one of last bastions of the incompetent, imo.

In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?

In most countries there are certain educational/training requirements.
 
P

Palindrome

Jan 1, 1970
0
In the UK "real engineers" suffer because the public and industry in general
do not appreciate the level of training and effect we have to put in to get
our qualification.
I worked from the age of 15 in engineering, doing an apprenticeship and
studying for my engineering qualifications.
This route has now all but disappeared and generally there is a lack of real
training opportunities for potential engineers in the UK.
Coupled with this engineer have little status (hence low pay) when compared
with the rest of Europe and the USA.
Few students now consider engineering as a career and this will lead long
term to a decline in UK engineering when compared with say Germany and the
USA where engineering is still considered to be a viable career option.

I fully agree its is what you can do that really matter, but when industry
does not appear to value and reward your effort, why would anyone think of
taking engineering up as a career. I have been a member of a professional
engineering institute in the UK for forty years and have witnessed a steady
decline in engineers status and pay relative to other professions. Engineers
pay has not kept pace with inflation

Unless the UK government make an effort to promote engineering as a
profession, the UK will not have engineers to support an engineering
industry in the future because at the end of the day its the pay that
counts. Having said all that I have had forty eight year of job enjoyment,
twenty seven of these as the technical director of a major engineering
company. For the last seven years I have worked for a major European product
testing and certification group as a senior safety engineer and again have
enjoyed the job, if not the pay. Unfortunately with great regret I would not
encourage anyone to become an engineer currently in the UK, unless changes
are made to the status they will have within industry. They will do better
financially if they went into accountancy and have far less worry and hassle
than as an engineer.
The feeling I have express are common within the engineering industry in the
UK.

The UK has "modern apprenticeships" now, for those going into work after
GCSEs or A levels (ef at 16 or 18 yars old)

http://www.elwa.ac.uk/ElwaWeb/elwa.aspx?pageid=645

IME *Chartered* status is well recognised and understood. Getting that
status generally requires at least a masters degree or equivalent. This
equates with the same sort of qualifications needed to become a lawyer,
doctor, or other professional. Unfortunately, anything less than that is
not as well recognised and valued.

Rates of 800 - 1000 GBP a day for long term contracts are common and not
exactly "low pay".

As with most professions, you have to move between posts to advance your
career - umpteen years in the same job is not a good career choice for
any professional.

I would have no hesitation in encouraging anyone to take up engineering
as a career, within the UK - if they love engineering. In most
engineering disciplines the rate of change is fantastic, so that getting
bored with the job isn't going to happen. Even if given the same major
project again, the solution the second time is almost certainly going to
be radically different to the first. There can be no resting on laurels
and tales of, "In my day, we did it that way". Keeping your knowledge
and skills in date is a great challenge - more so than almost any other
profession. Hence the need to love the subject - it will consume most of
your waking hours. If you want to do the same old thing year after year
then, yes, become an accountant.

The "disadvantages" are many. Three or more years of a *good* first
degree with a lot of math. Anything less than an upper second is not
acceptable, as it won't get entry to a masters degree. One or more years
of masters degree, either as a taught degree or postgraduate research.
But, if you love engineering, those years of learning are hardly a
chore. Getting the first couple of jobs, gaining the experience needed
for CEng.

But after that, the Universe is your Mollusc. What you do can really be,
exactly "Rocket Science"..
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
A Downing Street petition to try and make the word Engineer legally
protected, like Architect or Solicitor.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

It is legally protected (at the state level) in the USA for the purposes
of offering engineering services and designing facilities required to
comply with building and safety codes.

As far as the title goes as an employee, with the exception of certain
code compliance design issues, a company can drag any bum off a park
bench (and I think some do) and give them the title 'engineer'.
 
J

John

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Hovnanian P.E. said:
It is legally protected (at the state level) in the USA for the purposes
of offering engineering services and designing facilities required to
comply with building and safety codes.

As far as the title goes as an employee, with the exception of certain
code compliance design issues, a company can drag any bum off a park
bench (and I think some do) and give them the title 'engineer'.

Paul,

Thanks for the info. Also thanks to Bill and Sue for their succinct comments
and observations.

I'm intrigued to know if in the Sates, if you phone up a company to get the
Heating Boiler/TV Antenna/Refrigerator/Dishwasher/etc/etc repaired if the
company tells you they are going to send round their "Engineer".


John
 
J

John

Jan 1, 1970
0
Probably depends on the state, but where I live one cannot include the
word "engineer" or "engineering" in the company name unless a licensed
professional engineer is a principal.

At least that's more positive than here in the UK where anyone can set up in
business and call themselves "engineer" or their business "engineering".
 
P

Palindrome

Jan 1, 1970
0
Usual said:
Because...? ("Simple as that" rings as a mommalie similar to "because I said
so".)




A customer isn't paying for the title. They're paying for results, regardless
of what the guy/gal is called.




No, if you would again read what you said, you said you want to get paid for
qualifications and titles, not for your accomplishments.




I am all for a creative educated person getting paid what they're worth. We
both know plenty of people (of all titles) who create crap and get paid much
more than their work is worth.

My point is that titles don't mean squat. If the kitchen help can reliably
re-design the accounting network to make it more reliable, I'll call him
whatever he wants to be called and pay him according to his success.


Something like a CEng does mean something. It means that a board of
engineers has convened and gone through the individual's academic and
experience record in great detail. Then summoned the individual to an
hour or more of probing interrogation. It means that any complaint about
the professional competence or ethics of the CEng will be investigated
very thoroughly and will be acted on.

That isn't to say that a "kitchen help" couldn't pass the same scrutiny
- but only that he hasn't. So, as an employer interviewing a potential
employee, you would have to do the equivalent of the board's work.

There are a few highly gifted *engineers* that I know that have no bits
of paper or letters to their name. Often they went to Uni and left bored
in the first year. I'd give any of them a job tomorrow - but only
becuase I know how good they are. They are first-rate engineers who
absolutely deserve the title. But they are very, very few in number.
 
T

Tim Gard

Jan 1, 1970
0
My respect towards an engineer however is the individuals personal
characteristics. Someone who is pompous can still be a certified engineer,
but is probably a bad engineer. Thats because engineers are scientists, and
scientists can only be effective when they have an open mind.

Does lack of an engineering degree negate scientific abilities? I don't
think so, but the lack of a degree could keep one well suited from appling
his skill. Solution. If you have the skill and want to apply it, go to
college!

Tim Gard
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Usual said:
John sez:


In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

Hence the adjective "Field".
But so what? I doubt that whomever is asking for a service visit will care if
he's called a "Service Clown" or Engineer or what. Similarly, when people are
asking for design services, or such, I think they don't really care (or ask)
if their title is "Engineer".

In this case you probably don't want (or need) an engineer. You need a
service technician.

In most (all?) States, the term 'Engineer' is reserved for one qualified
to provide services requiring engineering judgment. There are legal
consequences for providing engineering services, either as an individual
or a corporation, without the proper credentials.

Because of this, companies who provide repair services refrain from (or
are discouraged from) using the unqualified title 'engineer'.
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Usual said:
Because...? ("Simple as that" rings as a mommalie similar to "because I said
so".)

Because the customer wants repair or maintenance services performed. Not
engineering. Trust me, there are some engineers out there that you don't
want trying to fix things.
 
B

b_foote

Jan 1, 1970
0
In usa a "professional engineer" is one licenced by the state, after being
tested to be "responsible for life and property of the public" and any
irresponsibility is closely followed by legal and financial suits, loss of
professional licence, and usually carreer loss... after they take your house
and personal assets...

A professional engineer knows where his area of expertise is, and what he
can competently sign for, and if he's asked to sign off on a project that
includes other areas of expertice, he knows or will find other professional
engineers with expertise in those areas to sign off on those other areas....
A professional engineer, when he signs off on a project takes "professional
responsibility" for the safety of the design to the "fullest extent of
everything he has or ever will own" .. If he signs off on a building, or a
bridge, or an overhead high tension electrical distribution system, or the
design of a carnival ride, an airplane, truck or public conveyance....
"NOBODY IS GOING TO KILLED, DIE, OR BE HARMED DUE TO THE ADEQUACY OR
INADEQUACY OF THE DESIGN"....
It's not just government, or civil, it is "public safety" ....
There may be many various engineers working on a project, under the review
and approval of a Professional Engineer. Most insurance companies won't
insure a company for product liability, with out the review and signature
and stamp of approval by a licenced professional engineer..... Best Regards
 
B

Bud--

Jan 1, 1970
0
Long said:
Quite often, building maintanence personnel are refereed to as "stationary
engineers". Particularly if they are of the HVAC persuasion.

I think the licence to operate the steam boiler in a building is a
"stationary engineer" licence - differentiated from people who operate
boilers that are not stationary and move on tracks.
 
Top