Cutting panels

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,

Don Y wrote:

[...]

The advantage with the simple irrigation controller is that if it croaks
while I am gone I can simply tell my wife where to get a new one and she
can install it. With a problem somewhere in the LAN that would be a real
challenge.

What would she do if the hot water heater developed a leak?
I.e., you *fix* things that you rely on in a timely manner.

She would have a new one installed. With a homebrew LAN that is kind of
impossible.

Note I can always pull the wires off *my* irrigation controller
and attach them to a storebought unit! There's nothing special about
the irrigation valves...

In our case you just buy the same controller and transfer them over
verbatim. Easy. You can even have a pre-programmed unit sitting on the
shelf as a spare.

And you have only the capabilities that non-interconnected devices
have. If that works for you, great! You may find that folks with
disabilities (perhaps yourself, someday) find having to conform to
the requirements imposed by some sighted, nondeaf, mobile, agile,
young designer poses a bit of a challenge.

[I have several friends with partial paralysis from strokes;
Parkinson's; ALS; missing limbs; deaf; blind or legally blind;
etc. The list gets *longer* as I get older! Ever watch someone
with Parkinsonian tremor use a mouse? "Just click on the red
box in the upper left corner..." Or, someone in a wheelchair
try to navigate to the garage to close the door before retiring?
Or someone blind wondering if they've turned off the lights
in the house before retiring? Along with ensuring the stovetop
is off?]

That would be the point where I'd really start simplifying my life,
getting a smaller house, maybe even consider a 55+ community. But as
long as one spouse is ok it may not be an issue, as long as it doesn't
cause undue overload stress level in the healthier spouse.

Unfortunately, many folks don't have a choice. Or, don't want to
give up their independence -- "yet". Our ALS friend lives by herself.
Despite the fact that she can no longer *speak*. We have friends
where one spouse is disabled -- and the other barely *able* (i.e.,
old). Try telling them "you should move into..." and its like
talking to a brick wall!

[I wonder what I will be like when/if that time comes?]

We never know. But it is beneficial to prepare oneself. Because of our
volunteer activities we know most of the places in our area. It's good
to mentally prepare. Of course that's no guarantee, I know people who in
their younger years were perfectly willing to go into assisted living
some day and then when the time really came fought it tooth and nail.

If, instead, they can avail themselves of appliances and other
living means that allow them to continue to live the lifestyle
they *choose*... <shrug>

E.g., when our ALS friend is in bed, she's there until the caregiver
gets her up in the morning! If someone comes to the front door,
she can't (physically) let them in. If she left the TV on in the
living room, it's going to *stay* on all night. If she worries
that she *might* not have turned off the stove, she won't know
until someone checks it in the morning (unless the house catches
fire before then!)

None of these things are difficult to provide. They just *haven't*
been.

That's the problem. And will be for a long time to come.

If appealing to the toy desire of normal users lets quantities
increase so they become affordable for the folks who *need*
them (instead of just WANTING them)...


Happens all the time! Early adopters always pay through the nose!
I'm hoping that circumventing the need for "big players" will let
"tinkerers" create a workable system -- even if a big player comes
in after the fact and tries to hijack the idea. (who cares as long
as the devices are available!)

It only tends to happen for gizmos in a "must have" category. HA isn't
cool enough, therefore it has to be reasonably price to even create a
market.

One problem with time-of-use tariffs has been the relative inability
of consumers to adjust their energy loads with any level of
convenience. I.e., little more than "don't turn on the lights
during the day!".

The real reason is that the utilities have screwed up the smart grid.
The user has no feedback what he is currently using, no immediate
feedback about market pricing, nada, zilch.

But there is nothing for the user to *do* with that information!
How does he *know* what loads to shed to reap a given level of reward?
Does he even know *where* his power is being consumed? Or, when?
If he could look at a wall display and see it showing KW/Hr (i.e.,
"rate"), how could he determine *what* was contributing to that
figure? Run around turning things on and off and then run back to
see what the display indicates?

This is exactly what home automation is for. Say someone starts loading
the dryer. The computer in there senses the door being opened, then
responds "Hey, a kWh is 45c right now, sure you want to do this?
Yesterday it was down to 16c by 7:30pm". Or it could just suggest to
impulse-tumble the load until the prices drop, then step on it and
notify you on the display panels. You can hit [YES] or [NO].

Its easier than that! You do the things that automation can't
(i.e. load the washer). Let the automation decide when to actually
*wash* the clothes. Let it notify you when you are needed to
move the clothes into the dryer, etc.

But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
happen. Consequently it's not happening.

Of course, there are countless "rules" as to what it should do
and when. E.g., growing up, the hot water heater was undersized
(oil fired). So, you didn't take a shower when someone was
doing laundry!

With automation, you can turn that on its head to favor the user
over the "appliance" -- *stop* the laundry cycle when someone
wants to use the shower (or, just delay when you would start the
cycle if you know folks will be taking showers, soon)

Well, yeah, those things we tend to figure out the old-fashioned way by
turning stuff on and off. For example, we set the sprinklers to come on
and be through before we take our morning showers.

You can save energy and gain convenience with automation. So,
use that as the "draw" and hope that others (utilities, regulators,
etc.) get on the bandwagon after-the-fact.

Not going to work. There is no consumer payback without intelligent TOU
tariffs. So consumers won't buy.

The problem has been that automation involves too many DIFFERENT
aspects of a home (we have not talked about businesses!). So,
its unlikely that manufacturer A will have its hands in LOTS of
these areas in order to pitch a unified, consistent framework
for "devices".

I.e., the solution has to come from outside those industries.
Put something in place. *Hope* people embrace it ("Hey, it
exists, its free, and its better than nothing!") and then
hope vendors follow.

It requires the utilities or regulators to get it. And they don't, yet.

See some of my URLs. ...

That's mostly alarm systems. Not very useful for real HA.

... What's sorely missing is the smarts (algorithms)
to tie things together. "Control your home from your smartphone!"
"OK, besides being 1970 technology, what does that *do* for me that
I can't do WITHOUT the smartphone??" (i.e., why can't *you* decide
when to lower the thermostat?)

First there needs to be the hardware, the devices that actually control
stuff. They ain't there.

They want it all. They forget that *I* have to gain something
before I am willing to GIVE something!

E.g., we have looked into PV solar (too expensive given our ages).
Going that route, you "sell back" surplus electricity (at a reduced
price!) to the utility. ...

And therein lies the problem. Why is it that when we strain ourselves to
be good and feed 8kW back at times of super-high need that the spot
market guys get 30-40c/kWh and we get 4c? That's wrong, and is the
reason why we have no solar at all. Now it's too late, on account of a
new metal roof with a batten system.

... Heck, why have *any* surplus? Charge
batteries when you have power to spare. Use the batteries to
power *some* of your load in the off hours (instead of buying back
the electricity that you just sold the utility a few hours ago
AT A HIGHER PRICE -- "distribution costs")

Super expensive, not going to be economical. Friends had that in Mexico
and only because there was no electricity. You don't want to know what a
fully burdended kWh cost them.

I don't see it that way. For businesses, there is a value decision
involved. For consumers, I still think there is a lot of "toy"
factor. "Have you seen the Jones' house? It practically wipes
your ass for you!"

For you and me, maybe (less so for me, I want value in it). But the vast
majority will not buy unless there is some payback.

My other half has one "for emergencies". $100/year (I believe there
are cheaper alternatives but she needed something that had widespread
coverage as she was making annual drives up through some of the
lesser populated/developed portions of the state, into Utah, etc.
so that restricted her choices)

She has *once* used it for an emergency. The other times have been
"I'm at Trader Joe's. Do you want anything?"

<shrug> At $100, it's a bargain for piece of mind... (also pays
for itself when she *is* on those extended trips and would have to
resort to a payphone or motel phone to call home)

When you get up there in age I'd consider getting one for yourself as
well. All it takes is going on a jog and suddenly you feel the ticker
skipping some beats.

EVERYONE wants to be in the services business! I suspect we will
see "subsidized appliances" in the future -- once they figure out
how to get those appliances to snitch on your usage patterns!
Then, sell that information to vendors who can pitch items to
you *in* your home!

(Like: "Free phone with 2 year contract...")

Smart phones have the coolness factor. "Mine has a screen 0.500" bigger
than yours" or "Mine can do LTE". HA (mostly) doesn't have this
coolness, it needs to create value on its own merits.

But it isn't! Folks are willing to pay for security monitoring
services (surveillance), "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up",
etc. It's a wonder anyone has disposable income given all the
vendors trying to nickel and dime them to death! :<

They only do that if they really have no other choice. Or if the kids
force them to and/or pay the bills for it. We are talking home
automation though.

(Most "services" are articifial. Why do I need to pay someone
$2/day so I can control SOME of my appliances from my iPhone?
Why can't my phone contact my home directly -- instead of
going THROUGH your "service")

Exactly. I don't want to be tied to someone's service for this. Because
you know how it goes:

"We have some wonderful news! We have added these valuable features ...
yada, yada, yada ..."

None of which you really need, or let alone asked for. In the fine print
it says "Best of all, you get all this for a low new price of
$2.79/day". Seriously, I had exactly such an attempt by my web hoster
recently. I put an immediate stopperoo on that but I bet 90+ percent of
customers didn't and now wonder why their bill shot up.

The same sort of people who already spend $160/month! Companies
don't care about you or me. There are plenty of other folks eager
to throw money at them!

I doubt they would spend an additional $34/mo for that. For umpteen
additional sports channels, sure. For HA? Nope.

They've embraced Arduino in the hope that folks will design
Arduino based gizmos... that they can eventually talk to.

That's nerd stuff, will never reach the masses.

Google wants to *live* in your pants (pocket)!

Not in mine. I don't even use them as a search engine.

Sure. My point was there are folks who are willing to pay that
price for a flimsy little connector. What are they willing to
pay for the rest of the enchilada?

Not much. They will prefer to spend that money on a fun park trip,
dinner, movies, a humongous gas barbecue they use exactly once, or some
other cool stuff they can brag about in front of their friends.

Bummer. Shit Happens.

Yeah, pain all day, dentist on vacation for a week. But my wife made an
excellent Zucchini soup. Someties us guys forget how much work that is,
a lot more than if I had barbecued the meat, sausages, bread and jalapenos.

 

[Don Y]

Hi,

Just a summary of my results, to date:

With the veneer approach, you could be *really* crude in how well you
cut the slots. And, "filing" would only be necessary to remove burrs,
etc.

Yes, I like this idea! It's something that others could easily
reproduce and get "good" results -- all while avoiding the need
to locate some "service" to do the work for you!

I tried using "card stock" printed in a Phaser (solid ink, very
opaque/glossy results), laminated, then cut (for the "slots"
for the connectors). Visually very good (though the lamination
alters the finish perceptibly). And, easy to get a precise
fit to the dimensions of the panel and openings.

But, the card stock "frays" along the edges that have been cut
for the connector openings. Over time, the appearance will degrade
as these edges see most of the (ab)use that the panel experiences
(as cables are plugged/unplugged).

I then tried printing the imagery and *pre*cutting the openings
before lamination. This allows the plastic laminate to be in place
as the edge of the opening instead of the "compressed fiber"
card stock. Once laminated, the openings are cut through the
lamination.

The problem with this approach is you need to leave a margin of
plastic to "self-adhere" causing the resulting opening to be
smaller than desired. I.e., you have to cut the opening in the
card stock to be *larger* than necessary so you leave room for
the lamination to come together *inside* that opening. This
means your "overlay" has a transparent ring around each opening
cut through it. (and, means the legends are that much further
from the actual openings!) The cheap remedy is to paint the
backside of the lamination with a solid color that mimics the
basic color of the printed overlay (e.g., I printed a black
overlay and then used a black marker pen to color the clear
plastic laminate in this area to be equally black. This would
obviously have varying degrees of success with other colors...


I then tried using heavy "photo paper" (I have a large selection of
papers, here). Again, printing the imagery in the Phaser (so
I didn't change too many variables in one step), laminating and
then cutting windows. (i.e., just like the first attempt but
using different "paper").

With a bit of double-sided celo tape to adhere it to the
metal panel, this seems like it will do the trick. Sure,
it won't stand up to lots of abuse but this isn't the
sort of thing that will *see* lots of abuse. Wire it
and forget it.

Other ideas I might explore are printing on thin plastic
(though I'll see if I can find a service bureau willing to do it!);
cutting "tabs" on the inside of the slots in the laminate
instead of cutting clean openings (so that those tabs could
then be folded normal to the page to cling to the inside
edge of the panel hole -- the small gap between the metal
plate and the connectors protruding through it).

I may also try a sheet of wood veneer as this would be the utmost
in "swank".

Currently, I am exploring a choice for appropriate graphics to
use as icons. I think if the panel had been mounted at eye
level (even if you were squatting at the time), the icons
wouldn't be as critical. But, located inches above the floor
means there is a lot more reliance on overall shape and (ick!)
color (white snowman for "freezer", orange sun for "weather",
red thermometer for "temperature", etc.). Maybe I can coerce
some of my artist friends to lend a hand (though small and
stylized is probably not something they are accustomed to dealing
with!)

--don

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

I see you are still among the living -- much to your displeasure! :>

She would have a new one installed. With a homebrew LAN that is kind of
impossible.

But if this was a commercial product, she'd be able to buy a replacement
(or have a cold spare) just as easily as you currently can!

Unfortunately, many folks don't have a choice. Or, don't want to
give up their independence -- "yet". Our ALS friend lives by herself.
Despite the fact that she can no longer *speak*. We have friends
where one spouse is disabled -- and the other barely *able* (i.e.,
old). Try telling them "you should move into..." and its like
talking to a brick wall!

[I wonder what I will be like when/if that time comes?]

We never know. But it is beneficial to prepare oneself. Because of our

Yup. When our friend was Dx'ed with ALS, I ventured that she
should start planning her exit strategy while she was still
able to act on it. The idea wasn't well received at the time
(of course). Now, she is no longer capable of undertaking
that sort of preparation -- let alone follow-through! So, if
she gets to a point where she wants that sort of side exit,
she will have to impose on others (with legal and moral
implications!)

volunteer activities we know most of the places in our area. It's good
to mentally prepare. Of course that's no guarantee, I know people who in
their younger years were perfectly willing to go into assisted living
some day and then when the time really came fought it tooth and nail.

It only tends to happen for gizmos in a "must have" category. HA isn't
cool enough, therefore it has to be reasonably price to even create a
market.

I dunno. Friends/neighbors to whom I've shown prototypes of some
of my features (i.e., crude implementations) are blown away by
the "magic". E.g., having music follow me through the house
so I don't have to turn off the "stereo" in this room before I
move into the next room... then, turn that one on (and find the
same source material in exactly the same point -- e.g., as
if the CD in this player was perfectly synchronized to the CD
in the player I just turned off). I imagine the impact when I
can sort out the video delivery will be equally impressive!

But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
happen. Consequently it's not happening.

Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes.
With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability
of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they
could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs
(air conditioning and heating)

[forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to
"tiny-fy" them :< ]

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_333-352-TZEMT400BB32MAA_0__?productId=3382198&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_370567-74493-
YTH8320ZW1007_0__?productId=3501124&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_388565-69305-CT-101-L_0__?productId=3735317&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_171309-74493-
RTH8580WF1007_0__?productId=3850715&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_171234-74493-
RTH6580WF1001_0__?productId=3850713&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_486110-74493-
RTH9580WF1005_0__?productId=4746117&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

All claim to be "in stock".

Here are remote control "modules", (modern day X-10?) etc.:

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_380-352-RP200R_4294857038__?productId=3067237&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1>

<http://www.lowes.com
/pd_197357-1353-45603_4294857038__?productId=3167775&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com
/pd_193115-1353-45602_4294857038__?productId=3167765&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
facetInfo=>

If you are willing to shop at places other than just Lowes:

Here are 47 wall switches that you can talk to remotely:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/1QV
/23V/nav.aspx>

Here are 8 "wall outlets":

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
/Receptacles/Wire_in_Outlet_Modules/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/2ML/1Qb/23V
/nav.aspx>

And 32 "security:" products (door locks, thermostats, sensors):

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Security/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/H/23V/nav.aspx>

Of course, all of those were Z-Wave comms technology. If you
prefer to use ZigBee, here are 17 products that try to manage
power to some degree:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Zigbee/_/2qD/nav.aspx>

If you're more of a nostalgia buff, there are still X10 products:

26 wall switches:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens
/X10_Compatible/_/1QV/23X/nav.aspx>

10 "wall wart" modules:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Plug_in_Screw_In_Modules/X10_Compatible
/_/1Qd/23X/nav.aspx>

LG claims a line of WiFi enabled appliances (washer/dryer.fridge/oven):

<http://www.lg.com/global/press-release/article/lg-unveils-total-
home-appliance-solution-empowering-consumers-to-smartly-manage-their-
homes.jsp>

<http://www.lgnewsroom.com/ces2012/view.php?product_code=95&
product_type=95&post_index=1828>

Sure, they are pricey. But, they represent a verified commitment
to a technology. Not like Detroit's "concept cars" that never
CLAIM to be producible but merely intended to generate "buzz"!

Well, yeah, those things we tend to figure out the old-fashioned way by
turning stuff on and off. For example, we set the sprinklers to come on
and be through before we take our morning showers.

We have to water at different times during the day. E.g., the
roses won't tolerate missing an afternoon soak (in addition
to the wee-hours soak). And, when its windy, all bets are off!

I'd much prefer a system that can optimize when it *should* water
conditioned by monitoring our activities (i.e., presumably, our
needs are more important -- why should we have to change our
schedules to accommodate plants?)

Not going to work. There is no consumer payback without intelligent TOU
tariffs. So consumers won't buy.

There are places where utilities *have* been smart, apparently,
in interacting with their consumers. E.g., SWMBO's parents
had a load shedding agreement with their provider ("cooperative")
that worked well for them.

But, most utilities are still in the greedy phase. Hoping to get
something for nothing. To actually use ToU to get *more* money
from their customers.

[When offered a ToU tariff, here, I carefully monitored out
consumption and realized we would be screwed big time. And,
we have very malleable schedules so we *could* shift a lot
of the load! Other folks would have discovered -- after the
fact -- that they could never conveniently shift enough
load to break even... let alone SAVE money! (Why else would
you want to switch to a different tariff?!]

That's mostly alarm systems. Not very useful for real HA.

Check again. Along with the other devices I've described, here.
E.g., a refrigerator vendor knows what his appliance consumes.
And, can know what it as consumed *recently*.

Similarly, plugging a 100W lamp into a "lamp module" implicitly
tells you that every moment it is on consumes 100W.

(The problem is, you don't have anything with brains to
track this and do something with it!)

First there needs to be the hardware, the devices that actually control
stuff. They ain't there.

See the 100+ devices I cited above.

And therein lies the problem. Why is it that when we strain ourselves to
be good and feed 8kW back at times of super-high need that the spot
market guys get 30-40c/kWh and we get 4c? That's wrong, and is the
reason why we have no solar at all. Now it's too late, on account of a
new metal roof with a batten system.

Exactly.

Here, solar has taken a good foothold. In addition to all the
"solar pool heaters" (very old technology), I'm sure there are
at least 5000 sq ft of PV's within a block of our house.
(and those are all residential installs).

If you look at the commercial establishments, the deployment
of solar has been astonishing! E.g., parking lot "carports"
(areas where dozens of cars can park under a standalone "roof")
with 1000sq ft or more of PVs.

There's a little house down the road from here that has the
entire roof surface covered in PVs!

We entertained solar *water* heater but at $5K+ it was a joke!
Ditto with on-demand.

"And, when the controller board craps out, the *plumber* is
going to repair it? Oh, it's going to be a $100 service call
and a board swap. So, several hundred dollars -- instead of
just purchasing a new *gas/electric* heater every 15 years??"

Super expensive, not going to be economical. Friends had that in Mexico
and only because there was no electricity. You don't want to know what a
fully burdended kWh cost them.

Of course. But you could pump water uphill, etc. And, if you
invested in a cooperative effort in the neighborhood, you could
pool a fair bit of "power" -- instead of giving it away (and
buying it back a few hours later).

E.g., I have a small PV panel that I use to keep a small bank
of car batteries topped off in the garage. They run a pump
that I use to harvest rainwater (silly to pay for electricity
to conserve water!). And, I have a 1500VA inverter nearby so
I have a decent source of power (lighting, etc.) in the event of
a prolonged outage (without having to buy more expensive
batteries suitable for use indoors!)

When you get up there in age I'd consider getting one for yourself as
well. All it takes is going on a jog and suddenly you feel the ticker
skipping some beats.

I have a (very) long range cordless phone that I carry while
walking. E.g., I can reach the house (as an intercom) from
almost anywhere in the neighborhood (furthest corner is
about half a mile). Once I get an antenna on the roof
(instead of in the closet!), I imagine there will be no
dead spots.

I doubt they would spend an additional $34/mo for that. For umpteen
additional sports channels, sure. For HA? Nope.

People here already spend that much for "security monitoring"
services. E.g., a bunch of PIr's and a panic button wired to
a phone line.

Yeah, pain all day, dentist on vacation for a week. But my wife made an
excellent Zucchini soup. Someties us guys forget how much work that is,
a lot more than if I had barbecued the meat, sausages, bread and jalapenos.

Jinx. SWMBO now has a problem. I will *thank* her for you! :>

(Pour yourself a cold one and try to forget about it!)

--don

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,

I see you are still among the living -- much to your displeasure! :>

Drowsy from the pain pills for the tooth ache:-(

But if this was a commercial product, she'd be able to buy a replacement
(or have a cold spare) just as easily as you currently can!

But all your IP "peel-off" boxes are not available commercially.
Technically I see no major problems but logistically I do.

Unfortunately, many folks don't have a choice. Or, don't want to
give up their independence -- "yet". Our ALS friend lives by herself.
Despite the fact that she can no longer *speak*. We have friends
where one spouse is disabled -- and the other barely *able* (i.e.,
old). Try telling them "you should move into..." and its like
talking to a brick wall!

[I wonder what I will be like when/if that time comes?]

We never know. But it is beneficial to prepare oneself. Because of our

Yup. When our friend was Dx'ed with ALS, I ventured that she
should start planning her exit strategy while she was still
able to act on it. The idea wasn't well received at the time
(of course). Now, she is no longer capable of undertaking
that sort of preparation -- let alone follow-through! So, if
she gets to a point where she wants that sort of side exit,
she will have to impose on others (with legal and moral
implications!)

She should at least execute a medical directive. That is what friends
with a similar predicament did a long time ago.

[...]

I dunno. Friends/neighbors to whom I've shown prototypes of some
of my features (i.e., crude implementations) are blown away by
the "magic". E.g., having music follow me through the house
so I don't have to turn off the "stereo" in this room before I
move into the next room... then, turn that one on (and find the
same source material in exactly the same point -- e.g., as
if the CD in this player was perfectly synchronized to the CD
in the player I just turned off). I imagine the impact when I
can sort out the video delivery will be equally impressive!

Sure, but ask them what they'd be willing to fork over in Dollars for
this. Because they will put this in relation to the novelty factor other
stuff brings, and to what they paid there. Like that $200 smart phone
(not realizing that they pay the other $300 via the 2-year plan).

But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
happen. Consequently it's not happening.

Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes.
With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability
of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they
could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs
(air conditioning and heating)

[forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to
"tiny-fy" them :< ]

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

250 bucks for a thermostat? Are they crazy?

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_333-352-TZEMT400BB32MAA_0__?productId=3382198&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

$150 is high, plus looks like proprietary network. Not for me.

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_370567-74493-
YTH8320ZW1007_0__?productId=3501124&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

$160 plus you need to buy a Z-wave controller.

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_388565-69305-CT-101-L_0__?productId=3735317&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

Must buy the IRIS system and that offer next to nothing in real home
automation:

http://www.lowes.com/cd_Starter+Kits_663889394_#1-Comparison

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_171309-74493-
RTH8580WF1007_0__?productId=3850715&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_171234-74493-
RTH6580WF1001_0__?productId=3850713&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_486110-74493-
RTH9580WF1005_0__?productId=4746117&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

All claim to be "in stock".

Yeah, but this stuff does not cut it. It is not true home automation.

Here are remote control "modules", (modern day X-10?) etc.:

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_380-352-RP200R_4294857038__?productId=3067237&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1>

$35 is high but could be (somewhat) ok. But Z-wave has serious range
issues. It only works if you buy enough stuff or use repeaters. Then
under specs ... "UL Safety Listing .. No" -> Oops.

<http://www.lowes.com
/pd_197357-1353-45603_4294857038__?productId=3167775&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
facetInfo=>

$50 is too much.

<http://www.lowes.com
/pd_193115-1353-45602_4294857038__?productId=3167765&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
pl=1&currentURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
facetInfo=>

Quote "This module is for use with standard incandescent lighting, 300W
maximum load" ... uhm, whom are they trying to fool? That is so last
century, sounds like gussied-up X-10. Except that my X-10 modules have
cost less than 20%. The fact that they can only operate incandescents is
one of the major shortcomings of that system. Edison bulbs are mega-out
these days.

If you are willing to shop at places other than just Lowes:

Here are 47 wall switches that you can talk to remotely:

Well, yeah, at boutique prices. That is the problem (plus to some extent
the Z-wave range).

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/1QV
/23V/nav.aspx>

Here are 8 "wall outlets":

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
/Receptacles/Wire_in_Outlet_Modules/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/2ML/1Qb/23V
/nav.aspx>

And 32 "security:" products (door locks, thermostats, sensors):

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Security/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/H/23V/nav.aspx>

Of course, all of those were Z-Wave comms technology. If you
prefer to use ZigBee, here are 17 products that try to manage
power to some degree:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Zigbee/_/2qD/nav.aspx>

If you're more of a nostalgia buff, there are still X10 products:

26 wall switches:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens
/X10_Compatible/_/1QV/23X/nav.aspx>

10 "wall wart" modules:

<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Plug_in_Screw_In_Modules/X10_Compatible
/_/1Qd/23X/nav.aspx>

We have lots of X-10. It's not reliable and mostly of poor quality.

LG claims a line of WiFi enabled appliances (washer/dryer.fridge/oven):

<http://www.lg.com/global/press-release/article/lg-unveils-total-
home-appliance-solution-empowering-consumers-to-smartly-manage-their-
homes.jsp>

<http://www.lgnewsroom.com/ces2012/view.php?product_code=95&
product_type=95&post_index=1828>

Sure, they are pricey. But, they represent a verified commitment
to a technology. Not like Detroit's "concept cars" that never
CLAIM to be producible but merely intended to generate "buzz"!

I have to disagree with you on that. HA to me is something totally
different. Not super-expensive gear where I can beam a recipe to the
oven but gear where I can control outdoor lights, media, coffee makers,
mood lighting, has sensors and so on.

We have to water at different times during the day. E.g., the
roses won't tolerate missing an afternoon soak (in addition
to the wee-hours soak). And, when its windy, all bets are off!

I'd much prefer a system that can optimize when it *should* water
conditioned by monitoring our activities (i.e., presumably, our
needs are more important -- why should we have to change our
schedules to accommodate plants?)

That requires real HA, not just the gizmos. The system would need to
learn your habits. The sensors are fairly easy but, as usual,
unobtanium. For example, a water meter link or flow sensor can provide
enough information to figure out "Oh, someone is taking a shower".

There are places where utilities *have* been smart, apparently,
in interacting with their consumers. E.g., SWMBO's parents
had a load shedding agreement with their provider ("cooperative")
that worked well for them.

But, most utilities are still in the greedy phase. Hoping to get
something for nothing. To actually use ToU to get *more* money
from their customers.

Customers like us see right through that.

[When offered a ToU tariff, here, I carefully monitored out
consumption and realized we would be screwed big time. And,
we have very malleable schedules so we *could* shift a lot
of the load! Other folks would have discovered -- after the
fact -- that they could never conveniently shift enough
load to break even... let alone SAVE money! (Why else would
you want to switch to a different tariff?!]

Exactamente. Same here.

Check again. Along with the other devices I've described, here.
E.g., a refrigerator vendor knows what his appliance consumes.
And, can know what it as consumed *recently*.

Similarly, plugging a 100W lamp into a "lamp module" implicitly
tells you that every moment it is on consumes 100W.

That's not it. One must monitor the whole house and deduce from
consumption patterns what is what. Like what does it look like when
someone takes a shower? What does it look like if a pizza is baked in
the oven? Those are heavy-hitters in consumption.

(The problem is, you don't have anything with brains to
track this and do something with it!)

That's what real HA would do. It has brains. For example, our X10 has a
uC plus radio sticking in a central locatin. But it is totally
underpowered and not smart enough.

See the 100+ devices I cited above.

To be honest, they do not impress me. Some are same old same old, others
are over-priced.

Exactly.

Here, solar has taken a good foothold. In addition to all the
"solar pool heaters" (very old technology), I'm sure there are
at least 5000 sq ft of PV's within a block of our house.
(and those are all residential installs).

Not sure where you live. Last time I flew to San Diego (few weeks ago) I
scanned the neighborhoods from above. I was very surprised how little
there was in solar installations. There were whole blocks where nobody
had solar.

If you look at the commercial establishments, the deployment
of solar has been astonishing! E.g., parking lot "carports"
(areas where dozens of cars can park under a standalone "roof")
with 1000sq ft or more of PVs.

Not in San Diego, where after shutting down the San Onofre plant they'd
really need it.

There's a little house down the road from here that has the
entire roof surface covered in PVs!

We entertained solar *water* heater but at $5K+ it was a joke!
Ditto with on-demand.

"And, when the controller board craps out, the *plumber* is
going to repair it? Oh, it's going to be a $100 service call
and a board swap. So, several hundred dollars -- instead of
just purchasing a new *gas/electric* heater every 15 years??"

Yup. If the electronics goes bad they'll likely fleece you unless you
can find out with a sharp eye that it's a particular electrolytic that
went bad. Or in my recent case an inadequately cooled linear regulator
went phut.

Of course. But you could pump water uphill, etc. And, if you
invested in a cooperative effort in the neighborhood, you could
pool a fair bit of "power" -- instead of giving it away (and
buying it back a few hours later).

They'd have to build a hill first

E.g., I have a small PV panel that I use to keep a small bank
of car batteries topped off in the garage. They run a pump
that I use to harvest rainwater (silly to pay for electricity
to conserve water!). And, I have a 1500VA inverter nearby so
I have a decent source of power (lighting, etc.) in the event of
a prolonged outage (without having to buy more expensive
batteries suitable for use indoors!)

I thought about that. Harborfreight's 45W panel was down to $150 last
time I looked. Still a bit high.

[...]

People here already spend that much for "security monitoring"
services. E.g., a bunch of PIr's and a panic button wired to
a phone line.

If HA gets tacked on then the monthly charge will be upped, big time.
Out here it's cheaper, unless you have them install an elaborate alarm
system which must be amortized.

Jinx. SWMBO now has a problem. I will *thank* her for you! :>

(Pour yourself a cold one and try to forget about it!)

Oh yeah, we sure will

 

[Don Y]

Hi Joerg,

Drowsy from the pain pills for the tooth ache:-(

Thankfully, I don't need pain relief often. E.g., a bottle of
Advil will last us *years*!

But, apparently, different types of pain are susceptible to different
types of pain remedies. E.g., certain things don't work on teeth...

But all your IP "peel-off" boxes are not available commercially.
Technically I see no major problems but logistically I do.

Yes, but someone has to start the process! :> It sure isn't
going to be a PLUMBER who does it!

She should at least execute a medical directive. That is what friends
with a similar predicament did a long time ago.

EVERYONE should have health care power of attorney, etc. Not
just people who seem *likely* to die. And, an "advocate"
who will aggressively enforce teh terms of those directives.

[we know folks who've had DNR's ignored, "conveniently"]

Sure, but ask them what they'd be willing to fork over in Dollars for
this. Because they will put this in relation to the novelty factor other
stuff brings, and to what they paid there. Like that $200 smart phone
(not realizing that they pay the other $300 via the 2-year plan).

That;s obviously how vendors want to pitch their "systems"...
$X/month (and *they* "eat" the cost of the kit... hence wanting
it to be dirt cheap to produce!)

But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
happen. Consequently it's not happening.

Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes.
With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability
of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they
could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs
(air conditioning and heating)

[forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to
"tiny-fy" them :< ]

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

250 bucks for a thermostat? Are they crazy?

[snip rest of examples as we agree on the insanity of the prices, etc.]

The "Nest" device is actually pretty sexxy. But, yes, $250 is
ridiculous. Even some of the cheaper units are $150, etc.

They are stuck in that they need to make the device "unique"
(e.g., it has a really slick user interface) so it *looks*
like it is worth that money. They have much smaller quantities
than generic thermostats. And *way* higher costs! (since a
thermostat is a no-brainer to design electromechanically...
even electronically!)

They also have a fair bit of real estate on the store floor
(large display -- ever wonder why breakfast cereal is as
expensive as STEAK??)

Curiously, there is actually an *advantage* to making the
price higher! "Perception". I.e., folks tend to think
more expensive things are *worth* more. (It also gives
them more leeway to reduce the price over time)

[I read a couple of texts, recently, that tried to describe
how we perceive value, why we pay what we pay, etc. It was
interesting in that it addressed all sorts of "things" that
we "invest in" -- e.g., religion! And, why religions that
demand a lot from their adherents tend to have more committed
devotees (they've got more *invested*! More reason to *want*
to believe!)]

Yeah, but this stuff does not cut it. It is not true home automation.

Remember that thought... :>

I have to disagree with you on that. HA to me is something totally
different. Not super-expensive gear where I can beam a recipe to the
oven but gear where I can control outdoor lights, media, coffee makers,
mood lighting, has sensors and so on.

Exactly. And, more! (below)

That requires real HA, not just the gizmos. The system would need to
learn your habits. The sensors are fairly easy but, as usual,
unobtanium. For example, a water meter link or flow sensor can provide
enough information to figure out "Oh, someone is taking a shower".

Ah, gwasshoppa... now you see! :> Hence the task I have set for
myself!

It's too "broad" for an appliance/device manufacturer. Dealing
with security devices, HVAC, electric/gas/water utilities,
household appliances, etc. And, to be done effectively, requires
a pretty high level of "instrumentation saturation" -- you can't
just automate the lighting, etc. So, "customers" need to make
a significant commitment -- *or* the hooks have to already
be IN PLACE for all these things. I.e., an interface that's
already present on each of your appliances, control systems,
etc. just WAITING to be used.

And, for a "tinkerer", it requires a wide knowledge/experience
base. Hardware design (analog and digital interfaces to sensors
and actuators), software design (OS's, comms, applications, etc.),
a feel for what the user is likely to accept as an interface,
a sense for cost and packaging (since you won't be building it
out of discarded PC's), etc.

So, there is a huge startup cost, up front. Intimidating to most
folks busy in a 9-to-5.

OTOH, once a framework is available and demonstrably running,
relatively easy for folks to tinker around the edges.

"I designed an interface for a GE Model F1234 refrigerator."
"I wrote a driver for a Bosch G4433 dishwasher."
"I wrote an app that talks to the generic 'furnace' interface
and controls indoor temperature"
"I've added support for the Latvian language"

Most folks can't "create". But, are very adept at tweeking
an existing/proven design to make it do something else (or
*better*!)

But, they have to have someplace from which to start!

That's not it. One must monitor the whole house and deduce from
consumption patterns what is what. Like what does it look like when
someone takes a shower? What does it look like if a pizza is baked in
the oven? Those are heavy-hitters in consumption.

Exactly. Turning appliances on and off from your smartphone
is just an expensive version of 1970's technology (I had an aunt
who could turn any light in her home on/off from her bed -- and
the system was installed in 1950! But, in the living room, she
could only turn on the living room light! :< )

Until you have a framework in place, you can't begin to come up
with the myriad different "things" it can do for you!

(Instead of just streaming live video from the front doorway to
a TV monitor, why not recognize the face: "Bob is at the front
door. Do you want him to know you are home? Or, should I
just tell him no one is here and he can leave a video message
for you?" Or, maybe even let him *in* to pick up something
that you have left for him -- but if he shows up at any
other time, he's treated like a generic visitor)

Not sure where you live. Last time I flew to San Diego (few weeks ago) I
scanned the neighborhoods from above. I was very surprised how little
there was in solar installations. There were whole blocks where nobody
had solar.

So. AZ. A modest, middle-class neighborhood. Nothing excessive.
I am really surprised at how much solar I see! It seems like it
would be too soon to iron out the bugs.

(One of the neighbors has a large, *planar* array -- i.e., not
"staggered" like sawteeth. Of course, the north edge is the
"high side". Probably at least a 10 ft rise. Which means
he's got a 20ft wide, many hundred square foot *sail* ready
to catch the microbursts that blow in from the NORTH! :-/
It will be interesting to see if the array survives. *And*,
if it peels the roof off his house in the process!!)

Yup. If the electronics goes bad they'll likely fleece you unless you
can find out with a sharp eye that it's a particular electrolytic that
went bad. Or in my recent case an inadequately cooled linear regulator
went phut.

Exactly. It's like having an auto mechanic servicing your
refrigerator. WTF??

I thought about that. Harborfreight's 45W panel was down to $150 last
time I looked. Still a bit high.

I salvaged a bunch of tiny panels. Note that I have several days
of sunlight to recharge the battery between rain storms (which is
when I would nominally need the pump). The inverter is just gravy
for those times when it *won't* be raining (i.e., 90% of the year!)

(also handy when a car needs a "jump". Since we can expect
batteries to die pretty regularly, here, you have to *plan*
on it! At least they don't die and leave us trapped in the
*snow*! :> )

--don

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,

On 7/29/2013 5:38 PM, Joerg wrote:
[...]

But all your IP "peel-off" boxes are not available commercially.
Technically I see no major problems but logistically I do.

Yes, but someone has to start the process! :> It sure isn't
going to be a PLUMBER who does it!

Unless someone barges into the market with loss tenders or
super-aggressive pricing it will remain a niche.

[...]

But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
happen. Consequently it's not happening.

Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes.
With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability
of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they
could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs
(air conditioning and heating)

[forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to
"tiny-fy" them :< ]

<http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>

250 bucks for a thermostat? Are they crazy?

[snip rest of examples as we agree on the insanity of the prices, etc.]

The "Nest" device is actually pretty sexxy. But, yes, $250 is
ridiculous. Even some of the cheaper units are $150, etc.

They'd have to offer a real starter kit for $99 or so, something that
gets people hooked. It has to be able to control stuff that's otherwise
difficult to control, such as outdoor lighting. And no forcing into
monthly deals. From there on it'll become a self-starter but
unfortunately industry does not understand.

Think about Malibu lights. Everyone waits for the sale and then buys one
or two boxes of 20 each, at $19.95 or sometimes a little more. Those
contain the lights, wire and a transformer with a (lousy quality) timer
in there. Then people get hooked and come back for more. That fancy
flood light for the plum tree, multi-color lights, and so on. Some later
get turned off because of the miserable quality of the timers.

They are stuck in that they need to make the device "unique"
(e.g., it has a really slick user interface) so it *looks*
like it is worth that money. They have much smaller quantities
than generic thermostats. And *way* higher costs! (since a
thermostat is a no-brainer to design electromechanically...
even electronically!)

Then they need better engineering teams. I have designed similar stuff
and it is not expensive. One has to resist the temptation to make custom
LCD displays and stuff, it's not necessary. Keep it simple.

They also have a fair bit of real estate on the store floor
(large display -- ever wonder why breakfast cereal is as
expensive as STEAK??)

Curiously, there is actually an *advantage* to making the
price higher! "Perception". I.e., folks tend to think
more expensive things are *worth* more. (It also gives
them more leeway to reduce the price over time)

That is guaranteed to fail in HA. And it has for decades.

[I read a couple of texts, recently, that tried to describe
how we perceive value, why we pay what we pay, etc. It was
interesting in that it addressed all sorts of "things" that
we "invest in" -- e.g., religion! And, why religions that
demand a lot from their adherents tend to have more committed
devotees (they've got more *invested*! More reason to *want*
to believe!)]

That only works with a small subset of the population these days.

Remember that thought... :>


Exactly. And, more! (below)


Ah, gwasshoppa... now you see! :> Hence the task I have set for
myself!

It's too "broad" for an appliance/device manufacturer. ...

Then they should leave the biz and maybe start mass-producing muffins or
something

... Dealing
with security devices, HVAC, electric/gas/water utilities,
household appliances, etc. And, to be done effectively, requires
a pretty high level of "instrumentation saturation" -- you can't
just automate the lighting, etc. ...

Sure you can. I have done it here but all I had available was the crummy
and unreliable X10 "system". It did all I wanted from it but the modules
fell apart, comms broke down, et cetera. It's easy, if the hardware and
the protocol would not be so poor.

... So, "customers" need to make
a significant commitment -- *or* the hooks have to already
be IN PLACE for all these things. I.e., an interface that's
already present on each of your appliances, control systems,
etc. just WAITING to be used.

Nah. Start with outdoor lighting. Then indoor lighting, then include the
furnace, then offer an Internet link, and by that time you'll be in
business. Because people "must have" it.

And, for a "tinkerer", it requires a wide knowledge/experience
base. Hardware design (analog and digital interfaces to sensors
and actuators), software design (OS's, comms, applications, etc.),
a feel for what the user is likely to accept as an interface,
a sense for cost and packaging (since you won't be building it
out of discarded PC's), etc.

So, there is a huge startup cost, up front. Intimidating to most
folks busy in a 9-to-5.

OTOH, once a framework is available and demonstrably running,
relatively easy for folks to tinker around the edges.

"I designed an interface for a GE Model F1234 refrigerator."
"I wrote a driver for a Bosch G4433 dishwasher."
"I wrote an app that talks to the generic 'furnace' interface
and controls indoor temperature"
"I've added support for the Latvian language"

Most folks can't "create". But, are very adept at tweeking
an existing/proven design to make it do something else (or
*better*!)

But, they have to have someplace from which to start!

Right, and that's hardware. All one has to do is this:

Take all the X10 stuff, develop a transmission protocol that works, then
develop the hardware in a more reliable fashion. Run through UL. That's
it. Now offer through Amazon, Home Depot, Lowe's and later maybe Costco,
Sam's Club, Walmart.

Exactly. Turning appliances on and off from your smartphone
is just an expensive version of 1970's technology (I had an aunt
who could turn any light in her home on/off from her bed -- and
the system was installed in 1950! But, in the living room, she
could only turn on the living room light! :< )

Until you have a framework in place, you can't begin to come up
with the myriad different "things" it can do for you!

You don't need the whole enchilada from the start. For example, if you
only had up-to-the-minute TOU pricing info, a decent meter feedback in
realtime, and a friendly TOU tariff, that gets it started.

If the utility won't play, start with outdoor lighting, sprinklers, pool
pumps.

(Instead of just streaming live video from the front doorway to
a TV monitor, why not recognize the face: "Bob is at the front
door. Do you want him to know you are home? Or, should I
just tell him no one is here and he can leave a video message
for you?" Or, maybe even let him *in* to pick up something
that you have left for him -- but if he shows up at any
other time, he's treated like a generic visitor)

Most people (like us) wouldn't care. We just go and look. If a sales
dude we tell him "not interested", else it's "Hey, want to have a
beer?". We are also not screening our phone calls.

So. AZ. A modest, middle-class neighborhood. Nothing excessive.
I am really surprised at how much solar I see! It seems like it
would be too soon to iron out the bugs.

Maybe you politicos were smarter and there is a good feed-in deal?

(One of the neighbors has a large, *planar* array -- i.e., not
"staggered" like sawteeth. Of course, the north edge is the
"high side". Probably at least a 10 ft rise. Which means
he's got a 20ft wide, many hundred square foot *sail* ready
to catch the microbursts that blow in from the NORTH! :-/
It will be interesting to see if the array survives. *And*,
if it peels the roof off his house in the process!!)

Out here it would be almost guaranteed to peel off.

Exactly. It's like having an auto mechanic servicing your
refrigerator. WTF??

They do not service electronics, they usually keep replacing until
something sticks. On your nickel.

I salvaged a bunch of tiny panels. Note that I have several days
of sunlight to recharge the battery between rain storms (which is
when I would nominally need the pump). The inverter is just gravy
for those times when it *won't* be raining (i.e., 90% of the year!)

Where do you get salvaged panels? Never seen any here.

(also handy when a car needs a "jump". Since we can expect
batteries to die pretty regularly, here, you have to *plan*
on it! At least they don't die and leave us trapped in the
*snow*! :> )

Yes, panels are very handy if you can take one along for the ride.