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Can a capacitor let DC current through?

M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jamie said:
Old, I'd like to consider my self a young guy!

Gray hair are loved by many young ladies!

I don't know if it has anything to do with lack of
threat or what ever! :)


What does gray hair have to do with age? Mine started to turn while
I was still in high school, and I was completely gray by the time I was
20.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
R

Radiosrfun

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
What does gray hair have to do with age? Mine started to turn while
I was still in high school, and I was completely gray by the time I was
20.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

My brother had half gray hair - half his normal color by the time he was
like 30.
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
My thought about this is... No, capacitors do not let DC current through,
nor AC currents either.

Capacitors block DC voltage. AC signals appear to pass through capacitors,
but they don't actually do that.

Flame away.
 
N

Nobody

Jan 1, 1970
0
My thought about this is... No, capacitors do not let DC current through,
nor AC currents either.

Capacitors block DC voltage. AC signals appear to pass through capacitors,
but they don't actually do that.

Flame away.

The *signal* definitely passes through the capacitor. If it "appears" to
pass, then it does; that's the nature of a "signal".

Whether or not the current "passes" is largely a question of semantics.
Certainly, the electrons themselves don't pass, but at any moment
in time, current flows into one lead and the same amount of current
simultaneously flows out of the other.
 
A

Anonymous.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Bowey said:
Capacitors block DC voltage. AC signals appear to pass through
capacitors,
but they don't actually do that.

Correct.

It's simple electrostatics.

An electron arriving on one plate of (assumed vacuum dielectric)
will repel another from the opposite plate.

An electron pulled off one plate will attract an electron onto
the other.

Pulling and pushing in this way is the essence of AC.

The current doesn't actually flow through, but because the net effect on
both
sides is the same, the current appears to flow through!
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
The *signal* definitely passes through the capacitor. If it "appears" to
pass, then it does; that's the nature of a "signal".

Whether or not the current "passes" is largely a question of semantics.
Certainly, the electrons themselves don't pass, but at any moment
in time, current flows into one lead and the same amount of current
simultaneously flows out of the other.

But it's not a matter of semantics - it is a matter of what is actually
happening with AC signals. Practically speaking, it doesn't usually make
much difference, however.
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Correct.

It's simple electrostatics.

An electron arriving on one plate of (assumed vacuum dielectric)
will repel another from the opposite plate.

An electron pulled off one plate will attract an electron onto
the other.

Pulling and pushing in this way is the essence of AC.

The current doesn't actually flow through, but because the net effect on
both
sides is the same, the current appears to flow through!

Yes!
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pulling and pushing in this way is the essence of AC.

The current doesn't actually flow through, but because the net effect on
both
sides is the same, the current appears to flow through!

No, it really does flow through. The problem here is
that while we typically imagine current to be a
stream of electrons, all nicely charging down a path
(perhaps in single file, and all in step), real "electrical
current" only follows this model in such thing as the
beam of a CRT.

Current is the effective flow of electrical ENERGY;
it involves the motion of charge carriers, and its units
are defined in terms of charges-per-second, but is not
directly equivalent with the motion of a particular charge
carrier or group except under very specific circumstances.
For example, what is the "speed" of electrical currents
through a conductor? For almost all practical concerns,
it makes sense to look at only the propagation speed
of the energy or signal in question - even though the
individual electrons are moving FAR slower than this.

Bob M.
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oh Hum.

Nope.

I have a motor that runs on 60 Hz AC. I
put a big honkin' capacitor in series with the
line. The motor keeps running. I put an ammeter
also in series, first on one side of the cap and then
on the other, and get the same reading both
times. So what isn't "flowing through," in your
opinion?

Or are you thinking that the very electrons that
are passing through my desk lamp at this very
moment actually made a visit to the nearest
power generating station in recent memory?

Bob M.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
The *signal* definitely passes through the capacitor. If it "appears" to
pass, then it does; that's the nature of a "signal".

Whether or not the current "passes" is largely a question of semantics.
Certainly, the electrons themselves don't pass, but at any moment
in time, current flows into one lead and the same amount of current
simultaneously flows out of the other.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
My thought about this is... No, capacitors do not let DC current through,
nor AC currents either.

Capacitors block DC voltage. AC signals appear to pass through capacitors,
but they don't actually do that.

Flame away.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
1st question : Till now, I believed that capacitors only let AC
signals through while blocking DC. But then, I saw a schematic whee
they put a capacitor on the output line of an opamp. The signal into
the opamp was a square wave signal (which I imagine is DC and not
AC).

Well, you imagine wrong. It's "pulsating DC", yes, but it's composed
of many AC components riding on a DC reference. The way it gets through
the capacitor is that at the rising and falling edge of the waveform,
the capacitor suddenly finds itself with a voltage difference across
it, and charge wants to flow so as to minimize that potential.

So, essentially, for this application, the square wave can be considered
AC.

In fact, with the right instruments, when you first apply DC to one
terminal of a cap, that change in voltage is coupled to the other
plate by the capacitance, and the capacitor charges according to
T=RC (google "time constant".)

Hope This Helps!
Rich
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Unfortunately, so do the sparks of stupidity. :(


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
N

Nobody

Jan 1, 1970
0
Correct.

It's simple electrostatics.

An electron arriving on one plate of (assumed vacuum dielectric)
will repel another from the opposite plate.

An electron pulled off one plate will attract an electron onto
the other.

Pulling and pushing in this way is the essence of AC.

The current doesn't actually flow through, but because the net effect on both
sides is the same, the current appears to flow through!

You can say the same thing about a length of wire. The electrons which
flow into one end aren't the same ones which flow out the other end,
unless the current is DC and you are prepared to wait a long time.

When it comes to AC, the question of whether a current flows *through* a
component is the same whether that component is a capacitor or a resistor.

An alternating current either flows "through" both, or it flows through
neither, or you are arbitrarily changing the definition of "through".
 
V

vorange

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, you imagine wrong. It's "pulsating DC", yes, but it's composed
of many AC components riding on a DC reference.

Thank you all for your response.

But a few more (perhaps dumb) questions :

1) What is the output from a microcontroller's pwm that is generating
square waves considered (+5v -> 0v -> +5v -> 0v...etc)? Is it
considered an AC or DC signal or a combination of both? After reading
all the replies, I'm left with the impression that "pulsed DC" is
considered as AC by some folks here even though it does not reverse
direction (go negative) when it goes low (0v).

2) Should not the output from a capacitor be HIGH if it encouters a
steady DC current? I know you've said that capacitors 'block' steady
DC currents but why? Mentally, I imagine when the dc current first
hits the capacitor's plate like a tsunami, it charges up the plate and
pushes electrons on the opposite plate away. I imagine those (pushed
away) electrons then go "racing away" from the capacitor perhaps
towards a load which should be driven HIGH by those electrons so long
as the capacitor's opposite plate is charged (which is what a DC
current should keep doing). Why then is this not the case ? Somehow
the mental model just does not fit. I can imagine how AC passes
after reading the descriptions you guys have provided but why DC does
not generate a contiuous high.

If only I could watch cartoons of what the electrons were doing, it
would all be clear to me.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
vorange said:
1) What is the output from a microcontroller's pwm that is generating
square waves considered (+5v -> 0v -> +5v -> 0v...etc)? Is it
considered an AC or DC signal or a combination of both? After reading
all the replies, I'm left with the impression that "pulsed DC" is
considered as AC by some folks here even though it does not reverse
direction (go negative) when it goes low (0v).

DC has two common meanings. One is unidirectional current
or voltage, regardless of how it varies with time, and the
other is steady current or voltage. I think most circuit
designers (who are familiar with Fourier and LaPlace
analysis) tend to think in the frequency domain, at least
part of the time, and are more likely to think of DC as a
steady current or voltage, essentially a zero frequency signal.

By that frequency domain way of thinking, that pulsing PWM
unidirectional voltage has some DC component (the average
voltage, and a whole series of AC components with various
magnitudes and phases, relative to the pulse timing, that
are all harmonics of the pulse frequency. Filters with
various frequency responses will pass varying amounts of all
those components.
2) Should not the output from a capacitor be HIGH if it encouters a
steady DC current?

Very. Infinite, if you wait an infinitely long time. The
only way to get current through a capacitor is to have the
voltage across it change at some rate. The formula that
relates current to rate of change of voltage is :

I=C*(dv/dt) with I in amperes, C in farads, and dv/dt in
volts per second.

So, the only way to get 1 ampere of DC to pass through an
ideal 1 uF capacitor is to have the voltage across the
capacitor climb at 1 million volts per second, and keep
climbing at that rate for as long as the current must occur.
Since few of us have voltage sources, that can climb
toward infinity, sitting around, we generally think of
capacitors as devices that cannot pass DC.
I know you've said that capacitors 'block' steady
DC currents but why? Mentally, I imagine when the dc current first
hits the capacitor's plate like a tsunami, it charges up the plate and
pushes electrons on the opposite plate away.

That's good. But that sudden onset of voltage is not DC in
the frequency domain sense, but DC plus an infinity of AC
frequencies all added together. The sudden high rate of
change of voltage across the capacitor accounts for the
high, momentary current.
I imagine those (pushed
away) electrons then go "racing away" from the capacitor perhaps
towards a load which should be driven HIGH by those electrons so long
as the capacitor's opposite plate is charged (which is what a DC
current should keep doing). Why then is this not the case ?

Sounds pretty good to me. The output DC will be maintained,
if there is no load current. So static DC voltage is
possible through a capacitor. This is the same as the DC on
rubbed balloons. But you can't get a steady current from
this effect, only steady, insulated voltage.
Somehow
the mental model just does not fit. I can imagine how AC passes
after reading the descriptions you guys have provided but why DC does
not generate a contiuous high.

AC supplies repeated (and alternating) rate of change of
voltage, so alternating current can be passed.
If only I could watch cartoons of what the electrons were doing, it
would all be clear to me.

It is a shame we can't put on special glasses and watch the
little buggers. All this would be a lot less abstract.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thank you all for your response.

But a few more (perhaps dumb) questions :

1) What is the output from a microcontroller's pwm that is generating
square waves considered (+5v -> 0v -> +5v -> 0v...etc)? Is it
considered an AC or DC signal or a combination of both? After reading
all the replies, I'm left with the impression that "pulsed DC" is
considered as AC by some folks here even though it does not reverse
direction (go negative) when it goes low (0v).

"AC" and "DC" are extremely vague terms, and a capacitor doesn't care
about terminology; most capacitors are made in foreign countries and
don't even understand English. Whether a signal is one or the other
depends on the time frame over which it's observed. A 1-cycle-per-year
sine wave sure looks like DC if you observe it for an hour.

For practical purposes, in this case, look at the signal as having a
longterm average value and call that the DC component. If you subtract
that from the waveform, what's left is the AC component. So a general
signal, like your square wave, has both AC and DC components. A
capacitive coupling circuit, if the capacitor is the right value, will
block the longterm average ("DC") and pass through the short-term
wiggles (the "AC" component).

If the square wave is slow enough, the capacitor will get confused and
think that the high and low parts of the wave are actually DC, so will
lose interest in passing them, so the coupled waveform will start to
droop. Capacitors aren't terrible bright, and have short attention
spans.

John
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can say the same thing about a length of wire. The electrons which
flow into one end aren't the same ones which flow out the other end,
unless the current is DC and you are prepared to wait a long time.

When it comes to AC, the question of whether a current flows *through* a
component is the same whether that component is a capacitor or a resistor.

An alternating current either flows "through" both, or it flows through
neither, or you are arbitrarily changing the definition of "through".

A resistor has no dielectric barrier. A capacitor does.

Why do you believe "An alternating current either flows "through" both, or
it flows through neither...?"
 
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