Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Another set of batteries failed, almost catastrophically

  • Thread starter 'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
  • Start date
C

'Captain' Kirk DeHaan

Jan 1, 1970
0
I had reported almost having a battery fire a while back when one set
of batteries shorted out and tried to consume the rest. Those were
pulled out of service and all seemed well. I had to remove another
set last night as performance had dropped rapidly and when checking
water levels found that the plates were almost exposed in them. The
others were fine. Again, hot to the touch and boiling without much
input from the panels. After removal performance shot up!

They are 9 years old and all will be replace next week.

Just a lesson to keep your eye on things especially when they are
getting near end of life.



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly

www.sandpoint.net/captkirk
www.stormyacres.com
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan said:
I had reported almost having a battery fire a while back when one set
of batteries shorted out and tried to consume the rest.

I had one cell in a series string of two golf cart batteries fail:
http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/DailyBatteryVoltage.htm but the
voltage, when it dropped, took almost 11 hours to drop from 12.5 to
10.5 volts, and even the 'quick' drop at
http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/CellShortCloseup.htm took 45 minutes
(though Excel doesn't seem to want to show the chart that way...).
Maybe having cells in parallel allows more current to dump into a
short, or maybe I had a different failure mode...
 
N

N9WOS

Jan 1, 1970
0
I had one cell in a series string of two golf cart batteries fail:
http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/DailyBatteryVoltage.htm but the
voltage, when it dropped, took almost 11 hours to drop from 12.5 to
10.5 volts, and even the 'quick' drop at
http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/CellShortCloseup.htm took 45 minutes
(though Excel doesn't seem to want to show the chart that way...).
Maybe having cells in parallel allows more current to dump into a
short, or maybe I had a different failure mode...

Failure mode of a 12v battery system.

I will give an idea of the events that would
accrue in the failure of a series 12V (6 cells) system,
And a series parallel 12V system consisting of
10 batteries (of 6 cells each) in parallel..

Series system.
Stage one.
One cell shorts,
The total energy capacity of that cell will be turned to heat in that cell.
Other cells will not be affected, besides moderate heating of adjacent cells
for a short period of time.
Total battery voltage under load is 8.3V to 10V
When the charger brings it up to 13V float voltage,
You will be giving the working cells a good EQ charge.
Operator may not notice, but may think the system is running low all the
time.
Automatic low state of charge cut outs may shut down the system at night.
Most systems that don't use low state of charge protection will operate
close to normal.
Constant EQ charge levels may reduce life of working cells,
and promote shorting of cells.

Stage two.
Second cell shorts.
Any automatic low state of charge cut outs would render the system unusable
at night.
The remaining cells would receive a heavy EQ charge each day the sun shines.
On systems that don't use a low SOC cutout,
only voltage variance tolerant electronic equipment will remain functioning,
Incandescent lights will be noticeably dimmer.
The charging equipment will work hard to get it up to 13V, if possible.
The battery size is considerable compared to available charging current,
so there is not enough charge current to promote thermal runaway.
Life of remaining cells will be short from the heavy charging during the
day.

Stage three.
Half of the cells are shorted.
Charging system will not be able to bring voltage to regulation levels.
Only the most tolerant electronic equipment will work at night.
Incandescent will be dim.
If there is an operator present, he should have found the problem by then.
Most smart charging systems will know there is a problem and go into an
error state.

Stage four.
Two cells left.
If the site has any contact with the outside world, they should know there
is a problem.
Remote radio sites will be obvious from the system not working.

Stage five.
One cell working.
Only small things like 12V clocks that can work down to 2V or so, will
remain working.

Stage six.
Complete short.
Panels will be dumping into a short, nothing works.


For a series parallel system.

Stage one.
One cell on a battery in the system shorts.
The problem battery will be in a quasi float charge in comparison to the
rest of the system.
During the day, it will get a good EQ charge.
During the night, it will deliver no useable capacity.
It will be a leach on the system.
Only the most picky and finicky operator will notice.
He will have to take a SG check on the shorted cell to know there is a
problem.
Most people with sealed batteries will be completely un aware of any fault
condition.
They will just think that the battery bank it getting old, and loosing
capacity.
Some may find out by pulling strings and doing voltage checks during normal
maintenance.
Some may find out by the problem battery gassing abnormally during EQ
charges on the system.
Some may find out by doing a simple "temperature by hand", check after an EQ
charge.
Some may notice by the abnormal water consumption of the problem battery.
Constant overcharging will promote shorting in the other cells of the
affected aging battery.

Stage two.
The second cell shorts in the problem battery.
The battery will become a moderate load on the system.
If it is a system of 10 or more batteries, and the dally system usage is
high, many operators will not notice.
The battery will be noticeably hotter than the rest of the units all the
time.
The battery will probably not go into thermal runaway unless the ambient
temp is high.
Gassing will be noticeable during most of the normal system cycle.
Thermal runaway may be triggered by an EQ charge.
Life of the existing cells will be short.
If it stays in that condition, and no more cells short, the battery will
safely boil dry.
Shorting of other cells is highly possible by the sediments being stirred up
in the battery by charging.

Stage three.
Half the cells are shorted.
You have just started down the one way track to Chernobyl.
Power consumption off the rest of the battery bank, will be large
Thermal runaway is guarantied.
Battery case may soften from the heat generated.
Boiling will obvious.
Remaining cells will either boil dry, or short, or boil dry and short, in
quick order.
Most interbank fuses will blow at this time.

Stage four,
Two cells left.
Any Interbank fuse or fuseable links will melt at this time.
You will have gas venting out the top of the battery like a steam pot.
Case of the battery will start melting which will cause the last two cells
to short.
The already shorted cells will boil any remaining fluid off,
and the hot plates will start melting through the plastic case.

Stage five.
One cell left, and it won't last long.

Stage six.
A complete short.
If there is any sizable charge left in the rest of the bank.
Plastic of the problem battery will probably ignite from the molten lead.
The insulation on the battery interconnects will melt off, and any remaining
insulation will ignite.
Cables will arc cut through any metal enclosure like a blow torch through
hot butter.
Any plastic conduit will burst into flame on contact with red hot
conductors.
Any wood will ignite on contact with conductors.
Flames will encompass most of the area until, all consumable materials
inside or outside a solid metal enclosure is consumed, or the enclosure
burns down (the owners house), or the fire department puts out the fire.
 
B

Bughunter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Presuming that your senario is correct, or nearly correct, what design
provisions could be made to avoid the most catastrophic failure mode in an
unattended system?

You seem to suggest that observation and immediate repair is necessary for
preventing a cascading mode of failure. But, surely there must be some
automatic means to prevent a bank from digressing into a catrosrophic house
fire.

My system will run attended for 5 months of the year. While I'm willing to
assume some risk of a bank self distructing, I would invest in automatic
systems to prevent my house from burning down.

What comes to mind is using a fireproof battery enclosure for the bank.
Maybe concrete block, with a fire rated ceiling. That expence would seem to
be a good investment if it could prevent a bank fire from spreading to the
rest of the structure.

What is the purpose of the interbank fusing if not to prevent a fire?

Where are fuses required in series parallel arrangement?

How do you calculate their rating?

Would there be any safety advantage to reducing the number of charging
panels to a minimum just to keep the batteries from freezing over the
winter? Over the winter months, my loads are almost nil, so the PV would be
used just to keep the bank from self discharging and eventually
freezing. -50f is not uncommon over the winter.

Design for safety ideas?
 
R

Rob

Jan 1, 1970
0
Soooo, in your opinion what's the odds of a 'meltdown' occurring ? Just
starting to build up a 'power set-up' (inverter, batts (all at once soon
$$) charger). Should I also figure in an outdoor enclosure for the
batts? Live in Canada so winter would sap avail power, but burning down
the house would make the emergency power set-up a moot point....Rob.
 
C

'Captain' Kirk DeHaan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Failure mode of a 12v battery system.

I will give an idea of the events that would
accrue in the failure of a series 12V (6 cells) system,
And a series parallel 12V system consisting of
10 batteries (of 6 cells each) in parallel..

Series system.
Stage one.
One cell shorts,
The total energy capacity of that cell will be turned to heat in that cell.
Other cells will not be affected, besides moderate heating of adjacent cells
for a short period of time.
Total battery voltage under load is 8.3V to 10V
When the charger brings it up to 13V float voltage,
You will be giving the working cells a good EQ charge.
Operator may not notice, but may think the system is running low all the
time.
Automatic low state of charge cut outs may shut down the system at night.
Most systems that don't use low state of charge protection will operate
close to normal.
Constant EQ charge levels may reduce life of working cells,
and promote shorting of cells.


This is a very good description of what I saw in my system.



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly

www.sandpoint.net/captkirk
www.stormyacres.com
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rob said:
Soooo, in your opinion what's the odds of a 'meltdown' occurring ?

Beats me, somewhere between 2 (my experience) and 9(?) years (Kirk's)
would certainly cover all the bases, even if it's not a very useful
answer. I think I'd build a setup that could withstand a battery fire
(or leak, or explosion, or other catastrophic failure) just to be
safe. [What that means in each case is probably different, but a
fireproof battery box {vented to the} outside shouldn't be rocket
science.]

I'd also rather have one set of large cells in series than having a
number of parallel batteries, to reduce the fault current in the event
of a short.
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
N9WOS said:
For a series parallel system.

Stage one.
One cell on a battery in the system shorts.
The problem battery will be in a quasi float charge in comparison to the
rest of the system.
During the day, it will get a good EQ charge.
During the night, it will deliver no useable capacity.
It will be a leach on the system.

It's worse than that, isn't it? The battery with the shorted cell
will discharge the parallel battery, overheating the shorted one and
ruining the parallel one, yes?
 
N

N9WOS

Jan 1, 1970
0
My system will run attended for 5 months of the year. While I'm willing to
assume some risk of a bank self distructing, I would invest in automatic
systems to prevent my house from burning down.

What comes to mind is using a fireproof battery enclosure for the bank.
Maybe concrete block, with a fire rated ceiling. That expence would seem to
be a good investment if it could prevent a bank fire from spreading to the
rest of the structure.

Those are good ideas.
You want something that is non conductive, and won't burn.
Concrete is a good idea.
Something like A concrete pit, with a fiberglass, or asbestos cover
And nothing flammable around the pit, that a flying spark could ignite.
The batteries will burn themselves out without the fire spreading.
What is the purpose of the interbank fusing if not to prevent a fire?

That is what they are there for.
I was just making a note of where they would most likely blow.
When they blow, the digression of the condition stops.
Where are fuses required in series parallel arrangement?

How do you calculate their rating?

It would depend upon the amount of reliability you want out of the system.
Would there be any safety advantage to reducing the number of charging
panels to a minimum just to keep the batteries from freezing over the
winter? Over the winter months, my loads are almost nil, so the PV would be
used just to keep the bank from self discharging and eventually
freezing. -50f is not uncommon over the winter.

Design for safety ideas?

Design the system to fail in a safe mode.
Put fuseable links, or fuses in all parallel setups.
Keep the batteries out of the main house when possible.
If they are in the house, make sure that they won't destroy something if
they do melt down.
The safety measures will depend upon the installation.

Design for the worst case scenario, hope for the best.
 
C

'Captain' Kirk DeHaan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rob said:
Soooo, in your opinion what's the odds of a 'meltdown' occurring ?

Beats me, somewhere between 2 (my experience) and 9(?) years (Kirk's)
would certainly cover all the bases, even if it's not a very useful
answer. I think I'd build a setup that could withstand a battery fire
(or leak, or explosion, or other catastrophic failure) just to be
safe. [What that means in each case is probably different, but a
fireproof battery box {vented to the} outside shouldn't be rocket
science.]

I'd also rather have one set of large cells in series than having a
number of parallel batteries, to reduce the fault current in the event
of a short.


For me, unfortunately, I must keep the batteries in the house in the
utility room. ( N. Idaho winter is detrimental to battery capacity.)
Wooden house, wooden floor, wooden battery box. I am going to look
into fusing the parallel hookups now but since I am obsessive
concerning safety I will have to rely on eyeball monitoring for the
near future. I DO have the batteries in plastic tubs to catch any
acid but it won't do much good for hot lead.

The box is vented to the outside with forced ventilation when the
batteries get to 14.5 V. This is handled using the programmable
relays in my SW2512.

Realistically I don't think the chances for me of a true meltdown are
a great concern. But then I am here year round. If it was a vacation
cabin things might be different.



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly

www.sandpoint.net/captkirk
www.stormyacres.com
 
G

Gordon Richmond

Jan 1, 1970
0
Aside from fusing parallel batteries, one thing a person could do,
particularly if the battery bank is inside a house, would be to
provide a tank (say a plastic barrel) filled with baking soda
solution, and mount this tank several feet above the battery bank. Run
a line from this tank to a fire sprinkler head mounted over the
batteries. If something really nasty ahppens, and it gets hot in
there, the sprinkler head will function and drizzle the area with soda
solution, which would tend to quench a fire,a nd also neutralize any
spilled acid.

Just a thought, and it would be pretty cheap insurance.

Gordon Richmond
 
N

No One

Jan 1, 1970
0
Aside from fusing parallel batteries, one thing a person could do,
particularly if the battery bank is inside a house, would be to
provide a tank (say a plastic barrel) filled with baking soda
solution, and mount this tank several feet above the battery bank. Run
a line from this tank to a fire sprinkler head mounted over the
batteries. If something really nasty ahppens, and it gets hot in
there, the sprinkler head will function and drizzle the area with soda
solution, which would tend to quench a fire,a nd also neutralize any
spilled acid.

Good idea but I don't think it would work. I don't think the baking soda
would "drizzle" out, you'd have to have a pressurized system. If you are
really worried and need something like this I'd look for a restaurant supply
house and check out the fire ex designed for deep fat fryers. IIRC, they
use baking soda, nontoxic, and having seen one of them in action I can tell
you it would put out more than enough soda to handle quite a few batteries.
 
That's good, for battery lifetime. Cold batteries last longer, and
their self-discharge rate is lower. But they have less available
capacity. This capacity returns as they are warmed...
Add a heater plate under the battery bank.
Thermo switch to kick it on when it's COLD.

I'd do this only as needed to discharge them.
A watt-hour of heat energy can "release"
more than a watt-hour of capacity.

Nick
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
No One said:
Good idea but I don't think it would work. I don't think the baking soda
would "drizzle" out, you'd have to have a pressurized system.

I think he was thinking of baking soda dissolved in a water solution, not
dry powder. Although I *have* seen dry powder fire systems, they use CO2 or
N2 to blow the powder out. Perhaps a bit too complicated for this. But a
drum suspended up high with a water-soda solution might be practical.

Of course, putting water of any kind on an electrical fire is a bad idea.
:-(
If you are
really worried and need something like this I'd look for a restaurant supply
house and check out the fire ex designed for deep fat fryers. IIRC, they
use baking soda, nontoxic, and having seen one of them in action I can tell
you it would put out more than enough soda to handle quite a few
batteries.

Yep. That's the kind I've seen. A pressurization canister (CO2 I think)
helps to put out the fire as well. But what a *mess* to clean up
afterwards.

daestrom
 
E

Ecnerwal

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep. That's the kind I've seen. A pressurization canister (CO2 I think)
helps to put out the fire as well. But what a *mess* to clean up
afterwards.

Keep it in perspective - a few hours or days cleaning up a mess of
powder goes a _lot_ faster than cleaning up the charred remains of the
building. The last restaurant fire in this town took the restaurant
(business) out for over a year, and they moved up the street when they
reopened - the building has taken over 3 years to get fixed (the
landlord let it sit boarded up for quite a while, I assume due to the
insurance dawdling/ligitgating over the settlement). Makes a powdery
mess look quite attractive.
 
B

Bughunter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Good question.. Here's where my ignorance shows. Somebody help me here
please.
My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what .....? ....40%? and
that's the size.

Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring,
you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is
intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a series-parallel
bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect.

It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load,
because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates
become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to
protect the load.

So, I'm speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more to
do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps a
single battery in that string. I'd also guess that it has something to do
with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid batteries.

I'd love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I
currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank wired
series-parallel.

It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and
it's going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and it's
usless.
 
C

'Captain' Kirk DeHaan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring,
you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is
intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a series-parallel
bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect.

It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load,
because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates
become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to
protect the load.

So, I'm speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more to
do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps a
single battery in that string. I'd also guess that it has something to do
with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid batteries.

I'd love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I
currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank wired
series-parallel.

It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and
it's going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and it's
usless.

One thing I'm confused about, relative to the sizing of the fuses, is
the total draw from the bank. I have my positive lead at one end of
bank and the negative at the other. This puts the total load
eventually going through 1 fuse. Or am I missing something?
Irregardless of the configuration it seems to me that each fuse would
be seeing a different current load.



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly

www.sandpoint.net/captkirk
www.stormyacres.com
 
B

Bughunter

Jan 1, 1970
0
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan said:
One thing I'm confused about, relative to the sizing of the fuses, is
the total draw from the bank. I have my positive lead at one end of
bank and the negative at the other. This puts the total load
eventually going through 1 fuse. Or am I missing something?
Irregardless of the configuration it seems to me that each fuse would
be seeing a different current load.


Lets work from a simple example.. Two 6v batteries in series, paralleled
with another
two in series. Hope this text drawing is ledgable.. (if not try fixed font)

(+)--------------fuse (1)------------(+)------------------(+)
| |
| |
6v (battery A) 6v (battery C)
220 amp hr 220 amp hr
battery battery
| |
| |
(-) (-)
| series string A | series string B
| |
LOAD (12v)
(+) (+)
| |
| |
6v (battery B) 6v (battery D)
220 amp hr 220 amp hr
battery battery
| |
| |
(-)-----------------------------------(-)------------------(-)

It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current
supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through
Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle
2/3 of the current (I'm still speculating)

If battery A shorts a two plates, it then produces 10V. Series String B will
still be at 12v
and try and backdrive string a with 2v. But what will the current be? It
would seem
to be dependent upon the internal resistance of string A. I don't know how
you determine
the internal resistance of a battery. I suspect there is some rule of thumb
based on
chemistry. I've never seen it mentioned in the limited specs provided by
manufacturers, so
maybe it is implicit.

Bug
 
C

'Captain' Kirk DeHaan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Lets work from a simple example.. Two 6v batteries in series, paralleled
with another
two in series. Hope this text drawing is ledgable.. (if not try fixed font)

(+)--------------fuse (1)------------(+)------------------(+)
| |
| |
6v (battery A) 6v (battery C)
220 amp hr 220 amp hr
battery battery
| |
| |
(-) (-)
| series string A | series string B
| |
LOAD (12v)
(+) (+)
| |
| |
6v (battery B) 6v (battery D)
220 amp hr 220 amp hr
battery battery
| |
| |
(-)-----------------------------------(-)------------------(-)

It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current
supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through
Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle
2/3 of the current (I'm still speculating)

If battery A shorts a two plates, it then produces 10V. Series String B will
still be at 12v
and try and backdrive string a with 2v. But what will the current be? It
would seem
to be dependent upon the internal resistance of string A. I don't know how
you determine
the internal resistance of a battery. I suspect there is some rule of thumb
based on
chemistry. I've never seen it mentioned in the limited specs provided by
manufacturers, so
maybe it is implicit.

Bug

I was thinking a bit differently but I see the point here. Fusing
between the series pairs would drop those batteries out if the fuse
popped. Is this correct? If so this is the simplest method. But
again what value fuse to use? But if the battery, in the series pair,
before the fuse was to short will the fuse still pop? Isn't the
current being converted to heat in that battery instead of passing
through the fuse? Been too long since I've had to use any electronics
theory.

My thought was fusing the parallel connections. In this case the
fuses would see different current loads but would still leave the
series pair vulnerable.

I'm running 8 L16's in series parallel so the current through the fuse
closet to the load connection could be quite a lot. I've already got
a 400 amp T fuse for the total load but that doesn't protect the
batteries in a situation like mine.



Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly

www.sandpoint.net/captkirk
www.stormyacres.com
 
E

Ecnerwal

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bughunter said:
It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current
supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through
Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle
2/3 of the current (I'm still speculating)

Depends on how you connect it. The way I'd connect it, each would only
need to carry 1/3 of the 3-parallel battery bank.

A smaller diagram:

+out
+++F+++++++++F++++
+ + +
B1 B2 B3
- - -
------------------
-out

But that would allow B2 to get fried by B1 and B3 acting together (ie,
B1 or B 3 shorting would be limited to F amps, but B2 shorting could get
2F amps), so the following would be better, and scales to as many
parallel strings as you have:

+out
++++++++++++++++++
F F F
+ + +
B1 B2 B3
- - -
------------------
-out

In actual point of fact, some sort of thermal cutout which sensed
battery temprature might be a good plan, as well as the current limiting
of the fuses, but it can get quite complicated/expensive and could also
be inefficient. Temperature monitoring of the batteries and high
temperature alarms are probably well worthwhile, especially given cheap
temperature sensing devices. It argues in favor of fewer parallel
strings of larger batteries.
 
Top