Ethics of buying electronic modules from Chinese sites?

[TCSC47]

Before this string becomes too much for the moderators and it is closed down, I would like to say that I have skin in the game here. Way back in 1970, my first job here in the UK after my training was designing parts of the sonar systems of the new generation of hunter killer subs. I had been brought up in a family, with deep roots in the armed services, to value our nation and its standards (and to the most part I still do). So I considered it was morally acceptable to develop weapons systems for the British Royal Navy.

However the sonar system I was working on was in competition with another company which proceeded to win the contract. We were expecting redundancies until, low and behold, we sold our sonar system to China! I couldn't believe it! It is one thing for me to accept I am designing weaponry to defend what we think is important but totally another thing to be responsible for arming anybody else in the world.
At the time, of course China was assisting in, as the Vietnamese call it, "The American War", and we call it "The Vietnam War" -- and we were selling them weapons!?

The UK was not involved ostensibly in fighting in the war, but there were links with the USA (par for the course) but to me it was the fact that I believed I was doing one thing but in reality I was doing something else. So when ever I think about China I am reminded of this time of my life.

Just to add, I have a lot of Chinese friends. Our next door neighbours are first and second generations from Hong Kong (which the UK let down badly) and I also worked with a post grad engineering group for 5 years which had a number of Chinese students. Lovely bunch but it did seem to me that the Chinese nation was buying in as much technological knowledge as possible.

 

[TCSC47]

Here's a hint.

Government are NOT the good guys.

They may not be as squeaky clean as we would like but they are a lot better than most. Have you seen tanks in the streets of Britain? No.

 

[kellys_eye]

we sold our sonar system to China! I couldn't believe it!

Rather naive of you! Since 'we' designed it 'we' know its limitations and vulnerabilities therefore the system, as it stands, is effectively useless to be used against us.

Have you seen tanks in the streets of Britain? No.

Those 'tanks' are otherwise known as Just Stop Oil protesters.

 

[Delta Prime]

low and behold, we sold our sonar system to China! I couldn't believe it! It is one thing for me to accept I am designing weaponry to defend what we think is important but totally another thing to be responsible for arming anybody else in the world.

Where do you think China got the idea of selling cheap inferior technology to others "your design. ”

raining was designing parts of the sonar systems of the new generation of hunter killer subs

Hunter killer was a submarine class definition not used by the United States military since 1970.(go figure the British royal Navy was using it)
It was called active sonar it provided omnidirectional transmission and reception and is combined with directional by sending and receiving focused sound energy in multiple directions simultaneously in conjunction with high frequency direction finding cryptological intelligence.

believed I was doing one thing but in reality I was doing something else. So when ever I think about China I am reminded of this time of my life

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself you weren't that good.
I mean the company you were involved with was not that good.

 

[shrtrnd]

Well, I thought I was addressing TCSC47's query about the ethics of buying from China.
Kellys-eye's observations are of course a more complete response, encompassing the damnable 'Capitalist', greedy,
business 'ethics' that created the Chicom situation. I also do not blame the ChiComs for using the business 'ethics' of avaricious
'free-trade' Westerners for profit. I look at (as Kellys-eye noted) the ramifications of left-leaning governments self-destructive
policies, enabling the demise of Western countries. Westerners are concerned with short-term profit, and the ChiComs are playing
the long game.
In the end, as I said, I fear the inevitable result of what's going on, is that Westerners are funding their own demise by supplying
the ChiComs with capital to fund their own nefarious undertakings to eliminate Western influence.
I do however dispute Kellys-eye's opinion that what the ChiComs are 'trying' (haven't they already succeeded?) to do undermine the
West is of no concern whatsoever'.
As attributed to (sometimes disputed) Edmund Burke "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
Buying from China because it 'saves money' in the short term, is going to have severe long-term consequences.
Apologies to the faint of heart.

 

[TCSC47]

Well, I thought I was addressing TCSC47's query about the ethics of buying from China.
Kellys-eye's observations are of course a more complete response, encompassing the damnable 'Capitalist', greedy,
business 'ethics' that created the Chicom situation. I also do not blame the ChiComs for using the business 'ethics' of avaricious
'free-trade' Westerners for profit. I look at (as Kellys-eye noted) the ramifications of left-leaning governments self-destructive
policies, enabling the demise of Western countries. Westerners are concerned with short-term profit, and the ChiComs are playing
the long game.
In the end, as I said, I fear the inevitable result of what's going on, is that Westerners are funding their own demise by supplying
the ChiComs with capital to fund their own nefarious undertakings to eliminate Western influence.
I do however dispute Kellys-eye's opinion that what the ChiComs are 'trying' (haven't they already succeeded?) to do undermine the
West is of no concern whatsoever'.
As attributed to (sometimes disputed) Edmund Burke "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
Buying from China because it 'saves money' in the short term, is going to have severe long-term consequences.
Apologies to the faint of heart.

Cheers, shrrnd. This was the discussion I was trying to have. But it is all very interesting to me, never the less.

 

[Delta Prime]

Well that's the British for you.
You guys always fly off the handle... into a great calm.
I love you guys!

 

[kellys_eye]

I do however dispute Kellys-eye's opinion that what the ChiComs are 'trying' (haven't they already succeeded?) to do undermine the
West is of no concern whatsoever'.

To worry about what others are doing and to ignore your own capabilities in preventing that are two different things.

I couldn't care less what the Chinese are doing but I care a LOT about our own Governments non-action or indeed, their collusion in our own downfall as a result of it. Heck, it's not even the actions of the Chinese that are bringing about our potential downfall but the response to such non-events as CO2, climate, immigration, energy, gender etc.

Theoretically it would be easier for us to sort out or own Government than sort out the Chinese Government - don't you think?

 

[shrtrnd]

To Kellys_eye's question. I think 'Theoretically' is THE problem. Not that I disagree with the concept you hold.
From what questionable media coverage I see here in the US, the leaders of Western countries are presently full-bore banding together to create a New World Order of international brotherly love under the theory that their obviously superior intellectual acumen of complete government control over the hoi polloi will empower them to dictate utopia to the unwashed masses.
Here, media, educational institutions, and government support the narrative that only government, THEIR vision of government, see the moral and ethical clarity that individuals should have no right to determine their own destiny. Only the sophisticated, thoughtful visionaries, the 'elite', should dictate that, through fundamental transformation of the ignorant into a more easily managed collective of equally powerless lower-class serfs, beholden to their government for everything.
I therefore doubt it is theoretically easier to change the direction of our own governments with the indoctrination presently spewed by the aforementioned enablers (media, education, and gov't), that pervade our daily lives to support elitist aims.
Rather than have one world ruler as envisioned by Alexander the Great, Julius Ceasar, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan or Hannibal, it would seem supplimenting one monarch with a collaboration of multi-national dictators is more inspiring.
No, the financial support of one country bent on the domination of other countries for whatever selfish theoretical good intention, is the individual's responsibility to prevent, or we will collectively suffer the consequences of slavery to a tyrant cause.
How has George W. Bush's attempt to implement democracy in the Middle East worked-out? Will Communist China's attempt to dominate world order work out better? Who exactly benefits the MOST from government controlled New World Order?
If Communist China undercuts Western society and workers by pricing the West out of business, should individuals freely support that with our own financial backing for short-term gain whenever we have a choice?
Certainly when we have no other choice, we have to do what we have to do. But isn't that the end-game point of what's happening?
To make individuals do what we HAVE to do, as defined by our elitist betters. And/Or in the case of this discussion, HAVING eventually to ONLY be able to buy Communist Chinese products because we will have no choice.

 

[kellys_eye]

No, the financial support of one country bent on the domination of other countries for whatever selfish theoretical good intention, is the individual's responsibility to prevent, or we will collectively suffer the consequences of slavery to a tyrant cause.

This is precisely what the USA has done with the Dollar and precisely why the likes of Putin, Xi and the rest of the BRICS want to see a DIFFERENT world order based on being able to trade in whatever currency you want.

As to the 'individuals responsibility to prevent....' I suspect the American people have just as much success as any other currency (UK Pound, Drachma, Denari, Dinar...whatever) dominant countries population had in curtailing the excesses those currencies caused?

I agree with much of your opening statements re Global Order etc however 'we' have ZERO chance of changing the Rouble or Yuan - look what 'sanctions' have done to Russia!

 

[TCSC47]

As far as data gathering is concerned the Chinese and Russia can't hold a flag to the likes of the NSA, GCHQ, MOSSAD etc. If you don't want your information 'gathered' then don't produce information. Simples!

BTW, Putin has never been a threat to the UK or the West in general. Don't believe the propaganda.

Interesting. What evidence do you have for this belief?

 

[kellys_eye]

Interesting. What evidence do you have for this belief?

I presume you're referring to the Putin bit?

Since the end of WW2 the Russian 'border' (i.e. buffer zone) has been pushed back, further and further towards the Russian homeland and strategic OFFENSIVE deterrents have been situated all along the borders by Western (i.e.USA) forces. Promises of neutrality (NATO application by various countries once deemed neutral) have been broken and the Minsk Agreements need not even be mentioned for their traitorous outcome i.e. Merkel admitting they were a delaying tactic to DELIBERATELY allow time for Ukraine to train/arm for war against Russia. 2014 and the Ukraine attack on the Donbass is evident proof of that.

US military bases are profuse across Europe (name me one Russian one outside Russia?) and the USA have INVADED and ILLEGALLY OCCUPY territory across the Middle East and in other countries across the world. All contrary to UN Law.

Putin/Russia have never established sanctions against the West (not of any consequence - usually only 'personal') nor are they a military or financial threat to the Wests (as per most authorities spouting economic 'facts' and based on military expenditure in comparison to the West/USA).

'All' that Russia has are TRILLIONS of dollars of resources, vast tracts of productive arable land, oil and gas reserves 'for ever' and gold/minerals to supply the world - and that's without exploring much of their more remote lands. They also have a secure and robust economy, solid currency, society not subverted by Western 'trends' etc. What on earth does Russia want with the corrupted, deviant West? Their debt? Their social issues?

What I see are envious, greedy and desperate Western (globalist) figures keen to pillage a prosperous and growing economy as their own economies and currencies collapse due to their own avarice, greed and exploitation.

I fully understand Putin's 'fear' of the West - and when I say 'Putin' I really mean the Russian people - Putin has the support of his public precisely because he considers Russia-first whereas, here in the West, it's 'everyone else first and screw the people'. I bet you can't name ONE Western leader that has the support of more than 20% of their people.

Aggression against Russia is yet another distraction - keep us all in fear of Russia and "Your Government will come to the rescue"..... please. Spare me. We have enough 'trouble' keeping our own economies, borders, energy, elderly etc under control and the fact that we CAN'T control our own socio-economic issues leaves the powers-that-be the use of OTHERS i.e. Russia/Putin to offer as a distraction whilst everything around us collapses into decay and failure.

WE have Governments that refuse to stop illegal immigration - actually encourage it - enforce pathetic and unjustified laws that beggar us all (Green Policies), permit perversions to grow and fester, strip us of our inalienable rights (free speech), promote aggression, devalue all we earn and own, divide the population, promote fake vaccines and ignore the consequences of them, seek to make us all digital slaves, subvert our own laws to Globalist policies and constantly LIE to us over every issue of consequence.

Sure..... Russia 'is the problem'.......

On a lighter note - if you haven't seen/heard of Diana Andukinova (Russian singer) then check her out - astonishing vocals.

 

[Delta Prime]

Cheers, shrrnd. This was the discussion I was trying to have

I thought it was about you being ashamed not being able to sell inferior equipment to your own country.
What you should be ashamed about is dying without winning some small victory for humanity.

 

[TCSC47]

I thought it was about you being ashamed not being able to sell inferior equipment to your own country.
What you should be ashamed about is dying without winning some small victory for humanity.

Oh dear, I really have got up your nose.

 

[Martaine2005]

I presume you're referring to the Putin bit?

Since the end of WW2 the Russian 'border' (i.e. buffer zone) has been pushed back, further and further towards the Russian homeland and strategic OFFENSIVE deterrents have been situated all along the borders by Western (i.e.USA) forces. Promises of neutrality (NATO application by various countries once deemed neutral) have been broken and the Minsk Agreements need not even be mentioned for their traitorous outcome i.e. Merkel admitting they were a delaying tactic to DELIBERATELY allow time for Ukraine to train/arm for war against Russia. 2014 and the Ukraine attack on the Donbass is evident proof of that.

US military bases are profuse across Europe (name me one Russian one outside Russia?) and the USA have INVADED and ILLEGALLY OCCUPY territory across the Middle East and in other countries across the world. All contrary to UN Law.

Putin/Russia have never established sanctions against the West (not of any consequence - usually only 'personal') nor are they a military or financial threat to the Wests (as per most authorities spouting economic 'facts' and based on military expenditure in comparison to the West/USA).

'All' that Russia has are TRILLIONS of dollars of resources, vast tracts of productive arable land, oil and gas reserves 'for ever' and gold/minerals to supply the world - and that's without exploring much of their more remote lands. They also have a secure and robust economy, solid currency, society not subverted by Western 'trends' etc. What on earth does Russia want with the corrupted, deviant West? Their debt? Their social issues?

What I see are envious, greedy and desperate Western (globalist) figures keen to pillage a prosperous and growing economy as their own economies and currencies collapse due to their own avarice, greed and exploitation.

I fully understand Putin's 'fear' of the West - and when I say 'Putin' I really mean the Russian people - Putin has the support of his public precisely because he considers Russia-first whereas, here in the West, it's 'everyone else first and screw the people'. I bet you can't name ONE Western leader that has the support of more than 20% of their people.

Aggression against Russia is yet another distraction - keep us all in fear of Russia and "Your Government will come to the rescue"..... please. Spare me. We have enough 'trouble' keeping our own economies, borders, energy, elderly etc under control and the fact that we CAN'T control our own socio-economic issues leaves the powers-that-be the use of OTHERS i.e. Russia/Putin to offer as a distraction whilst everything around us collapses into decay and failure.

WE have Governments that refuse to stop illegal immigration - actually encourage it - enforce pathetic and unjustified laws that beggar us all (Green Policies), permit perversions to grow and fester, strip us of our inalienable rights (free speech), promote aggression, devalue all we earn and own, divide the population, promote fake vaccines and ignore the consequences of them, seek to make us all digital slaves, subvert our own laws to Globalist policies and constantly LIE to us over every issue of consequence.

Sure..... Russia 'is the problem'.......

On a lighter note - if you haven't seen/heard of Diana Andukinova (Russian singer) then check her out - astonishing vocals.

I agree with every single word.
I’m coming for a curry!

 

[kellys_eye]

I’m coming for a curry!

It's chillie up here!

 

[mineymoe]

Those are some interesting points about buying modules from China. On ethics, getting good deals can foster creativity as long as we're not directly supporting human rights abuses.

Maybe do some research to find reliable sellers. And don't stress too much if some modules sit unused, that's half the fun of exploring new things.

 

[TCSC47]

One of the things I think is skimped on with these modules is that they may not always be fully tested. Contrary to what some one said here, I have had a few non working modules. However, I have had no problems in obtaining replacements. The faulty items were not requested back, so making the process much easier. All I had to do was make a you tube showing it not working and another one was sent.
Also as somebody has said, some of the items are so cheap it is hardly worth the effort to chase up a replacement.
But I have to admit I was really thinking of the ethics here rather than the practicalities and cost.

 

[TCSC47]

I presume you're referring to the Putin bit?

Since the end of WW2 the Russian 'border' (i.e. buffer zone) has been pushed back, further and further towards the Russian homeland and strategic OFFENSIVE deterrents have been situated all along the borders by Western (i.e.USA) forces. Promises of neutrality (NATO application by various countries once deemed neutral) have been broken and the Minsk Agreements need not even be mentioned for their traitorous outcome i.e. Merkel admitting they were a delaying tactic to DELIBERATELY allow time for Ukraine to train/arm for war against Russia. 2014 and the Ukraine attack on the Donbass is evident proof of that.

US military bases are profuse across Europe (name me one Russian one outside Russia?) and the USA have INVADED and ILLEGALLY OCCUPY territory across the Middle East and in other countries across the world. All contrary to UN Law.

Putin/Russia have never established sanctions against the West (not of any consequence - usually only 'personal') nor are they a military or financial threat to the Wests (as per most authorities spouting economic 'facts' and based on military expenditure in comparison to the West/USA).

'All' that Russia has are TRILLIONS of dollars of resources, vast tracts of productive arable land, oil and gas reserves 'for ever' and gold/minerals to supply the world - and that's without exploring much of their more remote lands. They also have a secure and robust economy, solid currency, society not subverted by Western 'trends' etc. What on earth does Russia want with the corrupted, deviant West? Their debt? Their social issues?

What I see are envious, greedy and desperate Western (globalist) figures keen to pillage a prosperous and growing economy as their own economies and currencies collapse due to their own avarice, greed and exploitation.

I fully understand Putin's 'fear' of the West - and when I say 'Putin' I really mean the Russian people - Putin has the support of his public precisely because he considers Russia-first whereas, here in the West, it's 'everyone else first and screw the people'. I bet you can't name ONE Western leader that has the support of more than 20% of their people.

Aggression against Russia is yet another distraction - keep us all in fear of Russia and "Your Government will come to the rescue"..... please. Spare me. We have enough 'trouble' keeping our own economies, borders, energy, elderly etc under control and the fact that we CAN'T control our own socio-economic issues leaves the powers-that-be the use of OTHERS i.e. Russia/Putin to offer as a distraction whilst everything around us collapses into decay and failure.

WE have Governments that refuse to stop illegal immigration - actually encourage it - enforce pathetic and unjustified laws that beggar us all (Green Policies), permit perversions to grow and fester, strip us of our inalienable rights (free speech), promote aggression, devalue all we earn and own, divide the population, promote fake vaccines and ignore the consequences of them, seek to make us all digital slaves, subvert our own laws to Globalist policies and constantly LIE to us over every issue of consequence.

Sure..... Russia 'is the problem'.......

On a lighter note - if you haven't seen/heard of Diana Andukinova (Russian singer) then check her out - astonishing vocals.

I asked for evidence, not a tirade of opinions. References please.

 

[kellys_eye]

I asked for evidence, not a tirade of opinions. References please.

Unless you can refute anything I posted I'm not going to do your research for you.

Your head-in-the-sand attitude is typical of many who blindly accept the narrative of 'official' information sources. As someone once said, "the truth is out there" - all you have to do is look for it.

But people are lazy - I am too when it's convenient - but when it's important I take the time, make the effort and derive my own conclusion from the evidence I read. Try it some time.