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What's a GOOD color, low cost, flat panel TV ...reliably work for awhile?

R

RobertMacy

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's that time of year again. I need a flat panel TV, simple HDMI
interface.

somewhere between the 42 inch to 50+ inch size.

Would like GOOD color, and reliable operation - getting tired of
'throw-away' technology and would like to use for a while, or at least
count on being able to use it for awhile.

What Manufacturer? What Model? Where to buy?

Anybody know, or has built up, some experience with these things, and can
recommend a TV?
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
RobertMacy said:
It's that time of year again. I need a flat panel TV, simple HDMI
interface.

somewhere between the 42 inch to 50+ inch size.

Would like GOOD color, and reliable operation - getting tired of
'throw-away' technology and would like to use for a while, or at least
count on being able to use it for awhile.

What Manufacturer? What Model? Where to buy?

Anybody know, or has built up, some experience with these things, and
can recommend a TV?

We bought a Vizio many years ago. Works flawlessly, great picture,
decent price. It's 37" but that was because it's sufficient for us and
we wanted it in a space where there wouldn't have been much more room
for a larger TV. Neighbors then bought a much bigger version of this TV,
also happy.
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Robert,

It's that time of year again. I need a flat panel TV, simple HDMI
interface.

somewhere between the 42 inch to 50+ inch size.

Would like GOOD color, and reliable operation - getting tired of
'throw-away' technology and would like to use for a while, or at least
count on being able to use it for awhile.

What Manufacturer? What Model? Where to buy?

Anybody know, or has built up, some experience with these things, and
can recommend a TV?

One of my volunteer gigs I dealt with a lot of "scrapped"
electronics. Saw *lots* of Vizio's and a few Samsungs.
But, that doesn't let you draw any real conclusions:
- are there a lot of them because they are the most common brand?
- are there a lot of them because they are the *cheapest* offering?
- etc.

I really like plasma technology when it comes to viewability.
But, big power hogs and have lots of special magnetics (and
associated drivers) making them harder to maintain. Probably
also more expensive to manufacture?

[I.e., this seems to be an "obsolescent" technology -- though
that could just be because The Market is driven by folks looking
for "cheap product"]

Have you considered *reading* as a possible alternative source of
entertainment? ;-)
 
I would go maube with Hitachi, but for only one reason. They support independent servicers to soem extent. Their technical website is free fro any shop, not just ASCs. I know of no other manufactuirer that does that.

I don't believe there is a big difference in reliability across the variuous brands anymore, which means logically one would do well to focus on servicability.
 
R

rickman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Robert,



One of my volunteer gigs I dealt with a lot of "scrapped"
electronics. Saw *lots* of Vizio's and a few Samsungs.
But, that doesn't let you draw any real conclusions:
- are there a lot of them because they are the most common brand?
- are there a lot of them because they are the *cheapest* offering?
- etc.

I really like plasma technology when it comes to viewability.
But, big power hogs and have lots of special magnetics (and
associated drivers) making them harder to maintain. Probably
also more expensive to manufacture?

You shouldn't try to draw conclusions from so little information. My
brother has a huge plasma TV he got some 6 years ago. I had heard that
plasma loses its brightness over time. This TV is working just fine
after many, many hours of operation. Plasma is actually less expensive
these days because the LED lit LCD displays have better brightness and
most people prefer the picture. So you *have* to have a lower price to
sell a plasma set.

[I.e., this seems to be an "obsolescent" technology -- though
that could just be because The Market is driven by folks looking
for "cheap product"]

No, plasma just isn't capable of being as bright. People prefer a nice,
bright display.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Mis-remembered. The JVC is the 19" flat-screen in my office... the
one I've complained of "popping noise".

In the family room we have a Phillips 55" (55PFL4706_F7)... that's the
one that sometimes balks at the cable box, because the cable box
doesn't do a proper CEC handshake.

I bought a little 19" flat screen way back when. Brought it back because
of lousy image quality. Bought an Insignia instead, much better. It's
quite sad to see how discount brands eat the lunch of the old
bellwethers. But that process already began over 30 years ago.
 
We bought a Vizio many years ago. Works flawlessly, great picture,
decent price. It's 37" but that was because it's sufficient for us and
we wanted it in a space where there wouldn't have been much more room
for a larger TV. Neighbors then bought a much bigger version of this TV,
also happy.

Of course it "works flawlessly", Joerg. You never turn it on! ;-)

We have had a Panasonic 42" Plasma TV for five years or so. It failed
(power supply) after two years but they covered it, fully, under
warranty, even though it was a year beyond the warranty. They had to
send a tech about 100mi, too. I bought another a couple of years ago.
No issues.
 
Hi Robert,



One of my volunteer gigs I dealt with a lot of "scrapped"
electronics. Saw *lots* of Vizio's and a few Samsungs.
But, that doesn't let you draw any real conclusions:
- are there a lot of them because they are the most common brand?
- are there a lot of them because they are the *cheapest* offering?
- etc.

I really like plasma technology when it comes to viewability.
But, big power hogs and have lots of special magnetics (and
associated drivers) making them harder to maintain. Probably
also more expensive to manufacture?

They're not so much of a power hog anymore. My first Panasonic ('07)
consumed around 500W. The similar '12 model is under 150W. Both 42".
[I.e., this seems to be an "obsolescent" technology -- though
that could just be because The Market is driven by folks looking
for "cheap product"]

That's a lot of it. LED has improved things a lot but I still prefer
the contrast of the plasma TVs.
Have you considered *reading* as a possible alternative source of
entertainment? ;-)

Reading? ;-) (finally getting around to The Fountainhead - my second
vacation-book).
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Of course it "works flawlessly", Joerg. You never turn it on! ;-)

Actually, since this dreaded transition to DTV it runs a lot. Reason is
that we love old movies. Since those air during the day we tape them but
my wife has to leave the TV running. It can be seen from the kitchen and
that way she can see when a station pixelates out again, abort the
recording, and program for the next time it airs. Often takes 3-4 attempts.

We have had a Panasonic 42" Plasma TV for five years or so. It failed
(power supply) after two years but they covered it, fully, under
warranty, even though it was a year beyond the warranty. They had to
send a tech about 100mi, too. I bought another a couple of years ago.
No issues.


Some brands had major issues. For Samsung there are even several
releases of aftermarket "re-capping kits" because they screwed up with
the electrolytics. I like their netbooks, got one, but personally I
would not buy a TV from them.
 
T

T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Of course it "works flawlessly", Joerg. You never turn it on! ;-)

We have had a Panasonic 42" Plasma TV for five years or so. It failed
(power supply) after two years but they covered it, fully, under
warranty, even though it was a year beyond the warranty. They had to
send a tech about 100mi, too. I bought another a couple of years ago.
No issues.

Yeah - power supplies and more specifically cheap ass capacitors seem to
be the biggest failure mode in all TV's these days, doesn't matter if
it's plasma or LCD.

I've got an Element ELCHW402 that lasted 18 months and the power supply
went. Found a replacement board for $40 and snapped it in and it's been
working fine ever since.
 
R

RobertMacy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeah - power supplies and more specifically cheap ass capacitors seem to
be the biggest failure mode in all TV's these days, doesn't matter if
it's plasma or LCD.

I've got an Element ELCHW402 that lasted 18 months and the power supply
went. Found a replacement board for $40 and snapped it in and it's been
working fine ever since.

from Walmart on 9/20/2011 bought a 41 inch
Element Electronics ELGFT401 $369.98, just as Element had gone through
bankruptcy, too.

Works, ok, but now it has started acting 'funky' at turn on.

If HOT, continues to work. If COLD, has difficulty coming on. Screen comes
up, sometimes, then light green frizzle, turn OFF turn ON and somtimes
'catches' or, somteimes doesn't and frizzles again adn again, or sometimes
solid black screen, or sometimes solid light blue screen, or....
yesterday had to turn on and off over a period of something like half an
hour, until got hot enough to stay on. Was so bad this time that the
remote control failed, had to unplug and replug in to solve that one.

I first thought of bad caps, but why would that work best after heating
up? Or, is that the way they work? esr high when cold and low when hot.
Cold caps not good, hot caps good?

I thought at first it was the lead-free solder causing a problem. When
cold, the parts shrink and lose contact; when hot, they expand and make
good contact.

Any experience you guys?
 
M

Martin Riddle

Jan 1, 1970
0
RobertMacy said:
It's that time of year again. I need a flat panel TV, simple HDMI
interface.

somewhere between the 42 inch to 50+ inch size.

Would like GOOD color, and reliable operation - getting tired of
'throw-away' technology and would like to use for a while, or at least
count on being able to use it for awhile.

What Manufacturer? What Model? Where to buy?

Anybody know, or has built up, some experience with these things, and
can recommend a TV?

I hear the Panasonic Vero IPS tv's are good in well lit rooms.

Cheers
 
R

RobertMacy

Jan 1, 1970
0
...snip...
Have you considered *reading* as a possible alternative source of
entertainment? ;-)

I didn't read until about 8 years old and have never quite got the hang of
it yet.

Or, like the phrase, "Why Johnny Can't Read, now in VHS!"

I suppose that phrase should be updated to become, "Why Johnny Can't Read,
now on Blue-Ray!"
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Robert,

I didn't read until about 8 years old and have never quite got the hang
of it yet.

(sigh) I *really* enjoy reading and try to get about 500pp of
"leisure" reading in, each week. Thankfully, I am nearsighted (?)
so reading hasn't suffered with age.

Worst part about reading is getting to the "end" -- only to discover
there's another *volume* (and, that it is not yet in print!! :< )
Or, like the phrase, "Why Johnny Can't Read, now in VHS!"

I suppose that phrase should be updated to become, "Why Johnny Can't
Read, now on Blue-Ray!"

I find I *listen* to TV (more accurately, "DVD movies") more than
I watch it. Relying on my memory of particular movies or shows
to fill in the visual imagery in my head (while my eyes are busy
typing something or reading something). As such, it would be
tempting to just wire an audio amp to the DVD player and leave
the TV, off.

OTOH, there are times when I hear something and want to look
to see what's going on, etc. Or, classic shows that I simply
*must* sit and watch as the imagery is the most entertaining
aspect!
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
You shouldn't try to draw conclusions from so little information. My

How can you conclude "so little information"?

As to failures, of ~60 dead "big screen" TVs (I only look at things
larger than 40" as most smaller sets are "cheap"), ignoring projection,
I'd say ~40 were Vizio, 12 Samsung and the rest "onesies". What that
says about failure *rates* I have no idea -- as I indicated above
(it could be that Vizio has 99.3% of the market so seeing 66% of
them in the failure population could say *good* things about them!)

Plasmas *do* have lots of special magnetics. Far more than an LCD or
LED set. And, these are often only available from the manufacturer or
as "pulls" from other sets (um, if it failed in THIS set, what sort
of confidence do you have that a pull from some other AGED set will
last much longer?)

They *do* draw a lot of power -- for a given size.

And, sell price bears no relationship to "cost to manufacture".
If demand is down, price might be lowered but that doesn't
imply *cost* is lowered. The opposite may, in fact, be true.

The biggest USE downside to plasma is burn-in (and weight).
brother has a huge plasma TV he got some 6 years ago. I had heard that
plasma loses its brightness over time. This TV is working just fine
after many, many hours of operation. Plasma is actually less expensive
these days because the LED lit LCD displays have better brightness and
most people prefer the picture. So you *have* to have a lower price to
sell a plasma set.
[I.e., this seems to be an "obsolescent" technology -- though
that could just be because The Market is driven by folks looking
for "cheap product"]

No, plasma just isn't capable of being as bright. People prefer a nice,
bright display.

*We* apparently don't. :> Nor are we keen on dedicating a whole
wall to a "boob tube". E.g., I have a couple of projectors that
could easily throw a 6-10 ft image. But, no desire for that sort
of "domination" of the room. OTOH, I *would* like to explore
using projection with a retractable screen (to get yet another
big piece of kit out of the living room!)

I rescue (personally) probably one "big screen" TV every two months.
Once folks know you can fix things, you tend to find lots of stuff
dumped on your doorstep (easier to bring it to Don than to haul
it to the hazardous waste site!).

I don't mind as I see these as "distractions". *And*, things that
I don't have any "skin in the game" -- if I can't fix it, it was
garbage anyway! Some are delightful "teasers" (I've a small LCD
that likes to blow a fuse. Yet, takes a very long time to do
so and, if you probe the circuit, you'll see it is operating well
below the rating of the fuse. As we don't *need* that set, there's
no incentive to make time to fix it. Yet, no desire to dispose of
a perfectly good *puzzle*!)

Each time I fix a set, we set it up and decide if we would like
to "upgrade" (or downgrade or whatever) to this "new" set. So
far, we've stuck with the old plasma set -- finding the picture
"warmer" (though not using that term in the color temperature
sense). So, the "new" set gets put aside until someone's kid
is moving off to college or "first apartment" etc.

We probably spend more time "watching" the small set in the kitchen
than anywhere else. Not much else you can do *while* eating :>
 
R

rickman

Jan 1, 1970
0
How can you conclude "so little information"?

You state one data point, something about "magnetics" causing a high
price. Plasma sets are *cheaper* than LED lit LCD displays... if you
actually look at prices rather than trying to guesstimate it from
limited technical knowledge.

And, sell price bears no relationship to "cost to manufacture".
If demand is down, price might be lowered but that doesn't
imply *cost* is lowered. The opposite may, in fact, be true.

You are right, cost is not the same as price... who cares about cost? I
care about price. If they really cost more to make though, they likely
would already be off the market. Why sell an inferior product for a
lower profit margin?

[I.e., this seems to be an "obsolescent" technology -- though
that could just be because The Market is driven by folks looking
for "cheap product"]

No, plasma just isn't capable of being as bright. People prefer a nice,
bright display.

*We* apparently don't.

Yes, well you don't determine the market. The rest of the world has a
clear preference for LED lit LCD displays which is why so few plasma
sets are still in the stores.
 
LED displays are far from perfect:
<http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1362457985>
I'm ok, but my neighbor gets headaches watching her new LED edge
lighted TV. No problems with her previous CCFL backlighting.

Interesting. I've never had problems with an LCD screen but often had
serious problems looking at CRTs. Unless the refresh rate was above
70ish Hz they made my physically ill. I couldn't stand to have a 60Hz
monitor anywhere within sight.
When you're done with The Fountainhead, I recommend Altas Shrugged.

I probably will, sometime. I wanted to do them "in order". I ran
across the book in an airport (used) bookstore, so snatched it up for
beach reading. ;-)

I've seen the Shrugged movies, so far, which tends to ruin books for
me (not so much the other way around). We'll see.
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeah - power supplies and more specifically cheap ass capacitors seem to
be the biggest failure mode in all TV's these days, doesn't matter if
it's plasma or LCD.

IME, caps, drive fets and, sometimes, cold solder connections
(esp on things like transformers/coils).

Having a programmable multi-output lab supply on hand can make
it easy to decide if it's even *worth* fixing many devices
(e.g., discover the screen has been "invisibly damaged")
I've got an Element ELCHW402 that lasted 18 months and the power supply
went. Found a replacement board for $40 and snapped it in and it's been
working fine ever since.

If you look, carefully, at the boards, you'll often see devices are
not derated adequately. I've encountered several "disposable"
devices wherein the components were actually *under* spec -- e.g.,
10V caps on 12V supplies. Works OK... for a while. A *short*
while! :-/

When recapping, always opt for 105C, ~5000hr parts (assuming you want
to keep the device and not have to repeat the exercise, again!)
 
"because the LED lit LCD displays have better brightness and
most people prefer the picture."

The one thing about plasmas is the viewing angle. The LCD sets vary in that, but like the old rear projos they are getting better.

There are also some people who cannot stand LCD. For some reason they will prefer the plasma, perhaps because it is the old familiar phosphor.

I have also seen abberations in LCDs like what could be termed "overtwist".Sure some of them clip whites more than I (and many) prefer, but some not only clip blacks, they invert them below a certain IRE. What's more, even if most normal images look fine at a wide viewing angle, the overtwist abberation can vary considerably at different angles.
 
R

RobertMacy

Jan 1, 1970
0
There are re-capping kits for just about every brand and mutation of
LCD monitor and TV. On eBay, there are listings for:
Samsung capacitor kit 555
LG capacitor kit 183
Vizio capacitor kit 31
Sony capacitor kit 8
Panasonic capacitor kit 6
Sharp capacitor kit 3
Hmmm... you might be right about Samsung.

Or, Samsung 'admits' it better than others?

Is there a 'recapping kit' for my Element?
Element Electronics ELGFT401
 
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