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ultra low power 433MHz detector?

B

blisca

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello

Is there any circuit able to wakeup a microcontroller when detecting the
presence of a 433 MHz-0dbm in a tenth of meters(32 ft) with very low power
consumption(Max 2uA)?The antenna should be an inexpensive wire or PCB
I think to something using a parallell LC and some depletion FET,but before
spending time in measurement i would ask your halp to start in the right
direction

Many thanks,Diego.
 
W

Wimpie

Jan 1, 1970
0
El 17-12-13 13:40, blisca escribió:
Hello

Is there any circuit able to wakeup a microcontroller when detecting the
presence of a 433 MHz-0dbm in a tenth of meters(32 ft) with very low power
consumption(Max 2uA)?The antenna should be an inexpensive wire or PCB
I think to something using a parallell LC and some depletion FET,but before
spending time in measurement i would ask your halp to start in the right
direction

Many thanks,Diego.
If you can't use power reduction by using on/off cycling, it will be
hard to do.

The received power will be in the 30nW range (optimum antenna
orientation and good RX antenna). In real world it will be well below
this level.

With a LC resonator you can convert this 30nW to say 10 kOhms
resulting in about 25mVp RF. When using a real microwave schottky
diode, this would result in around 5..20 mV rectified EMF.

Note that when you lose 6 dB received power, the output voltage will
drop with 12 dB. If your application requires detection of moving
transmitters (or the receiver is moving), you may get some
constructive interference helping you. In case of a stationary setup,
passive detection will not give you reasonable reliability as the
antenna may be in a notch due to multi path effects.

The low power amplifier should be able to detect voltage levels of
some mV, and should have relative high input impedance 100k..1MOhm to
get most of the diode EMF at the input of the amplifier.

You can use more resonance to get higher impedance (hence RF voltage
across a micrwave diode), but for example temperature effects (think
of diode capacitance) and mechanical size will put a limit on the
maximum Q-factor.

A diode voltage doubling circuit will very likely not help you in
combination with high Q factor RF input circuitry.

You may lose significant power if you don't have sufficient space to
construct your resonanting antenna.

In one sentence: It isn't impossible from a theoretical standpont of
view, but practicallhy spoken it depends on many other factors.
 
B

blisca

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wimpie said:
El 17-12-13 13:40, blisca escribió:
If you can't use power reduction by using on/off cycling, it will be hard
to do.

The received power will be in the 30nW range (optimum antenna orientation
and good RX antenna). In real world it will be well below this level.

With a LC resonator you can convert this 30nW to say 10 kOhms resulting in
about 25mVp RF. When using a real microwave schottky diode, this would
result in around 5..20 mV rectified EMF.

The low power amplifier should be able to detect voltage levels of some
mV, and should have relative high input impedance 100k..1MOhm to get most
of the diode EMF at the input of the amplifier.

You can use more resonance to get higher impedance (hence RF voltage
across a micrwave diode), but for example temperature effects (think of
diode capacitance) and mechanical size will put a limit on the maximum
Q-factor.

A diode voltage doubling circuit will very likely not help you in
combination with high Q factor RF input circuitry.

You may lose significant power if you don't have sufficient space to
construct your resonanting antenna.

In one sentence: It isn't impossible from a theoretical standpont of view,
but practicallhy spoken it depends on many other factors.

Thank you for your accurate and realistic point of view.
At least now i know that it is not easy at all,and this will avoid me to
wasting time, trying to obtain state of art performances ,relying on my very
basic skills.
Many thanks
Diego
 
Hello

Is there any circuit able to wakeup a microcontroller when detecting the
presence of a 433 MHz-0dbm in a tenth of meters(32 ft) with very low power
consumption(Max 2uA)?The antenna should be an inexpensive wire or PCB

I think to something using a parallell LC and some depletion FET,but before
spending time in measurement i would ask your halp to start in the right
direction
Many thanks,Diego.

There was an application circuit that did exactly that, a
design idea in one of the electronic magazines IIRC. I
vaguely recall it used a resonant antenna loop, a schottky
diode detector, then a (Maxim?) ultra-low power comparator.

HTH,

James Arthur
 
R

Rune

Jan 1, 1970
0
blisca said:
Hello

Is there any circuit able to wakeup a microcontroller when detecting the
presence of a 433 MHz-0dbm in a tenth of meters(32 ft) with very low power
consumption(Max 2uA)?The antenna should be an inexpensive wire or PCB
I think to something using a parallell LC and some depletion FET,but before
spending time in measurement i would ask your halp to start in the right
direction

Many thanks,Diego.

Have a look at the design of the dsrc tolling tags you put on the
cars front window.

Br,
Rune


--
 
El 17-12-13 13:40, blisca escribió:
If you can't use power reduction by using on/off cycling, it will be
hard to do.

The received power will be in the 30nW range (optimum antenna
orientation and good RX antenna). In real world it will be well below
this level.

With a LC resonator you can convert this 30nW to say 10 kOhms
resulting in about 25mVp RF. When using a real microwave schottky
diode, this would result in around 5..20 mV rectified EMF.

The Q of a small resonator is not very good, so you are going to get a
lot of false triggerings from nearby transmitters, such as amateur
radio transmitters in the 3-100 W power range, which is located at or
within a few hundred kilohertz from your 433.920 MHz nominal
frequency.
 
W

whit3rd

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is there any circuit able to wakeup a microcontroller when detecting the

presence of a 433 MHz-0dbm in a tenth of meters(32 ft) with very low power

consumption(Max 2uA)?

This sounds like a remote-doorbell kind of receiver; it ought to be
possible with discrete components (or with ICs, if you can spend long times
in sleep mode, and wake with a 50 uA budget for a few milliseconds).
Disambiguating a real signal from noise is likely to be more easy if you
modulate the trigger signal, and maybe the microcontroller can decide
if the modulation is right, or if it should just go back to sleep...
 
B

blisca

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Q of a small resonator is not very good, so you are going to get a
lot of false triggerings from nearby transmitters, such as amateur
radio transmitters in the 3-100 W power range, which is located at or
within a few hundred kilohertz from your 433.920 MHz nominal
frequency.

...thanks,upsidedown
i was not considering this even worst case
 
B

blisca

Jan 1, 1970
0
thanks for all your answers
I tried unsuccessfully to find that design idea that dagmar was talking of
This sounds like a remote-doorbell kind of receiver; it ought to be
possible with discrete components (or with ICs, if you can spend long
times
in sleep mode, and wake with a 50 uA budget for a few milliseconds).
Disambiguating a real signal from noise is likely to be more easy if you
modulate the trigger signal, and maybe the microcontroller can decide
if the modulation is right, or if it should just go back to sleep...

yes,it is something like this,the receiver waits for the closeness of the
Tx,the 433 MHz is OOK modulated(i forgot to say it,sorry),the detector
should wake the ic able to detect pramble,sync word etc.,it is a well known
CC1101,that draws 15 20 mA when activated in Rx.
It has a mode called Wake On Radio,that draws "only" 8 uA,I stil don't
understand if in this mode it can detect a preamble and then turn RX fully
on,anyway 8 uA are a bit too much for the battery it should mount
 
W

Wimpie

Jan 1, 1970
0
El 18-12-13 20:29, blisca escribió:
Thank you ,
this is described precisely,so that i can build something similiar to test
it
Are you sure you only want to detect devices that have amplitude
modulation? The solution in the article is for AM (there is capacitor
in series with the 1kOhm resistor).

Other thing, I don't believe the 1:2 autotransformer as with -65 dBm
input, this would generate just some uV and then the gain of the opamp
stage is too low (1000) to wake-up the uC. You need the resonance
(increase of sensitivity and out of band rejection).

You can be happy that you may have some more input power. Your design
challence will be in the RF parts left of the schottky detector. use
a real microwave diode (such as BAT 15), not a hybrd (guard ring)
schottky rectifier.

Can you accept false-alarms as mentioned by others (due to strong near
or in band transmissions)?
 
M

Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.

Jan 1, 1970
0
yes,it is something like this,the receiver waits for the closeness of the
Tx,the 433 MHz is OOK modulated(i forgot to say it,sorry),the detector
should wake the ic able to detect pramble,sync word etc.,it is a well known
CC1101,that draws 15 20 mA when activated in Rx.
It has a mode called Wake On Radio,that draws "only" 8 uA,I stil don't
understand if in this mode it can detect a preamble and then turn RX fully
on,anyway 8 uA are a bit too much for the battery it should mount

http://www.high-voltage-lab.com/105/economy-radar-detector

Study that idea. I've used that idea with different op-amps
and it works.

You could experiment a bit with the 433Mhz.

Jamie
 
..thanks,upsidedown
i was not considering this even worst case

If you are going to transfer some information (such as a device ID)
across your link, you need to consider also blocking issues with such
simple receivers.

We have a club building on top of a hill with a 434 MHz 30 W repeater
on the roof. We had problems with illegally parked cars outside the
building. One way to scare these cars away was to look when the car
owner approached his car, was to fire up the transmitter and the car
owner tried frantically to open the car doors with his key transmitter
at 433.92 MHz. The receiver in the car had so bad selectivity, that it
was completely blocked by the strong signal nearly 1 MHz away.

If you are going to use some simple LC front head for RF detection,
you need much more selectivity for any actual data extraction to
reliably work in the RF polluted world.

I would suggest using a proper receiver with passive LC front end and
proper IF filtering or zero-IF (I/Q) system which is activated for
very short periods of time. Here is the critical issue, how fast will
the local oscillator start. Some PLL constructs are notoriously (1 s)
slow to stabilize, forcing to use very long activation periods and
hence large average consumption.

However, if the crystal oscillator and some DDS construct starts in
less than 1 ms, you should be able to power up the receiver for 1 ms
every 1 s, the duty cycle is 1:1000, compensating for the high current
consumption of a decent receiver. You may have to take the RF-sense
after some 16 kHz FM filters, if you are going to use only 1 ms
sampling periods, even if you use 100Hz final filters for data
extraction when the RF appears to be strong and hence constantly turn
on the receiver.
 
B

blisca

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wimpie said:
El 18-12-13 20:29, blisca escribió:
Are you sure you only want to detect devices that have amplitude
modulation? The solution in the article is for AM (there is capacitor in
series with the 1kOhm resistor).

Other thing, I don't believe the 1:2 autotransformer as with -65 dBm
input, this would generate just some uV and then the gain of the opamp
stage is too low (1000) to wake-up the uC. You need the resonance
(increase of sensitivity and out of band rejection).

You can be happy that you may have some more input power. Your design
challence will be in the RF parts left of the schottky detector. use a
real microwave diode (such as BAT 15), not a hybrd (guard ring) schottky
rectifier.

Can you accept false-alarms as mentioned by others (due to strong near or
in band transmissions)?

Thanks once more for the hints
i think that i can accept false alarms,this circuit,while receiving a
preamble should only wake up a microntroller and a receiver IC,
I can decide the preamble elngth, hopefully i should have anough time to
syncronize on the remaining pramble and to detect the sync word,in case of
false alarm wasted power would be the only damage .
Of course if the circuit will not be able,in the worst case, to discriminate
powerful and close radio ham Tx,the consumption due to false alarms would be
an issue
Now i'm not able to predict
 
B

blisca

Jan 1, 1970
0
piglet said:
Sorry to join this a bit late. Have a look at this:

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/lt-journal/LTC1540_0298_Mag.pdf

It is similar to the CargoNet idea posted elsewhere.

Thank you,
another simple and interesting circuit tha i could arrange in one hour or
less
i've used the LTC1540 in a previous project(audio detection)and it worked
fine,i should have one right here

I' let you know about the results
Thanks once more
 
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