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Rossi cold fusion device appearing less and less like a scam....

S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Article and interview 21 July 2011:

Check it out:

http://pesn.com/2011/07/21/9501874_Rossis_Self_Sustaining_One_Megawatt_Reactor

I have been following this for about a year, appears to be a very simple
device, table top size.

Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has
determined optimum nickle granular size)

Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.

Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.

Two pumps, one for hydrogen one for water.

Water converted to steam (is a steam generator)

Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.

Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.

Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks
have been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)

Has a hypothesis of how it works using conventional physics, basically
fusion of nickle/hydrogen producing copper. (copper has been found in
nickle after running)

Claims has had a generator running for over a year.

Gamma radiation detected while running, no radiation detected after 20
minutes being turned off.

Has been examined by reputable physicists and no external energy inputs
discovered, except for initial trigger energy/pumps (three hundred watt
constant input, kw's in thermal energy, constant output).

Another company has claimed they have built their own (different....???)
device using nickle/hydrogen, seems to verify rossi's claims.

have fun.....sno














--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
T

Tom Potter

Jan 1, 1970
0
sno said:
Article and interview 21 July 2011:

Check it out:

http://pesn.com/2011/07/21/9501874_Rossis_Self_Sustaining_One_Megawatt_Reactor

I have been following this for about a year, appears to be a very simple
device, table top size.

Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has determined
optimum nickle granular size)

Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.

Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.

Two pumps, one for hydrogen one for water.

Water converted to steam (is a steam generator)

Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.

Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.

Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks have
been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)

Has a hypothesis of how it works using conventional physics, basically
fusion of nickle/hydrogen producing copper. (copper has been found in
nickle after running)

Claims has had a generator running for over a year.

Gamma radiation detected while running, no radiation detected after 20
minutes being turned off.

Has been examined by reputable physicists and no external energy inputs
discovered, except for initial trigger energy/pumps (three hundred watt
constant input, kw's in thermal energy, constant output).

As you can see from the interview,
Rossi states that a one kilowatt generator would cost $1000.00 to $2000.00,
and that it produces a kilowatt hour for about one cent.

Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator is
$5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.

As there are 8760 hours in a year,
it would take about six years to pay for the generator,
assuming no maintainance or operating costs.

http://pesn.com/2011/07/14/9501869_EV-World_Interviews_Andrea_Rossi/

"H - Exactly. You brought up the issue of... I know people who are in the
energy business will want to add or want to know.. do you have a sense of
what the kilowatt hour cost of a facility will be?

A - One cent.

H - That is not kilowatt hours, that is kilowatts.

A - That is... sorry.. let me correct you. The energy is kilowatts. Kilowatt
is power, so one plant that has a power of one kilowatt is a plant that can
produce up to one kilowatt hour per hour.

H - So typically, when they talk about construction cost of a power plant
they talk about...

A - I said kilowatt. Okay.. so you want to know price per kilowatt. The
price per kilowatt can be one thousand to two thousand dollars."

I wouldn't buy one at that price.

--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://184.105.237.216/~tompotte/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom Potter said:

If this is true maybe someday one of the Nickel Hydride batteries in your
Prius will go critical.
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
As you can see from the interview,
Rossi states that a one kilowatt generator would cost $1000.00 to $2000.00,
and that it produces a kilowatt hour for about one cent.

Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator
is $5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.

As there are 8760 hours in a year,
it would take about six years to pay for the generator,
assuming no maintainance or operating costs.

http://pesn.com/2011/07/14/9501869_EV-World_Interviews_Andrea_Rossi/

"H - Exactly. You brought up the issue of... I know people who are in
the energy business will want to add or want to know.. do you have a
sense of what the kilowatt hour cost of a facility will be?

A - One cent.

H - That is not kilowatt hours, that is kilowatts.

A - That is... sorry.. let me correct you. The energy is kilowatts.
Kilowatt is power, so one plant that has a power of one kilowatt is a
plant that can produce up to one kilowatt hour per hour.

H - So typically, when they talk about construction cost of a power
plant they talk about...

A - I said kilowatt. Okay.. so you want to know price per kilowatt. The
price per kilowatt can be one thousand to two thousand dollars."

I wouldn't buy one at that price.

I agree....however a power company...or a plant that uses steam may
think differently....

Also if steam is run through a turbine, to produce electricity, there
will be about a 50 percent energy loss....which will raise the cost....
however this is a prototype...and there is no telling what other devices
using this principle will cost.....I would guess his guesstimate is high
since he would want to get the most he can from the original devices.....

have fun.....sno

--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
M

Mho

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mention of anything "Bedini" on this website tells me it is a scam, and a
boring old one at that.

Go away with the fantasy from this scam site.

==============

"sno" wrote in message


Article and interview 21 July 2011:
<theoretical garbage snipped>

have fun.....sno
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mention of anything "Bedini" on this website tells me it is a scam, and
a boring old one at that.

Go away with the fantasy from this scam site.

==============

in message


Article and interview 21 July 2011:
<theoretical garbage snipped>

have fun.....sno

You my have not noticed the Bedini speculation was from the writer of
the article....and not from anyone connected with the device...

have fun....sno

--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
If this is true maybe someday one of the Nickel Hydride batteries in your
Prius will go critical.

If this is not a scam then it is more likely people will try to build
one at home, stumble on the correct proportion of hydrogen to nickle
grains causing steam explosions leading to deaths and horrible burns....

(some people probably are already trying)

I wonder if this device is proven, if it will have to be licensed by the
NRC, if it does could be kept out of private individuals hands...as
other nuclear devices are.....

have fun....sno

--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not a problem - the politicos will declare Ni to be a "controlled
substance" (and they'll probably ban Co and Cu, just to be on the safe
side) and appoint a "Ni Czar".

The knights who say "Ni" will be added to the "no fly" lists. :)

Morris....thanks for the laugh....I needed one....

have fun....sno

--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Morris Dovey said:
...> The knights who say "Ni" will be added to the "no fly" lists. :)

Glad I have a separate keyboard and don't have to clean the coffee out of
the laptop.

jsw
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just added a sketch to that page showing the Ni/H reactor inside the
now well-insulated hot head. This could become interesting... :)

I also am imagining what it could lead to.....since steam can produce
heat - air conditioning - refrigeration - cooking....all power you would
need for house is for pumps - led lights....and for computer....
Would not need a lot of solar power for that....

(am thinking would be better if not converting steam to
electricity...keep thinking of the loss)....unless your mhd comes along...

anyway....have my fingers crossed....for people everywhere...

If is true could really be a world changer....just like start of
mechanical revolution...

Am trying not to be to enthused....I have been following peoples cold
fusion ideas/devices for years......this is the first one have seen get
this far....most the inventors fooled themselves...or were outright scams...

have fun....sno









--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Morris Dovey said:
... There is a danger common to all forms of super-inexpensive power
except solar: over-heating our atmosphere and/or the planetary crust. Even
a fusion reaction that directly produced electricity would be unhealthy
for the planet in the long term.
...
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/

At night the ground radiates away the day's heat into space until the air
temperature nears the dew point and the latent heat of condensation slows
the drop. A clear dry night can easily radiate away 50F.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_climate_of_the_Sahara_desert_at_night

jsw
 
W

Winston

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
At night the ground radiates away the day's heat into space until the air
temperature nears the dew point and the latent heat of condensation slows
the drop. A clear dry night can easily radiate away 50F.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_climate_of_the_Sahara_desert_at_night

One of the projects in my Bucket List is to make a
dew condenser that harvests water at night, using
zero power. Another is the 'deep space ice' experiment.

So many projects, so little time.

--Winston
 
T

Tom Potter

Jan 1, 1970
0
( Maintenance and operating costs would increase the pay out period. )
How much did your last oil or gas furnace cost and how many hours do you
expect it to take to "payback" (if ever)?

I suggest to my pal colin.watters
that before he makes an investment
he should do a discounted rate of return calculation

and if he can do better by investing his money
in securities, real estate, etc.
that he should do so.

To compare investing in a new furnace,
one must consider the savings compounded
over the investment period,
and compare this to other investments available to him.

--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://184.105.237.216/~tompotte/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
 
B

Bob F

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom said:
( Maintenance and operating costs would increase the pay out period. )


I suggest to my pal colin.watters
that before he makes an investment
he should do a discounted rate of return calculation

and if he can do better by investing his money
in securities, real estate, etc.
that he should do so.

To compare investing in a new furnace,
one must consider the savings compounded
over the investment period,
and compare this to other investments available to him.

Right! Real estate and stocks are guaranteed investments you can count on? Some
investments are more solid than others. Some are less so.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Morris Dovey said:
...
I've decided to build some of these little buggers because the materials
cost of a reactor is less than the materials cost of a solar concentrator
and tracker needed to power the engine/generator I've been working on.
FWIW, I'm buying new materials at retail and it appears that the 5kW
reactor cost (which includes the first 4+ continuous years worth of Ni
fuel) will end up being in the neighborhood of US$150 - and the µC
control/logging/recording subsystem will probably cost about that much
more. If I build my own hydrogen generator and am able to use the same µC
to control delivery pressure, that will add a similar cost increment.

I rather like that the only waste products are (non-radioactive) copper
metal and pure oxygen...

I facetiously suggested that NiMH batteries could go critical because they
are essentially what you propose. Nickel powder has been used as a
high-pressure hydrogenation catalyst for a very long time, so it's strange
that no one else noticed this.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/catalysis/introduction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process

BTW nickel and iron are the MOST stable nuclei, the final end result of both
fusion and fission chains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_peak

Some nickel ore contains copper that isn't easily removed, the metal in
coins for example. Finding copper in nickel is no surprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel

This reminds me of Donovan's Electric Banana prank of the 60's that came out
shortly after the discovery that banana peels contain a fire retardant. You
can't dry and smoke them because they don't burn.

jsw
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
There's a lot here that doesn't appear to be well-understood and that
observations made of effects that weren't predicted. This whole scenario
/could/ be a scam - or it might be that Rossi found a "hole" in our
understanding of physics and has managed to exploit it.

I don't really know which, and the only way to know for sure appears to
be building a flexible test apparatus and seeing if his results can be
independently duplicated.

If I can't produce at least a reasonable approximation to his results,
that may not say much either way and the only downside is that I wasted
my own time and money - but if I succeed, then while the physicists
argue about why it works I will have an additional heat source for the
small engine/generator that I want to build.

The filamentary nickel powder is .999 pure before use, so finding
approximately 10% copper and 11% iron in the post-reaction residue would
seem significant - especially so since the reaction vessel was reported
to be stainless steel.

My understanding of stainless is that it is made by adding nickel,
chromium, and sometimes molybdenum to iron. The presence of copper seems
consistent with the described transmutation of nickel, but I'm a bit
puzzled/concerned by that amount of iron. One of the possibilities is
that there may be a fission reaction alongside the fusion reaction.
Another is that transmutation of nickel at the inner surface of the
chamber is producing some kind of a structural degradation of the
reaction chamber wall. Each of these possibilities point to a different
hazard that, if real, we need to know more about.

Finding 10% copper in what started out 99.9% nickel, if not necessarily
surprising, is at least interesting. :)

Nearly all of the on-line articles have been incorporated into (or
referenced in) the Wikipedia article at

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

I'm absolutely dazzled - it would never have occurred to me to smoke a
banana! :-D

I can't believe I missed the wikipedia article....thanks much for the
link......have fun...sno

--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
Morris Dovey said:
Nearly all of the on-line articles have been incorporated into (or
referenced in) the Wikipedia article at

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
If I was hired to fake the Feb 2011 demo I'd swap the faucet handles and
draw the "cooling" water from the hot tap, being careful to measure the
input temperature from cold water initially in the pipe, then quickly
switching the display to the output side. The apparatus itself would
withstand close examination afterwards, but the sink wouldn't.

Chemistry and magic tricks became very close friends thousands of years ago.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistrymagic/Chemistry_Magic_Tricks.htm
I'm absolutely dazzled - it would never have occurred to me to smoke a
banana! :-D
Morris Dovey

Electrical Banana at 2:28 was taken to mean smoking banana peels by the
Beatles hidden-message crowd, despite what he really meant.

I sort of slid into the 1960's art & theatre culture in college after being
asked to build animation equipment for a filmmaker. As his technical
assistant I learned a lot about special effects and illusions.

jsw
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Jan 1, 1970
0
...But regardless, the
plethora of tests point to the impossibility that his demos were
scams. 30cc reactor producing 3W of output for hours... Impossible for
non fusion means.
Marcelo Pacheco - Not a Physicist - Not a scientist

By that logic the plethora of magicians who can pull a coin out of your ear
proves the supernatural.

I don't know if Rossi is real or fake. I merely pointed out that the demo is
extremely easy to rig, by swapping the hot and cold water lines (under the
sink?) so the audience assumes that the reactor heated the water, which
actually was already hot when it entered.

jsw
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
There's only one way to know for sure and, because I already had a solar
project that's also a good mesh with a small reactor, I ordered up a
pound (~0.45kg) of filamentary nickel powder (and have sent a couple
ounces off to a friend in Belgium so he can do independent testing on
his own).

I'm going to try a somewhat different test setup. Rossi wanted steam to
drive turbines - but I just want to heat a gas to between 380-400°C. I'm
planning a barebones reactor tube with everything exposed. There'll be a
hydrogen line connection, a heater connection, and a (probably
non-contact) IR thermal sensor connected to a µC that controls the
pressure of the hydrogen feed, the power to the heater, and a valve that
will allow dumping the gas in the reactor into a vacuum canister (to
remove the air before introducing hydrogen at the initial startup, and
to kill any runaway reactions). The vacuum line will be a 'T' off the
hydrogen feed line.

This morning I ordered a "BeagleBoard" (there's a description at
www.sparkfun.com/products/9444 in case anyone's interested in playing
along) and have been working on programming to control the reactor and
log reactor temperature and all control actions. I think this little µC
is fast enough to shutdown a runaway reactor before it can hurt itself
(or any bystanders)

The only other significance differences in setup: I'm planning to copper
plate the interior of the stainless steel reactor tube, and I'm planning
to do my initial testing with only a gram or two of nickel in the
reactor and work my way up from there.

When I've had time, I've tried to share particulars at

http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion.html

and the project into which the reactor might fit nicely is at

http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/
Morris.....do not understand the copper plating of the reactor tube....???

good luck....have fun.....sno


--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Morris.....do not understand the copper plating of the reactor
tube....???

Rossi provided someone with a sample of his spent fuel. Subsequent
analysis found significant percentages of copper and iron along with the
remaining nickel.

The copper I understand - but there are several possibilities that might
explain the iron, and one of those is that the hydrogen might be
"eating" nickel from the inside of the stainless steel reactor tube from
around the iron, which shows up in the spent fuel residue.

[ One of the other possibilities is that there may be secondary fission
reactions producing iron, but with the apparent lack of any other
isotopes I can't really see that as a probable source. ]

The copper plating on the interior of the reactor is intended as a
non-participating shield for the nickel component of the stainless
steel. It's probably silly of me to take the extra trouble for a
limited-use test apparatus, but I just don't like the idea of a
containment vessel being consumed by the reaction it's supposed to
contain. :)

got it....thanks...makes sense....have fun.....sno


--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
 
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