PV and home automation

Discussion in 'Photovoltaics' started by Dennis, Jan 23, 2005.

  1. Dennis

    Dennis Guest

    Anyone have any experience with grid-tied PV system working in conjunction
    with home automation, in particular power-line carrier types like X-10 and

    I'm wondering what effect the inverter may have on the powerline signals. I
    plan to tie the pv on the utility side of a whole-house signal blocker/phase
    coupler, but am wondering if that filtering is sufficient to give clean
    enough signaling inside the house.

    I figure someone here must have already incorporated both PV and PLC systems
    (or tried to!) and hopefully will be willing to pass on whatever they
    learned from the experience. I'm starting from scratch replacing a house
    that burned, so at this point can be pretty flexible as to which way I go
    with automation control.


    Best regards,
    Dennis, Jan 23, 2005
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  2. My guess is that as a grid tied inverter has to give a very good quality
    sine wave output, X10 will work just fine.

    John Beardmore, Jan 23, 2005
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  3. Some devices will operate with signals in the 50mv range (radio shack) and
    most operate in the 100mv range. This operates on a carrier frequency to
    send data (I think it is digital). Systems like this have been around since
    the early 80's from radioshack and some are X10 compatable.
    Robbie McFerren, Jan 23, 2005
  4. Dennis

    Steve Spence Guest

    I run an off grid home on a msw inverter. I'd be happy to test some x-10
    equipment for anyone.

    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust
    Steve Spence, Jan 23, 2005
  5. Dennis


    I've got a Trace SW4048 grid-tied system, and lots of X-10 devices. I
    found that my X-10 stuff works more reliably now, on the inverter, than
    they did when they were running directly off the grid.
    , Jan 23, 2005
  6. Dennis

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    X10 signals are transmitted just after the voltage waveform zero crossing.
    This is in order to avoid conflicts with SCR and Triac peak waveform
    switching spikes from load type devices such as lamp dimmers.
    Gymmy Bob, Jan 24, 2005
  7. Dennis

    m II Guest

    Gymmy Bob wrote:


    Wrong yet again, GymyBobbit. They send the 120khz waveform PRECISELY at 0
    degrees...and then again twice later in the 180 degrees of the half wave.


    The X10 protocol apparently sends signals at the zero crossing of the AC
    line voltage and then at 60 degrees and at 120 degrees after that (in other
    words, three times every half cycle corresponding to the zero crossing of
    the other two phases). This is designed to make X10 compatible with three
    phase power situations.


    My 'GymyBobism' collection...updated daily:
    ## some '#' bracketed text added for clarification ##
    ## all cut and paste, NO modifications of ANY kind ##
    ## 100 % Pure GymyBob. Accept no substitutes! ##

    We need less morons like another clone of Moron II here.
    ## My fifteen minutes of FAME! ##

    You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
    talking about...LOL

    Voltage does not indicate state of charge well.

    At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

    Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

    Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

    Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

    Many people have browsers that economize the download

    Just another threading error creating confusion

    Learn how to thread or sit back and watch for a few years.

    Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

    Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread

    Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
    available cheap like OE

    Another Forte Agent person that doesn't understand threading.

    You use Mozzilla and haven't learned to thread.

    Try Outlook Express so you can understand threading maybe.

    I have been noticing many threading errors everywhere on Usenet lately.

    People with OE don't seem to have the petty problems with subject
    lines changing, intermingled posts and downloading binary files with mixed
    posts, random pieces and many other problems all the nonOE people have.

    Bottom posting has been obsoletely by threading browsers.

    Forwarding does not include headers.

    Call your damn ISP and tell them your browser is multiple posting.

    90% of the people in America have never operated a computer.

    Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
    14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
    volt DC battery.

    I think outside opinions are worth much more than sales hype from the
    company that made the product.
    ## Referring to *factory* charging specifications for the batteries they
    make ##

    This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

    You can get fooled with another ground in the house finding it's way back to
    the transformer neutral.

    A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a

    Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
    on the time duration.

    Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
    replaced for any warrantied usage.

    If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
    honoured after that.

    I don't have a link at this time

    There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
    flammable either.

    Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry

    Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

    NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

    Oh yeah, I can charge a battery and use it six months later fully charged.
    The nicads will be cooked because you keep them on charge, just in case you
    need them but when you remember them six months later they are cooked and
    won't last 5 minutes in the camera.

    It takes a complete idiot to deny they can short out all by themselves.
    Three, loose in a bag can short themselves out.
    ## referring to AA batteries doing the physically impossible ##

    Did they have electricity back in 1994?

    I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
    1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
    (no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

    NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
    screws on a metal surface.

    There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
    more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
    The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
    100 nanoseconds?
    100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
    oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
    OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
    bulb for 1 second.

    The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

    Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

    Children are venerially created.

    If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go **** yourself like your
    mother did.

    Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

    Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

    I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
    save $3/hour

    I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
    a medium size electrical utility.

    As a design engineer of transformers for 10 years I happen to know you are
    full of shit.

    I am a Protection & Control Tech by profession and have experience with
    control systems

    Try spelling "bus" correctly! Maybe your brain will start again. Probaby
    not, you fucking loser.
    ## Referring to the correctly spelled word 'buss' as used in real electrical
    terminology ##
    ## http://tinyurl.com/5ctml ##

    X10 signals are transmitted just after the voltage waveform zero crossing.
    This is in order to avoid conflicts with SCR and Triac peak waveform
    switching spikes from load type devices such as lamp dimmers.
    ## control module misinformation ##

    Besides when they on any line they will pull of the meter as a disconnect point.
    ## speaking of power line guys miles away removing YOUR electrical meter for
    THEIR safety ##

    My workplace has been throwing out huge digitizing pallettes (like 24 x 36"
    ## in alt.sewing.mach-embroider ##

    The majority prefers top posting.

    Not one of your suggesters listened to what the OP requested...LOL

    Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

    Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
    does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

    A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten

    Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
    horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally

    Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
    exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

    Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

    Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

    Cell modems do not cut off anything.

    What security flaws.
    ##referring to Outlook Express##

    10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
    US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

    The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

    The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
    copper and nobody wants it.

    Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
    per pound, if he seperates it all.

    Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

    Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to

    Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
    take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

    I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
    almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

    50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
    would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
    current scrapper.

    Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
    single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

    BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
    easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
    impregnations go into it.

    All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

    Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
    pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
    ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
    connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

    Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
    never did.

    Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

    I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
    frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

    Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
    in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

    There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
    sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
    centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
    the confusion the US caused.

    Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
    capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
    the electrolyte is an insulator.

    Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

    If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

    I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf.
    ## referring to 4000mfd caps ##

    Sometimes it is an ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come
    and beg for information because they can't our toys do what the good guys
    can but I would never hire them given a choice.

    Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
    with you.
    ## referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread ##

    My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
    They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

    Enlighten please (like it really matters...LOL)

    I will hand stitch my embroidery before I would pay that kind of money...LOL

    A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
    same VA capacity.

    Does it test CTs with real current or just voltage?

    It doesn't really matter where the secondary current comes from, secondary
    exciting or primary current exciting, the voltage developed or excited
    across it will be about the same.
    ## talking about an OPEN circuit CT transformer ##

    High voltage spikes want to keep going at the end and this is where your
    saturating core transformer core is located behind the fuse.

    Moving a kill-a-watt unit around is like using it on somebody else's house
    and telling the person's load.

    oooops. A flourescent with a filament?
    ## not knowing how most fluorescents start up ##

    You are a stupid basterd.

    Ever considered anxiety medication? Chest pains for a man is a classic symptom.

    When confronted with many websites stating the otherwise he won't address
    the issue but repeats his crap again like a child stamping his feet.
    ## Oh, the Irony! ##

    What are you doing up at this ungawdly hour? I just got finished
    embroidering about 10 items, including a flight bag for golf clubs.
    ## in alt.sewing.mach-embroider ##

    I just love women with front loading bobbins.
    ## in alt.sewing.mach-embroider ##

    I doubt a 6 needle machine would be faster than a 1 needle machine unless
    you do repetitive patterns.
    ## in alt.sewing.mach-embroider ##

    I had many problems with this and damaged my machine a few times. It was the
    needles. Find ones that have very little "hip" bump around the eye of the
    ## in alt.sewing.mach-embroider ##

    I have found doctors absolutely ignorant and totally obstinet on these kind
    of issues.

    I put my first child on Ritalin for a year or so when quite young. It beat
    going to prison for beating him black and blue.

    I made a big mistake and should have "drugged" all of my children the same.

    I did the chem.cut medication stuff for a few years with my first child and
    then found Naturopathic Doctors using homeopathy to get more lasting relief.

    Homeopathics saved me thousands of dollars for operations I did not have on
    my children

    Accupunture worked for my 1 and two year old children for ailments after the
    medical doctors could do nothing for.

    Placebo is a completely natural cure for many ailments.

    Polio Vaccine? They stopped giving that one long before HIV was invented.

    You have no idea what you are talking about and either does anybody else here.

    See if you can replace it with a thermal acting unit. They have a rachet on
    a shaft that holds thew contacts closed.
    ## confusing motor overload with breaker ##

    What are you doing in my group?

    Milk is just plain poison for humans.

    I am not a chemist but I know that cow's milk calcium molecules are a huge
    irritant to human digestion and usually results in calcium deficiencies

    See an accupunturist for the pain and circulation
    See a chiropractor to keep the structure good.
    See a naturopathic doctor for the chemical imbalance.
    See a medical doctor for a some poison that will make her life shorter.

    Even an honest Doctor will take yoy they arte totally ignorant of nutrition.

    The medical doctors will play the time game and probably just let him die
    after removing half his organs because they may be a problem.

    Some things mankind should just not eat too much of and it isn't meat
    typically and this may not be consistent for all people.

    Do not listen to the stories of addiction. Yes, they are tough to stop but
    so is insulin for a diabetic. I have stopped taking mine and it wasn't that
    bad but after months of regressing I chose to return like the other half the

    Make sure your wrists are well warmed up before putting sudden jerky
    movements to them.

    Make up your mind before you mouth off like the usual Internet piece of
    shit. This is a rough group and if you had followed the usual
    recommendations you would have known that and have nothing to say about it.
    ## in misc.kids.health, alt.support.breast-implant, misc.health.alternative ##

    Bad practice to ground yourself when working on electronics. It increases
    the chance of injury or death by electrical shock and also increases the
    chance of static discharge to the circuit chips. Ground is a potential too.

    Oink...Oink...just take it out. What could be simpler?
    ## in soc.support.fat-acceptance, alt.support.big-folks ##

    No hyphen in the word multi-syllabic.

    ## Gymy Bob's endorsement of anal sex censored##
    ## sorry, I have my limits ##

    A complete fucking idiot spurted out his piehole:
    ## in misc.health.alternative ##

    I was born depressed and never realized until about 3 years ago. I am 52 and
    went for medication because of anxiety.

    The English can't stand each other, let alone other cultures.
    If you don't believe me brother just ask the rest of my family that I

    I find most Americans likeable and they find me likeable after they open
    their wallets far enough to make me that way.
    How many american dollars will it take to make you suck their dicks?
    ## in alt.support.attn-deficit, misc.health.alternative ##

    How much for a blow job?

    Believe me, "America" is so far behind on internet usage over many South
    American countries. They just don't happen to post in English and not many
    of you could possibly understand other languages even exist.

    WTF is CBT? Chekaslovakia Book Therapy?

    Try your left hand. It feels like somebody else's hand sometimes.
    ## pdaxs.services.massage, misc.health.alternative, alt.backrubs,
    alt.health.massage-therapy ##

    Pehaps magnesium supplementation would allow these buffoons to utilize some
    of their already overloaded calcium intake.

    This guy is a total buffoon and has no knowledge of any part of his own

    Where should you shove it?

    Fish oil is mainly responsible for your placebo also.
    ## in misc.health.alternative##

    After disassembling Bill Gates' 6800 Basic back in the 70s I knew he was a
    dirty software scoundrel.

    The government makes more on the taxes than the tax rate when this is done.

    Be blabest tofart.
    ## ???? in alt.comp.periphs.dcameras ##

    Blood may be kept at a stable 7.4 pH but a piece of copper wire passes
    electricity through it even though the number of electrons remains constant.
    ## in misc.health.alternative ##

    I have had amazing effects from some homeopathic remedies and others did

    These homeopathic know-it-alls drive me crazy with their 1880 knowledge.

    Sorry, but testing has proven homeopathic remedies to be effective remedies.

    I have taken a few homeopathic remedies that taste like crap. Funny how pure
    water could do that.

    Homeopathic remedies are very toxic substances and used because of their
    toxic properties.

    Standard homeopathic science.

    Your ignorance of homeopathy does not mean it is useless.

    Everybody always follows the screaming, left-wing, maniac, tooting we are
    all going to die by doing another therapy.

    I have had achilles tendonitus for the past 2-3 years now. I got rid of it
    on one side by grinding out the bones spurs underneath with the side of a
    screwdriver blade and lots of oil.


    It doesn't matter how well it works if the doctor doesn't say so (with his
    two years of college) then it just ain't so.

    Heat pumps are 300% efficient when the weather is fine but the compressor
    motors? hmmm about 60%.
    m II, Jan 24, 2005
  8. X10 does not work when the house is running solely on my Trace SW.
    Works fine when the grid is present.

    Sylvan Butler, Jan 24, 2005
  9. "grid tied" with or without a battery bank?

    If you do have a battery bank, try turning off your main grid breaker
    and try the X10 then.

    Knowing the shape of the SW output waveform, I'm very suprised if the
    X10 stuff works when powered by the inverter. But if you have no
    battery bank, that never happens.

    Sylvan Butler, Jan 24, 2005
  10. Dennis

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Can you please trim your trolling crap? You are obviously a moron and you
    keep repeating it here.
    Gymmy Bob, Jan 25, 2005
  11. Dennis

    m II Guest

    Gawd, you're so transparent. You also plonked me a while back , so you'd
    have NO way of knowing what I'm posting. I'd appreciate you not using my
    name in your juvenile revenge attacks.

    This stuff is really easy to stop. Merely stop posting your understanding of
    the world as FACT.

    I also see how you've managed to antagonize people in just about every group
    you go to. Did you ever consider, just ONCE, that perhaps it's YOU?

    That was a rhetorical question.

    m II, Jan 25, 2005
  12. It's you too:

    William P.N. Smith, Jan 25, 2005
  13. Dennis

    Dennis Guest

    Thanks to all for the replies. I feel safer going forward than I did before

    Best regards,
    Dennis, Jan 28, 2005
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